Witcher 3 needs a combat overhaul

[prince_of_nothing]

Witcher 3 needs a combat overhaul

While I've always loved the Witcher series for it's deep and engaging storyline, memorable characters, settings etcetera, the more I play the Witcher 3, the more I hate the combat.

While it's not bad per say, it definitely needs a full overhaul. I've died several times because Geralt auto targeted someone/something I didn't want to attack. Not really a problem when you're fighting a small number of enemies. But with lots of enemies on screen, it becomes problematic. And despite the massive increase in attack speed over the Witcher 2, Geralt is STILL too slow for a Witcher. And the ridiculous pirouettes makes him even slower. No swordsman would ever use such an unnecessary movement in battle, as it just increases exposure.

And it's really tough to pull off combo strikes because there's no indication for timing. All in all, the combat just isn't fluid and it doesn't feel natural.

It DOES require strategy though, especially in higher difficulties. But strategic doesn't equal fun. Gameplay is perhaps the most important element of what makes a game enjoyable. A game can have an uninspiring storyline, but if it has great gameplay, it will more than make up for it. Doom 2016 is a great example of that. I don't even care about the storyline, I just want to murder hordes of demons!

But with the Witcher 3, the storyline takes center stage, and the actual gameplay is the sore point. The first time I played the game, the combat mechanics never really bothered me. But that's probably because I'd been craving the game for years, and when I finally had it in my hands, I just wanted to play it. Plus the storyline was very engaging.

But with B&W, although I'm loving the storyline so far, the combat mechanics has started to annoy me with how clunky Geralt feels..

Anyone else feel this way?

 

[aozgolo]

It's a bit of "Your Mileage May Vary" to be honest, I personally have no problems with the combat, it's challenging, but not due to scrappy mechanics, but legitimate challenge. I am sure some things can still be tweaked, but I hardly see the system as needing a total overhaul. Auto-targetting enemies I've found really only useful when fighting 1-on-1, I never use it in group combat, ever, and it works fine. The flourishes and flashy combat maneuvers Geralt performs may be a little unrealistic, but that's a very deep rabbit hole to start going down, let's stick with what's fun to see before we start chastising Witchers for wearing swords on their back.

It does take some getting used to I will admit, but I don't see it as needing drastic changes, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Walster]

The combat isn't that bad, I managed to finish the game on Death March without blaming the combat for dying.

The one thing that could be better is responsiveness, sometimes the buttons don't work as fast you'd like and switching spells and bombs could be faster too

 

[fluffybuffy]

I will never get the complains about the combat in the Witcher games.
Never had problems from 1 to 3. More or less, greatly enjoyed the combat.
Maybe it's because i'm an old fart and used to "adopt or die" from back in the days of gaming and not the todays standard "don't like/get it, rage on the the Internet" - no offense to OP, just general observings

 

[prince_of_nothing]

It's not a question of whether I find the combat difficult or challenging, because I don't. Right now I'm playing NG+ and Geralt is level 72...

The problem is, that the combat isn't fluid, and Geralt is too slow and clunky. I can work around these issues easily, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be improved.

 

[Ramon242]

After coming back from the recently released Dark Souls 3, I have to say TW3's combat falls somewhere between bad and average. It's legitimately frustrating at times. Not being able to free-aim is such an odd choice for combat. There's been a couple of occasions where Geralt will swing at a far-away target while I have another right in my face. General animations feel clunky too.

Combat state is also completely unnecessary. It should be triggered by Geralt holding a sword in his hand, not by aggro'ing at enemy. It feels similar to an MMO in that sense where your movement is restricted if you're engaged in combat. Speaking of movement, Geralt's walkspeed in his combat-ready stance has always felt awful. I won't rant any further about it. CDPR won't ever change it, and modders have done nothing to fix it. The Witcher trilogy will forever be known for having bad-to-average combat mechanics. A shame really, because everything else about the game is great.

 

[Tuco]

While it surely wouldn't hurt (and there's a lot of room for improvement) it's a bit weird this sort of complaint is so insistent about TW3 when in fact it's the only one in the series with a half decent combat.

