Witchers, what about Linux?

[Debeet]

Witchers, what about Linux?

Left 4 Dead and Steam itself will be released soon on Ubuntu. Microsoft brought it to themselfs as Gabe Newell said he doesn't like the way they are going with Windows (you can read about it somewhere). CDPRED is releasing their games to MacOS. Evidently there is something going on the way to unmonopolitize M$. I think it's time for the gaming industry, including RED, to move on to free alternatives that many use (gamers too, dear companies!) like Linux (like mentioned Ubuntu). As a matter of fact, Valve programmers discovered that Left 4 Dead 2 performs better on Ubuntu (OpenGL is better than DirectX)! Details. So witchers, do you like penguins? Discussion on this matter is very welcome

 

[gab961111.59]

Would be pretty cool but, it needs to be a massive migration or nobody will change. Maybe valve don't like competition with windows.

 

[Aver]

They didn't say anything about TW, but they said that GOG won't support Linux because there are too many distributions of Linux and they would need new, huge tech support department just for Linux and they think that it wouldn't be profitable. So I bet that they think the same thing about TW.

And it's cool that L4D works better on Linux, but L4D would run even on my toaster - it doesn't even have any advanced graphical effects. I will be amazed if someone will do the same with Crysis 2 or Battlefield 3.

 

[username_3218976]

Witcher 2 is actually doing fairly well with Wine, I imagine Cedga will probably do better although in the end you'll just achieve the same result: http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=13079

Didn't even need to apply Winetricks according to some of those entries.

 

[volsung]

They didn't say anything about TW, but they said that GOG won't support Linux because there are too many distributions of Linux and they would need new, huge tech support department just for Linux and they think that it wouldn't be profitable. So I bet that they think the same thing about TW.

If they really said that, it's bullshit. Linux is an operating system kernel, and the system on top of most Linux-based OS's like Ubuntu is GNU. GNU/Linux can be delivered in a wide variety of forms, flavors, or distributions. Still they share the same kernel architecture, system calls, file system hierarchy (in most cases, Ubuntu is a horrible mess) and other important aspects. Whether a distribution provides its own user interface (Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Whatever...), package manager, etc, is totally irrelevant. GOG could distribute basic tarball files with instructions on how to unzip them for most general cases. And for games that support "Linux" they could do what the Humble Bundle does, and offer both versions.

People forget that Windows can also be in a variety of states depending on how much "damage" a person has caused to their system/registry by installing weird/unreliable software and/or third party DLLs, to name a few things.

Also, what about Android? Noone uses "Android" itself, but rather distributions or flavor of Android. When you use a phone or tablet from Samsung, Sony, HTC, Motorola, each include their own modified Android and still you don't see companies complaining about distributing their software on the Play Store.

Again, bullshit. If I could I would donate part of my time to repackage DOS games from GOG to be (more easily) run under GNU/Linux. DOS games just need to be extracted or "installed" from GOG's installer and then running the actual game is trivial under Linux with DOSBox.

BTW, Just recently I posted in this board (Playing Classic RPG's thread) a fix to an error in GOG's DOSBox config file for Betrayal at Krondor. It prevents you from correctly loading the CD music on any platform if you use their config file.

 

[SystemShock7]

If they really said that, it's bullshit. Linux is an operating system kernel, and the system on top of most Linux-based OS's like Ubuntu is GNU. GNU/Linux can be delivered in a wide variety of forms, flavors, or distributions. Still they share the same kernel architecture, system calls, file system hierarchy (in most cases, Ubuntu is a horrible mess) and other important aspects. Whether a distribution provides its own user interface (Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Whatever...), package manager, etc, is totally irrelevant. GOG could distribute basic tarball files with instructions on how to unzip them for most general cases. And for games that support "Linux" they could do what the Humble Bundle does, and offer both versions.

People forget that Windows can also be in a variety of states depending on how much "damage" a person has caused to their system/registry by installing weird/unreliable software and/or third party DLLs, to name a few things.

Also, what about Android? Noone uses "Android" itself, but rather distributions or flavor of Android. When you use a phone or tablet from Samsung, Sony, HTC, Motorola, each include their own modified Android and still you don't see companies complaining about distributing their software on the Play Store.

Again, bullshit. If I could I would donate part of my time to repackage DOS games from GOG to be (more easily) run under GNU/Linux. DOS games just need to be extracted or "installed" from GOG's installer and then running the actual game is trivial under Linux with DOSBox.

BTW, Just recently I posted in this board (Playing Classic RPG's thread) a fix to an error in GOG's DOSBox config file for Betrayal at Krondor. It prevents you from correctly loading the CD music on any platform if you use their config file.

