Witcher magic powers/signs question

[Tuchi]

Witcher magic powers/signs question

now this is perplexity i have not only for the games but expecially with the books too

why our magic powers are so limited? why witchers only posses a bounch of very basic magic powers? but let me explain

nwitcher are mutants, they are created to be killing machines hunting monsters. sometimes this monsters are super strong and posses magic powers to some extent like for example bruxas or succubus or very powerfoul wraights/spirits like the wild hunt etc. witcher are mutated to be super strong,agile,quick etc. compared to a normal human and also way more resilient to damage,immune to diseases etc. also they age very slowly, so slo in fact that they can be compared to elves and even mages. we know that the mutation grants them magic powers,since thay can use the signs, and witcher can improve the power of those signs if they focus more on them. so why they do not posses powers similar to mages in the end? i mean why Vaesemir for example wich is super old, older than yannefer and way older than triss still have basic magic powers like all other witchers? why does gearlat that's now more than a century old and also older ( albeit by not mutch) than yennerfer? i mean they have the magic skill,they have time and they obviously are not stupid since they have a comprhension of alchemy and mutagens that's sometimes way above the everyday mage, they spend all the time since they are very little to train at Kaer Mhoren the art of the sword and the lore of the monsters they will hunt, and also alchemy for witcher elixir AND magic to learn the signs...so why exactly do they stop at some point? why don't they kke training in the magic department to so they can be super powered swordsmans AND ultra skilled mages? woulden't this eliminate any sort of treat even from very strong monsters like the one i listed above? woulde'nt theyr job be mutch easier and also theyr general life too? a mage is seen as someone who could easily kill a dragon with the right spell and yet they are complete tools that can be killed by a single strike at the right moment ( seee vilgefortz for example) immagine how insanely strong someone like letho or geralt could be with the powers of a mage? they don't have to be villgefortz level powers even a level of power like the one of triss or below would transform any ordinary witcher in an almost invincible foe, i repeat, immagine someone like geralt o re letho! so again, why non of the witchers ever tought about this and instead they keep letting those mages insulting them and stuff?

 

[Corax]

The books draws a line between signs and magic. Signs are low level spells that only requires a gesture and concentration while magic is more complex.
Casting magic require that the person can draw power from the elements and most witchers can't do that, including Geralt. So it makes perfect sense to me that the witchers can't cast complex spells because they can't source the energy the need for the spells.

 

[Jimbob_2.1]

The books draws a line between signs and magic. Signs are low level spells that only requires a gesture and concentration while magic is more complex.
Casting magic require that the person can draw power from the elements and most witchers can't do that, including Geralt. So it makes perfect sense to me that the witchers can't cast complex spells because they can't source the energy the need for the spells.

pretty much this. Signs can be taught to pretty much anyone i believe, as long as they can form the correct symbol and concentrate well enough. True Magic requires a natural affinity for it in order to use it. Mutations alone aren't enough to give magical powers.

Hope this clears it up

 

[Tuchi]

pretty much this. Signs can be taught to pretty much anyone i believe, as long as they can form the correct symbol and concentrate well enough. True Magic requires a natural affinity for it in order to use it. Mutations alone aren't enough to give magical powers.

Hope this clears it up

oh i see. i tought even if they are pretty basic sign are still magic and so you have to be able to draw at least a bit of energy from the elments to do that. just less compared to spells. so you think everyone can do signs? like i don't know even paesants or thugs as long as someone teachs them how to do it? i mean it's still magic after all how can it be so simple to do them? and if it is why only witchers use them? and not also knights or soldiers? i'm really interested in this

 

[Jimbob_2.1]

oh i see. i tought even if they are pretty basic sign are still magic and so you have to be able to draw at least a bit of energy from the elments to do that. just less compared to spells. so you think everyone can do signs? like i don't know even paesants or thugs as long as someone teachs them how to do it? i mean it's still magic after all how can it be so simple to do them? and if it is why only witchers use them? and not also knights or soldiers? i'm really interested in this

Honestly, i'm not completely sure how it works i'm in the middle of re-reading the books but i don't think it's made particularly clear. They told triss that ciri couldn't use signs, so they obviously tried teaching her before the mutations, hence why i said mutations aren't necessary.

Now i think about i think at least a tiny bit of magical ability is required as in the previously mentioned example the witcher's were basically saying she can't be a source because she can't cast signs. However i don't think Witchers are chosen for having an aptitude for magic so it would seem that someone else could learn signs if they wanted to. Why aren't they taught to anyone else? My guess is the mages taught the to do it, after all they are the only ones who can make witchers so it makes sense they would teach them signs. We know the witchers are protective of their secretes so they probably wouldn't tell anyone and i wouldn't have thought that the mages would want to either.