Personally, I think that if an overhaul would ever become a thing, it should be tied to several other tweaks:

-controls outside of combat (Dragon's Dogma is an ever better model than Dark Souls 3 in this sense; just running, jumping and climbing around feels so good and precise in that game).
- a complete re-tweak of the game's overall balance (too many low level areas/quests which simply have no reason to be so... well, low level).
- A revamped itemization/loot system (ideally one where equipment is not tied to level requirements anymore and scales less brutally in power, among the other things).

 

[sidspyker]

Personally, I have not really enjoyed or at least felt indifferent to combat in 90% of the RPGs, always saw it as a means to progression. TW2, TW3 and Dragon Age Inq are some of the few 'traditional' RPGs where I did find the combat was enjoyable. There are improvements that one can make to be sure, the first thing that comes to mind is Geralt's movement speed while in combat followed by difficulty curve adjustments

But anyway, I think there's more at play here because there's different schools of thoughts and different people like different things. For example, one school is that which prefers that the person who carefully invested in their skills and buffs/potions and basically micromanage everything should be rewarded for their effort. Other school is sort of saying that regardless of how you did the stats or buffs, if you are good, persistent and patient then you should be rewarded for it. I think Witcher games fall into hybrid in that regard where both approaches meet halfway.

I wouldn't say it needs a total overhaul but a lot of elements can be improved, depending on what you consider improvement and what kind of a player you are and what your bias leans towards - active combat, passive combat to put in two broad groups.

 

[vesemas228]

Some tips:

- Dodging is often the first move in combat.
- Blocking is for human enemies only and is quite fun.
- Take a look next fight, the enemy you're about to attack (or will swing at) is the one with the healhbar visible. This actually changes depending on where your mouse is pointing, so if you get in the middle of pack of monsters and you find yourself swinging at the wrong one, move the mouse around and keep yourself centered on the one you want to kill. Knowing you can control this makes life so much happier.. and possible to play the harder difficulties.
- You have to memorize the keys and function of witcher signs. No way around this. You have to learn which button makes fire, shield etc. Id recommend a mmo/moba mouse. The quick menu is dumb, ive never tried to use it.

Thats it though.

If you go into a fight with a slowly increasing frequency of button mashing the feedback the game returns you is tension, suffering and you die. Witcher 2 combat was a bit like that.. Witcher 3 is the enemies actually exist alongside you in the world. Its not a mash mechanic.

The core is super fun, if anything its not deep enough.. ie, some sort of combo system or deeper set of moves would have been alright.

 

[verdwhisper]

The combat can be improved, indeed, but, what does an overhaul do exactly? Please be specific. The soft lock mechanics should be optional, the swordplay could use more animations, it would also benefit if monsters have more moves and more aggressive, the difficulty curve could be balanced a little more, you should be able to parry and jump at anytime (even on horses). Alchemy can be a bit more hardcore, and drink animations. But besides these minor details, the combat is great in its core. First, I imagine it is how Geralt fights in the lore. 2nd, strategic, it needs patience, you simply cannot just jump into groups of enemies and smash buttons and win (with proper difficulty and level scaling). 3rd, knowledge, you need to understand your opponents and your advantages, such as potions, oils and bombs. 4th, it makes sense (more often than not), you don't swing or roll with big ass weapons that clip into the groud, you don't attack 5 times and be like, that's it, I cannot do it anymore, you don't roll into your enemies faces and get away with it, you don't block blows froms dudes that's maybe 10 times bigger than you, etc. 5th, it is more about taste, witcher combats shines when it does not follow other games mindlessly. Just my 2 cents.

 

[GerardofRiviera]

I think the combat is great, especially coming from the 1st 2 games, you can see how it has evolved. I think it's easier if you use tactics and plan your attacks accordingly instead of just smashing the attack buttons when surrounded by multiple enemies, I will usually draw one out and away and finish them off 1 at a time, usually trying to dispatch archers first.

 

[PillarBiter]

The combat is not like other games, because the game is not like other games.

Simply put, the designers wanted to do something different witch witcher 3 combat than, say dark souls. If you play it like DS, you're going to be dissapointed, obviously.

I really like W3 combat, because it isn't simply button mashing.



PS: i've seen this: "auto targeting sucks" argument for over a year. I've played thorugh the game almost thrice, and can never remember an instant where I was attacking the wrong person.... But I always use free-aim mode. Learn to use that.