+1 rep for you, Sir.
I was going to reply along the same lines, albeit not in the same tone

 

[Aver]

If they really said that, it's bullshit. Linux is an operating system kernel, and the system on top of most Linux-based OS's like Ubuntu is GNU. GNU/Linux can be delivered in a wide variety of forms, flavors, or distributions. Still they share the same kernel architecture, system calls, file system hierarchy (in most cases, Ubuntu is a horrible mess) and other important aspects. Whether a distribution provides its own user interface (Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Whatever...), package manager, etc, is totally irrelevant. GOG could distribute basic tarball files with instructions on how to unzip them for most general cases. And for games that support "Linux" they could do what the Humble Bundle does, and offer both versions.

But they would still need to make sure that game run on every single distribution. I doesn't matter that they are similar, have the same architecture etc. From what I have seen on GOG forums there were cases that game broke because removed one font from his system, there was case where game had messed up graphics because of sound drivers etc.. Those old games are really fragile.

And adding games that support Linux already wouldn't change nothing because GOG would still have to offer support for them. So it still would require them to invest in new support department.

You may disagree with GOG, but remember - as every company they look for profit. They just don't think that Linux is profitable. If something will happen in future and they will change their mind and consider Linux profitable then they would add support for it.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I don't think they need to make sure that the game runs on every single distribution. It's pointless. They can focus on several major core ones, for example at least on Debian/Mint/Ubuntu, Fedora and openSUSE. Even taking one first is a good start. Repackaging DEB RPM or flexible packaging is not a major barrier. I think they worry more about ABI changes, breaking, different set ups (like upcoming X11 transition to Wayland across distros and so on).

TheEnigmaticT from GOG said this:
http://www.gog.com/en/wishlist/site/add_linux_versions_of_games

We've seen a lot more of you guys voting on this wish recently and I thought it was only fair for me to update you. Linux is a great platform, and we love how much passion you guys are showing for it here on our wishlist. We definitely know that it's one of the top things our community wants from us, but it's also really difficult to bring the GOG.com level of support and ease-of-use to the wide variety of distros that are commonly used by Linux users. If we're able to bring GOG.com games to Linux--and we're constantly evaluating ways that we can do this--we want to make sure that we're doing it the GOG.com way: simple, easy, and it "just works." I'm not telling you guys to give up hope--we know how much you want this--but what I am saying is that this is harder to support than it might seem initially, and we're not ready to move to support Linux officially just yet.

Nothing was mentioned there about profits. They know there is a demand. They claim there are difficulties (either real, or perceived) to start supporting Linux. At some point I hope they'll have enough resources to start shipping some games without being over perfectioninsts in trying to provide support.

In regards to CDPR development, some rumors were circulating that they are working on porting their Red Engine to OpenGL (in addiction to Direct 3D). If that's true - adding Linux support would be much easier in their new games, if of course they design their engine with portability in mind (which should include more than just graphics, i.e. sound, network capabilities and so on). I hope they do and we'll see Linux ports of their future games eventually.

 

[volsung]

@Aver
You didn't quite read my post All POSIX compliant systems share a nucleus that unifies some things, like system calls. All linux-based systems are binary compatible, but problems may arise with the location or lack of libraries. Location-wise, that's what the filesystem hierarchy standard is for. Lacking or even messing up with a library can and does happen with Windows too, just take a look at the tech support section of this forum.
So in conclusion, they need not support specific distributions. Just make a damn tarball or shell script available to extract and/or install DOS games easily, with or without a bundled DOSBox. For Windows games that do not support GNU/Linux, screw that. For truly multiplatform games (like those in Humble Bundles) make all binaries available for download. Not THAT complicated.
I'm not asking them to port their entire catalogue (yet), just make things easier for DOSBox and Wine users in Linux, and to make Linux executables available whenever possible.
With porting TW2, I'd be glad to switch to OpenGL even in Windows. A native Linux version of this game and future CDP games is more significant than they imagine. As I said in another thread, there are many people with more than capable Linux workstations.

 

[Licaon_Kter]

@Gilrond: They are porting REDengine to OpenGL already for the announced Mac version... yeah a Linux version might just be a matter of interest+time+will... should I start a poll or something? Or maybe an online petition, yeah those solve stuff

@Aver: They don't need to support every distro out there, just like on Windows there are "sys requirements". They need to stop to a distro, say Ubuntu LTS ( long term support ) and yeah, support that version, meaning anyone that wants to play it needs to have at least those libs & drivers and etc (bundling static libs is an option, with it's good and bad after effects). For those games that use Dosbox it's even easier. Regarding bad video/sound drivers, if your system is broken don't come knocking. Other distros can be tackled with scripts, they just need a forum subsection for everyone to share they knowledge. It won't be sugar and flowers at first, but having Steam soon and Desura already there means GoG loses some clients every day.

Also, why on earth would you NOT let a fellow gamer enjoy some games on HIS/HERS platform of choice? Why does everyone need to have an opinion about a platform they don't use and otherwise care less about? Get over yourselves lads/lases, PLAY AND LET OTHERS PLAY!

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@Gilrond: They are porting REDengine to OpenGL already for the announced Mac version... yeah a Linux version might just be a matter of interest+time+will... should I start a poll or something? Or maybe an online petition, yeah those solve stuff

Did you ever see them talking about porting RED engine to OpenGL? I couldn't find sources for that. I surely hope it's true though.