So basically know one else can cast signs because nobody will teach them

 

[shawn_kh]

Witchers are not mages or sorcerers.
Sorcerers and sorceresses are born meaning their magical abilities are not created artificially. Witchers are created through training and mutations, but they do not posses the great magical capabilities of mages. Mages have their powers since they are born, but they get trained in order to be able to properly use their innate ability and draw more and more power.
Now if you have someone that is born a mage, then they go through mutations and training of Witchers, and then get trained as a mage, then you'd have a Witcher that is also as powerful as a mage. But there really is no need, since mages like Vilgefortz can kill even the best of Witchers like Geralt. If there is a fight to death between a powerful mage and a Witcher, my money is on the mage.

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

Adding a bit to what the others said, I also would consider how would a witcher with innate magical capabilities get trained properly to control his powers well.

They probably wouldn't be accepted at a school of sorcerers, so that only leaves finding some particular strong mage that can teach them, maybe Triss isnt good enough for that. Also, maybe mutations mess with any kind of talent for magic someone can have.

I think that ideally, outside of the official lore, a strong and efficient witcher school would probably be composed of pairs of a witcher and a mage , or mage-witcher, to go for difficult hunts, or getting rid of powerful curses.

 

[Tracido]

Adding a bit to what the others said, I also would consider how would a witcher with innate magical capabilities get trained properly to control his powers well.

They probably wouldn't be accepted at a school of sorcerers, so that only leaves finding some particular strong mage that can teach them, maybe Triss isnt good enough for that. Also, maybe mutations mess with any kind of talent for magic someone can have.

I think that ideally, outside of the official lore, a strong and efficient witcher school would probably be composed of pairs of a witcher and a mage , or mage-witcher, to go for difficult hunts, or getting rid of powerful curses.

I believe he has a bit of an argument about this with a sorcerer who knows of Geralt's family past, it's in book 3, was before something crazy happened and he went madly searching for you know who. The official lore is pretty interesting, I'll have to double check some other chapters of note...

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

I believe he has a bit of an argument about this with a sorcerer who knows of Geralt's family past, it's in book 3, was before something crazy happened and he went madly searching for you know who. The official lore is pretty interesting, I'll have to double check some other chapters of note...

Now that you mention it I vaguely remember something, I read all the books but my memory isnt well oiled for them

 

[shawn_kh]

Geralt's mother was a sorceress called Visenna, but it looks like her magical abilities did not get passed down to Geralt. As far as I remember in the books Geralt can only muster up weak signs that any Witcher is capable of producing, and interestingly he uses them rarely as he prefers to use his sword. Plus Geralt was trained by Vesemir, and as Eskel mentions Vesemir is more of a swordsman than a magic or potion guy. Eskel said that Vesemir tried to teach them about potions and magic, but he himself lacks in those areas. Maybe Geralt has his mother's magical abilities, but there wasn't anyone suitable to tach him how to use them.

 

[Tuchi]

Witchers are not mages or sorcerers.
Sorcerers and sorceresses are born meaning their magical abilities are not created artificially. Witchers are created through training and mutations, but they do not posses the great magical capabilities of mages. Mages have their powers since they are born, but they get trained in order to be able to properly use their innate ability and draw more and more power.
Now if you have someone that is born a mage, then they go through mutations and training of Witchers, and then get trained as a mage, then you'd have a Witcher that is also as powerful as a mage. But there really is no need, since mages like Vilgefortz can kill even the best of Witchers like Geralt. If there is a fight to death between a powerful mage and a Witcher, my money is on the mage.

yeah but vilgefortz died...by the hand of geralt. and a little trincket was all that was necessary in order to kill him. in a fight not involving pure magic abilities mages are complete nobodies. even the mostu untrained thugs could kill the vast majority of them in a sword fight and for a witcher even the weakest it would be complete joke. a witcher that possess the powers of a full mage on the other hand is almost invincible.

now if we assume what has been said so far is all true. than Ciri and people like her are the best candidates to be this "neo Witcher" if we want, this superior version of a common witcher, she is born with magical abilities she is trained in witchers style of combat all she lacks are mutations and than what i described is complete. so if this is possible why not? the vast majorityes of mages are sterile anyway so why not addin the mutation and all the bvenefit coming from them to the already powerfoul magic powers? for someone like a mage is a win win situation wether for a normal person it has drwbacks ( the sterility being the most prominent) it still makes no sense. why using common people to create "lesser witchers" instead of using sources to creat demigod witchers if it''s not only possible but also the most advantaging situation for all the parts involved?