 

[Smurfin]

I love the combat but it gets frustrating sometimes when a lot , I mean A LOT of savegame loadings are involved. One day it got me thinking what did I do wrong, was it my build, why my Geralt died so easily, then I started to farm more gold to upgrade to grandmaster griffin sets, and whoa Geralt is so badass. I still die every once in a while though, but that just tells me that I need to keep moving be it offensive or defensive even though I've upgraded lots of things.

The combat is fun and challenging because it's fast paced but I can actually see enemy movements and react accordingly, it feels good to be able to dodge or parry and counterattack, oh and the new features rock, but yeah I agree it can be clunky at times especially the targetting and camera view, it's hard to aim a specific target, maybe because once we do an action the game will execute it till it's done and cannot be cancelled or respond to other action. What annoys me the most is when the combat happens in small area. Geralt needs to keep moving but in small area with some objects in it sometimes make Geralt stuck, and the camera view is annoying too. The game is too focusing on Geralt and sometimes blocks the view/camera, it should auto zoom out a bit in small areas or when wallls are supposed to be blocking our view, but instead it zooms in Geralt and the fov becomes limited.

tldr
I love the combat mechanic and every enemy encounter always feels dangerous, but camera view in small area and targetting need a bit work around.

 

[prince_of_nothing]

"sigh"

People seem to think that "complaining" about the combat system, must mean I am doing it wrong, or I suck or whatever. Well I'm not doing it wrong. I don't find the combat system challenging at all to say the least, and I don't need any tips.

But since some of you asked for specifics, I'll list some, although I already did in my OP. Here are my top issues with the combat system:

1) Geralt moves too slow. I find it ironic that whilst they had no problem implementing his pirouettes from the book, they still cannot duplicate his speed.

2) Geralt has needlessly long or complicated combat animations that simply slow him down even more. Yes I understand that the pirouettes are canon, but they just make his attacks even slower. If they want to implement pirouettes, they should make them faster.

3) The soft lock feature is serviceable for battles with small groups of enemies, but for battles with large groups of enemies, it breaks down and Geralt will often target an enemy you did not want him to attack. This is especially noticeable in B&W, where Geralt has to face off against multiple enemies in some fairly large battles.

4) The combat animations aren't smooth and fluid, but are instead quite jarring and repetitive.

5) Combos are overly difficult to pull off due to very strict timing requirements.

6) Oh, and my favorite. For whatever reason, Geralt cannot seem to parry or counter humans with two handed weapons like mauls, pikes etcetera.

 

[Smurfin]

That's why I enchanted both steel and silver swords with Severance for more range to aoe whirl and it does wonder in large battles to overcome the difficulty in aiming specific target.

 

[EliHarel]

I feel kinda the same, prince. When playing WH for the first time I was too excited to finally get my hands on the game, like you, to be too critical. HoS had varied enough combat encounters in a game that didn't extend for long for me to not notice. But every since returning a week or so ago to get ready for BaW, the combat did feel less enjoyable to me then it did a year ago. This is just discussion for the sake of it now, I don't expect anything to be changed.

The comparison to FROM's games is a bit tricky because the games focus on different things. But saying they're "completely different" isn't true either. They have many similarities. BloodSoul's smaller fights with fewer enemies may not fit Geralt fighting half a dozen bandits, but they certainly do fit Geralt fighting one monster. I don't feel like comparing them directly now, though. There are things I would change about TW3's combat regardless of other games.

For starters, I'd make Geralt less slow in his combat stance. Speed is a fundamental advantage of witchers, and you don't commonly feel that Geralt enjoys it. Witchers are described in the books as being fiendishly fast. It's a primary reason for them being able to tackle monsters to begin with. Sure, the metabolism that allows potions help, but that's not nearly enough. It's why knights also fail often - all their heavy armor doesn't help for shit when a monster's claws rips through the metal. A witcher just dodges that claw altogether.