Does CDPR have a wishlist?-) GOG does.

 

[Licaon_Kter]

Did you ever see them talking about porting RED engine to OpenGL? I couldn't find sources for that. I surely hope it's true though.

Does CDPR have a wishlist?-) GOG does.

here: http://www.thewitcher.com/community/entry/264
or everywhere else: http://is.gd/b1mwNz

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

The tricky part here - they didn't mention OpenGL. Can't they mean a Wine wrapper by "port" for Mac OSX? After all, that's what they did with the Witcher 1. I tried to find them talking about using OpenGL - but didn't find anything.

 

[Sirnaq]

Native games on linux perform better than their windows counterparts. Wine is just imperfect dx9 emulator. I don't know if im right but you can't run any dx10 games on wine. And opengl is not worse than dx if not better. Linux would be way better gaming os than windows only if more people would make games for it. Compatibility is the keyword here, im not sure if you can run all these old or older games on linux, i mean dos games and older dx games, on windows you can run everything with little dicking around. If i could run all or most of my games i have installed on my windows on linux, i would switch os already without hesitation.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Sure, native OpenGL would be better than any translation from Direct3D which Wine makes. But you can run tons of old games on Linux using Wine and DosBox. Wine App DB is a helpful resource: http://appdb.winehq.org

My approach - try to run anything on Linux first, even if it takes effort to configure Wine for some old games. I just don't like using Windows (I have none installed at home even).

I surely hope Witcher 3 won't be some DirectX 11 monster, since Wine doesn't support DX11 yet. In the best case it'll use OpenGL, and in the worst probably will be DX9 with Wine.

 

[GuyNwah]

Native games on linux perform better than their windows counterparts. Wine is just imperfect dx9 emulator. I don't know if im right but you can't run any dx10 games on wine. And opengl is not worse than dx if not better. Linux would be way better gaming os than windows only if more people would make games for it. Compatibility is the keyword here, im not sure if you can run all these old or older games on linux, i mean dos games and older dx games, on windows you can run everything with little dicking around. If i could run all or most of my games i have installed on my windows on linux, i would switch os already without hesitation.

Right; you cannot use DX10 with Wine. There were efforts made to implement DX10, but they were abandoned years ago. Any implementation you do find will be only partial. I very much doubt any implementation of DX11 will be coming anytime soon.

Unfortunately, the preferences of a few of us does not constitute a profitable market. If you are going to spend a million dollars on, say, a native port to OpenGL, your managers will properly shut you down unless you can prove 100,000 sales into a market that requires it. With Linux desktops at less than 2% of the market, that is a difficult case to make, no matter what its technical or social merits may be. Everything you do has to be for the purpose of making money.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Everything you do has to be for the purpose of making money.

Hehe, not at all. It's actually quite bad to think that money is a self goal.
This comes to mind: http://goo.gl/tewdT (watch from 33:03 to 39:19).

Of course the company needs to be sustainable. But values and ethics can vary greatly. Some are much worse than others.

Besides that, Linux on the desktop can be profitable, and there is a demand for Linux gaming with supply being lacking. Anyone working on that now will be filling the thirsty market, so there surely are opportunities for CDPR.

 

[gregski]

Besides that, Linux on the desktop can be profitable, and there is a demand for Linux gaming with supply being lacking. Anyone working on that now will be filling the thirsty market, so there surely are opportunities for CDPR.

Do we have any data on this one, besides, you know, your words? How big is the demand? What opportunities are there for a company? How big is the market?

These are the first questions any CEO would ask you before handing you money to make the port.

Values and ethics would come at the end.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Do we have any data on this one, besides, you know, your words? How big is the demand? What opportunities are there for a company? How big is the market?

These are the first questions any CEO would ask you before handing you money to make the port.

Values and ethics would come at the end.

Values and ethics should always be there. Examples:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/manifesto.en.html
http://manifesto.kde.org/

But speaking practically, any company will have to perform their evaluation. It's understandably harder for the Linux markets, since unlike proprietary OSes which can count licenses sold, it's pretty hard to count Linux user base. One thing is agreed though, that common evaluations are mostly underestimating (like web counters). I consider 2% to be a bogus number. So some can come up with smart methods to measure that. Some things are also targeted for creating more demand. I.e growing the gaming market on Linux will increase the demand itself.

See some review of this issue in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_adoption#Measuring_desktop_adoption

 

[GuyNwah]

2% is the high end of estimates; 1.4 to 1.6% is closer. It's not based on licenses sold, so that is not a foundation for believing it to be an undercount. It's based on Web activity, particularly identification of browsers used to hit counted Web sites.

The actual Linux user base is much larger, but that counts all those servers that aren't used for running desktop applications or games.

There is nothing in business ethics that requires you to lose money on a project or to serve a market that cannot offer a return on investment. Linux has to be a profitable market for game development, or it is not a market for game development.