---------- Updated at 10:48 AM ----------

Adding a bit to what the others said, I also would consider how would a witcher with innate magical capabilities get trained properly to control his powers well.

They probably wouldn't be accepted at a school of sorcerers, so that only leaves finding some particular strong mage that can teach them, maybe Triss isnt good enough for that. Also, maybe mutations mess with any kind of talent for magic someone can have.

I think that ideally, outside of the official lore, a strong and efficient witcher school would probably be composed of pairs of a witcher and a mage , or mage-witcher, to go for difficult hunts, or getting rid of powerful curses.

but why? mages ARE the one who created witchers so why create a somewhat lesser version of the witchers and than despise them when they could create the REALLY ultimate klling machine? they could EVOLVE in the ultimate killing machine by mutating themselves. this makes no sense seeing how many mages have this great lust for power and god complex and at the same time even the strongest amongst them are so incredibly vulnerable to the simplest attacks if you manage to take them by surpriese ( thing wich is almost impossible if you are a witcher) again see vilgeforts and the way he died. i loughed my ass of for like half an hour when i first read how he dies. if he was witcher that would have never been possible.

 

[shawn_kh]

yeah but vilgefortz died...by the hand of geralt. and a little trincket was all that was necessary in order to kill him. in a fight not involving pure magic abilities mages are complete nobodies. even the mostu untrained thugs could kill the vast majority of them in a sword fight and for a witcher even the weakest it would be complete joke. a witcher that possess the powers of a full mage on the other hand is almost invincible.

now if we assume what has been said so far is all true. than Ciri and people like her are the best candidates to be this "neo Witcher" if we want, this superior version of a common witcher, she is born with magical abilities she is trained in witchers style of combat all she lacks are mutations and than what i described is complete. so if this is possible why not? the vast majorityes of mages are sterile anyway so why not addin the mutation and all the bvenefit coming from them to the already powerfoul magic powers? for someone like a mage is a win win situation wether for a normal person it has drwbacks ( the sterility being the most prominent) it still makes no sense. why using common people to create "lesser witchers" instead of using sources to creat demigod witchers if it''s not only possible but also the most advantaging situation for all the parts involved?.

It took Geralt (the best of Witchers) , Yennefer (very powerful mage), and Regis (very powerful vampire) to kill Vilgefortz, and in the process Regis died and Yennefer was wounded badly. Vilgefortz gravely wounded Geralt and left him half dead during their first encounter. Geralt would have died many times, if a sorceress hadn't healed him. Witchers heal faster, which is is helpful but it doesn't make them invincible.
You don't have to be a Witcher to be a good sword-fighter, as Bonhart is one of the best swordfighters in the world of the Witcher. Mages can train in sword-fighting , but becoming a Witcher is not logical. First of all most of the candidates die in the process, so there is a slim chance you'd survive. It is a very painful process, which leads to many complications other than infertility. Not all mages are sterile as you said, but 100% of the Witcher are. And Witchers are not common people to begin with, they must have had extremely high physical and mental tolerance to survive the trials. Interesting that you brought up Ciri, because she is not a true Witcher as she did not go through the trial and mutations but she is still a very skilled sword-fighter. Triss prevented Ciri from going through the trial after she found out Ciri had strong magic aurora, because she most likely would have lost her life or womanly assets in the process. No one can be sure how the mutations affect a mage, and the mutations could even suppress the power mages possess.

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

but why? mages ARE the one who created witchers so why create a somewhat lesser version of the witchers and than despise them when they could create the REALLY ultimate klling machine? they could EVOLVE in the ultimate killing machine by mutating themselves. this makes no sense seeing how many mages have this great lust for power and god complex and at the same time even the strongest amongst them are so incredibly vulnerable to the simplest attacks if you manage to take them by surpriese ( thing wich is almost impossible if you are a witcher) again see vilgeforts and the way he died. i loughed my ass of for like half an hour when i first read how he dies. if he was witcher that would have never been possible.

Mages created the witchers? I think I never read or heard that before. For what I remember, witchers create themselves with mutagens and training, all "science", not magic. Then you have the signs but those seem to be such low-level abilities that you dont even need to be a mage to do them, witchers dont even know how to draw power from elements and such to do signs, and they dont even need to it seems.

I don't think in the witcher lore its explained anyone can be mutated into being a mage, and thus get evolved like you are guessing.