Secondly, and this actually might require an overhaul (theoretically) - Geralt's animations. I really, really dislike how often he spins. In the games it feels like flourish. I never imagined his pirouettes in the books as being there just for extravagant effect - it was usually to dodge a strike and quickly deliver a counter. It frustrates me when Geralt, when up close to an enemy, rarely slashes without doing a 360. Beyond the style that I find annoying, it also slows you down. The animations are actually a reason I love being caught between two enemies at a decent distance, because having Geralt jump back and forth from one to the other employs some of his more "no bullshit" moves. He just slashes and stabs really quick and to the point. And it still manages to look cool, simple as it is.

Some other things are much more difficult to describe. I never had a problem with the softlock, but I'd still remove it. What I do have a small problem with is riposting. Why, exactly, I can't explain, but I just know I'd like for it to be more responsive. Thinking about the Arkham games for example, I don't recall having annoying moments with riposting\counter-attacks. Before you jump the gun, yes, yes, I know there are many differences between the game - but there are also similarities, and using Arkham to give an example of smoother counter-attacks is a good reference. While I don't think Arkham's exaggerated animations of flying across a room to punch someone just to keep the flow would work with TW3, it still does close-quarters combat against multiple enemies quite well, allowing you to block, counter and dodge without much problem. Do I want Geralt to flip above enemies? Maybe not, but there is something to say about the smoothness.

I would also give i-frames to dodges, but since they are in the game functionally now with fleet-footed there is an option to have them (and I'm not playing without the skill at the moment - it's an anchor for me).

Another thing that comes to mind is giving Geralt more active actions and moves with his swords. Swordsmanship alone doesn't evolve much in what you do. The only things that come to mind are whirl and rend (and maybe blocking arrows, but that isn't exactly a new move - it just expands an existing one to more attacks). Gaining just 2 new active moves in a game that spans dozen of hours isn't good.

I gotta get going so can't write more now.

5) Combos are overly difficult to pull off due to very strict timing requirements.

What do you mean by combos, and what timing requirements?

 

[Smurfin]

If Geralt or Witcher 3's combat adopts the mechanic from Batman or Shadow of Mordor for example, it'd be too easy. In Shadow of Mordor, we can 'tank' a lot of enemies as long as we timed it correctly, once we press the button at the correct time it will do a block and counterattack. I remember tanking a horde in Shadow of Mordor with perfect timing for a period of time before I messed up and ended up dead lol.

In W3 we have to keep moving and position Geralt out of harms way but at the same time have to be able to deliver damage to kill the enemies. The same battle is sometimes hard but some other time it's easy.depending on how we position Geralt. Different builds is also a factor. There are so many scenarios on how Geralt finishes a battle.

Also Geralt's speed is slightly noticeably different when equipped with different type of armors.

 

[moonknightgog]

And the ridiculous pirouettes makes him even slower. No swordsman would ever use such an unnecessary movement in battle, as it just increases exposure.

Except that Geralt use them.

 

[prince_of_nothing]

What do you mean by combos, and what timing requirements?

If Geralt FAST attacks an opponent and scores a hit and you fast attack again in a very small time frame after that hit was scored, then he will do a combo hit with a different animation which is much faster than if you had missed the time window, which essentially forces you to repeat the first animation. If you do a third consecutive hit but with a STRONG attack this time in the small time frame, he will use a completely different animation (jumping in the air and doing an overhead chop) which looks very fluid and connected with the first two fast attacks.

However, this can be pretty difficult to pull off on a regular basis, because the timing requirements are very strict. If you miss the timing requirements, Geralt will either repeat the animations for fast attack, and then launch into his regular or flourished strong attack which costs more time.

Except that Geralt use them.

Which is fine. I understand the appeal of the lore and all. But if they are going to implement flourishes or pirouettes, then they need to be FAST so as to not disadvantage Geralt when he executes them!

 

[liechen]

as someone who just come back from Dark Souls 3, I'd say in average Witcher 3 combat is quite great. It has its flaws like locking, BUT so does DS3, cause I definitely remember getting a spear through my character against Soul of Cinder because the bloody locking system release its tracking making my char turn around and kindly open his back to the boss.

And please don't use Arkham/Shadow of Mordor battle system as comparison, those two has worse locking system, Batman can punch randomly over 3-4 different enemies BUT that won't show how bad the locking system since the game would auto correct your punching move so every punch connect.
DOES CDR need a better combat system developed? YES. Was the combat system in Witcher 3 bad? NO