Now changing subjects a bit, what you say about mages not training themselves better for having more abilities than just spells is interesting. I think that there are a few possible arguments, like for example:

1)Witchers get mutated when they are very young and so they kind of "embrace" the mutagens as a part of their organism development, which for how it sounds might imply not just any adult person can get the mutagens and suddenly turn into a witcher, or even get better, mutated in a positive way.

2)Even when children, many would-be witchers die in the process, so thats probably a risk no accomplished and uber powerful mage would want to take, I mean you mention the example of vilgefortz right? well If you were vilgefortz, an incredibly powerful person already, would you really just want to be even more powerful that bad, to the point you might lose it all and die from taking some mutagens? probably not, you already can "dominate" pretty much everyone, the risk doesnt seem worth it. Plus remember, turning into a witcher would make Vilgefotz more powerful to basically, well... frontal man to man/beast fighting, something perhaps not THAT desired for mages, I mention this cause Vilgefortz obviously did die searching for more power, but it was the gate of the worlds, travelling through time and dimentions, now that sounds more worth dying for. Maybe your magic can protect you a bit more from a mutagen-induced death, but its possible it cant fully prevent it.

3)Additionally, mages are not combat-oriented all the time, sure they are powerful and intend to become dangerous for a situation where thats needed, but they are usually behaving like royalty, engaging more in diplomacy and back-stabbing rather than frontal all-out war. Thats very different from witchers, who are supposed to be constantly living in danger, and are also traveling mercenaries and outcasts. Mages instead inhabit the more "civilized" part of the world, were battles are fought in different ways, not the witcher ways.

4)I remember some kind of bias in the witcher world in general against alchemy, especially against secret "legendary" stuff like the witcher mutagens, its unnatural, it "creates monsters", you know what I mean. Look at the real world, people altering themselves with surgery and stuff just for power/beauty are seen in general as weak psychologically, but also material, artificial, to a small degree of course, but its definitely "worse" than being just as good but purely natural. And people with talent? people who train a lot? those are forever praised, here and in the witcher world, and in that last one these groups fits mages nicely, magic even comes from elements, so its something "pretty natural". Mages would probably not want to become artificial monsters, mutants, or any kind of stuff similar, it'd automatically degrade their "social status" and honor/respect, especially because of the communities where they live, and the people they surround themselves with. Witchers dont give a fuck, they dont even get to choose actually.

5)Just good old delusion of pure superiority, various personality traits, and underestimation. Once again imagine what it is to be a mage, so much power, not just "killing" power, power to be beautiful, to create things out of nothing, illusions, etc., imagine how this immensely ego-boosting feeling can affect most mages' minds, they probably look at swords, punches, armors, like nothing, like some kind of antiquated artificial "newbie" crap reserved for the masses with no talent for magic or for being something better, with no value. Even when naturally an intelligent mage can probably realize "hey that guy fights hand to hand really great, much better than anything I can do in the same situation", he/she also likely ends up thinking "but lol, thats of course good for a petty common human that cant even begin to imagine what I can do, cant blame him for trying his best, I'll just keep moving mountains and creating beings out of nothing muahahaha"
Point is, many mages probably dont even consider the act of "perfecting" themselves, they dont even see it like that I bet. "Hands, weapons, science, or magic, hah, obviously nothing else in this world can compite against the power of magic, especially against a talented mage like me", and so other stuff becomes irrelevant, almost useless to their eyes. Vilgefortz might've been powerful, but his mind likely wasnt "perfect", and especially not perfect when it comes to being the ultimate killing machine, thing which I bet he didnt even wanted to be, or thought he needed to be.

Im pretty sure I had one more point I wanted to mention, but I forgot

Anyway my personal opinion is that it sort of can make sense that mages arent witchers, and witchers arent mages, at least in general, like usually, we talk a lot of speculation in this subject, maybe with some very special situations and conditions a witcher-mage can fit the lore nicely, but it seems like it'd be definitely the exception and not the rule or obvious thing to happen.

 

[shasiu]

In my opinion witchers get energy from potions (and probably amulets which are catalysts), when Geralt fight on bridge on Jaruga, he's not sure, he can use Aard, because he don't drink potions for long time (maybe someone give a quote).
Next, sign is very fast to use, but to use spell, mage must be ready, the more powerful spells need much more energy, mages get it from water veins, but witchers can't do that (only mages have these power).

Mages can mutate himself, but it's very hard and dangerous, only few can survive this. Mages are many less in the world than childs...

 

[sfinx]

why our magic powers are so limited? why witchers only posses a bounch of very basic magic powers? but let me explain

Because Geralt refused Vilgefortz offer

Witchers would be able to handle difficult spells, but they are masters of sword at the first place. They have extremely quick reactions, so their advantage is in hand-to-hand (or hand-to-tentacle) combat. So they just need few basic signs to gain some extra advantage, to replace shield, to control distance and for few other purposes. If they would want to learn powerful spells, I think they would need both hands (or legs ) and their concentration would be focused highly on spells - and I don't think they can effort it during witcher-style combat. And also I am not sure, but there can be a problem with potions, which they are using before combat.

 

[Tuchi]

5)Just good old delusion of pure superiority, various personality traits, and underestimation. Once again imagine what it is to be a mage, so much power, not just "killing" power, power to be beautiful, to create things out of nothing, illusions, etc., imagine how this immensely ego-boosting feeling can affect most mages' minds, they probably look at swords, punches, armors, like nothing, like some kind of antiquated artificial "newbie" crap reserved for the masses with no talent for magic or for being something better, with no value. Even when naturally an intelligent mage can probably realize "hey that guy fights hand to hand really great, much better than anything I can do in the same situation", he/she also likely ends up thinking "but lol, thats of course good for a petty common human that cant even begin to imagine what I can do, cant blame him for trying his best, I'll just keep moving mountains and creating beings out of nothing muahahaha"
Point is, many mages probably dont even consider the act of "perfecting" themselves, they dont even see it like that I bet. "Hands, weapons, science, or magic, hah, obviously nothing else in this world can compite against the power of magic, especially against a talented mage like me", and so other stuff becomes irrelevant, almost useless to their eyes. Vilgefortz might've been powerful, but his mind likely wasnt "perfect", and especially not perfect when it comes to being the ultimate killing machine, thing which I bet he didnt even wanted to be, or thought he needed to be.



all the points you made make perfect sense and now i realize why the internal logic of the witcher world makes sense in this regard, BUT it still makes no sense on a gerneral logic based on power hunger personalities like vigleforts SEEMS to be ( probably it's not at this point,seeing what you just explained) i just don't get why someone as strong as vilgeforts would NOT become even stronger and "the perfect being" too answer your question i surely would take the risk, any kind of risk to brak my limit and become even stronger, and this without ever stopping and being content . only like this you can achive the really god-like status many mages think thay already posses, when in fact mosto of the times this arrogance is laughable and without any real foundation. let me ask YOU a question now, similar to yours to me. if you could chose to be vilgeforts or Dr. Manhattan what would you chose? to me the answer is a no brainer. if i was vilgeforts i would not only risk everything to obtain the time/space power but using the dimensional/time travel power i would have travleled on ALL the elemental plains to capture a strong genie of every element and after subdoing the first i would have used a wish to become immortal,than using some advanced form of magic i would have sucked all the power and abilities/and or bind him to me in perpetum than i would have done the same with the other three elements and THAN beeing now already immortal and all powerfoul i would have used my knowledge in alchemy and magic to go even further, i would have studied the next level experiment used on geralt ( the stronger version of the erbs trial ) and i would have optimezed it for next level mutation to obtain a super witcher ( like what was tryng to do azar javed in the first game) than i would have mutated myself and use all my time to train to the limits my eternal mutaded body and mind. you say people that artificially enhance themselves are seen like weaklings compared to those who train hard and that mages feel superior becose of this. this is stupid. no, you train as hard as you possibly can AND use every single kind of possible external help to surpas the human limit and achive REAL power. or at least die tryng.you tell me mages look at witchers with pity becouse they are all mighty and are not forced to always brawl and fight in the dirt while they dwell in politics and schemes of power,and i can see this. but at the same time i tell you that someone like me looks at mages and see them as pitiful for all that wasted potential. what is the meaning of being a king when you can be a god? were is the joy in being able to create life and move mountains when you can create planets and move the moon? were is the joy in looking like vilgeforts a mere puny human that thinks is all powerfoul when you can be 10000000x stronger and looking like greg plitt? i mean would you really renounce to being this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGl_if3tXBc if it was in the realm of your possiblities? even a very slim chance? i would not, no matter how many risks, and how slim the chance, if i could achive this, human struggles to supremacy and all theyr petty squabble for human power and glory, all the court intrigues and and wars would man nothing, i would look at them like i look at a nest of ants floating on fucking mars where i would build giant ass glass cloks, and i refuse to think, i really do, that in the entire witcher universe there is no one, not a single one person,mage or not, that would not risk it to obtain in the end something like this,even a little step at a time having the right potential to begin with. that's why i don't understeand villgeforts and the objectives of him ( and all other mages for that matter) they strike me as petty and pathetic if not entirely meaningless and i don't get why they don't strive for more,but that's just me