Women of The Witcher [contains spoilers]

[Dona.794]

Women of The Witcher [contains spoilers]

IMPORTANT: Contains major spoilers from the game. Please make sure you finished the game on both paths or read at your own risk.
--

I made the first draft of this write-up a couple of months ago, tired of throwing passive-aggressive comments every time portrayal of women in The Witcher 2 was brought up. Somewhere along the way, I stopped writing because that 'something' was missing and I didn't feel there was a way to finish this article without it feeling incomplete. Yesterday, a rather informative .PDF of Marcin Iwiński's GDC '12 speech was posted, in which one of the sections was about target audience which clearly outlined: we are marketing this game to men.

And I ask this question: why? Women are active gamers as well, in fact, there are more female gamers over the age of 18 than male gamers under the age of 18. Since this is a mature, 18+game, don't you think it's a bit funny to not want to market the game to pretty large demographic?

There is still a huge stigma going on around female gamers, people thinking we are somehow less capable, that we need everything drawn out, prettified, simplified, that you need tore move sex and violence and replace it with fluffy sugar-coated romance to appeal to women. The reality is a bit different.

If we were to talk about The Witcher 2, specifically, I would say it is perfect in almost every way. It's appealing to both sexes, there's a bit of everything for everyone. Each and every character is well-written; there are strong women and weak men, the characters successfully avoid clichés and live a life on their own, they feel like real people with real hopes, dreams, failures, plans, very much like people you can meet in the real world.

So when someone asks "but how can you market this game to women?" I ask, how can you not? The book series has been around for over twenty years and they appeal to both men and women alike. The games follow the books quite faithfully, story-quality-wise, so there's no reason to suddenly forget the girls. The only, ONLY thing I found this game lacking is gender equality on the visual level. I will explain why, which will hopefully explain what can be done to make this game appeal to women just a wee bit more.

Characters excluded from this:
- The Sorceresses. Canonically, they use magic to conceal their age and modify their appearance to look extremely attractive. They are very manipulative and aren't afraid of using their looks to get what they want. This also helps them appear mightier and more authoritative in the eyes of common people. We can even find real life parallel for them in women who take extra care about their appearance, follow fashion trends (...just trying to explain why all Sorceresses wear similar clothes ) and put their looks before all to intimidate people.
- Creatures such as the Succubus who are mythological meant to be highly sexual creatures
- The Witcher 1 ladies. Let's not even go there.

The Witcher game series has come a long, long way since that game where you collected wanting girls as pin-up cards in exchange for sugar dolls, where all women happened to own the same transparent night gown and be totally cool with you ogling them all over. It has shifted into something beautiful, a very mature and complicated political storyline, with characters that feel truly alive and a part of a larger world, the kinds that live independently of the main character, have their own issues and don't just sit and wait for the Hero to come and change their situation.

However, I still feel the game falls into the same old trap that plagues mass media: for the lack of better expression, "the male gaze" (and here I have to apologise for even using this term, I know it's thrown around a lot these days, to the point where it's slowly losing its meaning and becoming quite annoying). Basic description of "the male gaze" is a world seen through the eyes of a heterosexual man; most commonly the men appear heroic and women appear sexualized into oblivion, only existing to appease the eye of the man looking at her. The male characters are the heroes men want to be, the female characters are the ideal men want to be with - essentially, it is wish fulfillment. This is especially noticeable in motion pictures (movies and game cut-scenes),where camera frames women in objectifying way (you'll see dozens of female butt and chest shots, camera slowly gliding over their form, and none of that ever happens to male characters - rather, the camera will accentuate their strength and abilities, not the curve of their buttocks (unless you're playing Metal Gear Solid). You will rarely see camera appreciating a woman's strong arms, for example).

What is the problem here? As a girl, I cannot relate to this. I cannot really relate to media where every woman possesses the 'ideal' body type that society so loves to throw into our faces on a daily basis, I cannot relate to media where female form is constantly being thrown in my face, while male form doesn't exist at all.

What I want is equality and female characters that look realistic. If you're showing eye candy for the boys, toss in some for the girls. If you're going to put extra effort to make men look realistic, not hiding their scars or scruffy skin, why not do the same for the girls? Nobody is perfect, I don't wake up with my hair perfectly curled or the eyeliner transforming my eyes into that perfect cat eye shape (as much as I'd want it to). Neither does any other girl in the world. Now, imagine your beloved girl. Imagine her face, that tiny, almost invisible thing she hates -the thing that makes her even more unique and beautiful to you. Oddly shaped nose or that stray hair in her eyebrow, that weird toe or prominent birthmark. Does that make her ugly, less attractive? Or does it add to her character, does it make her memorable, does remembering it make you smile even when you're away from her? And that's exactly why one shouldn't be afraid of creating flawed characters. And yet, females are so often Barbiefied, molded and polished to some kind of twisted idea of perfection. I don't care what other game developers create for their worlds, but The Witcher? It is a gritty, dark, realistic world that doesn't conform to laws, that doesn't care what media thinks what's right or wrong to show on the screen. Still, the women conform to beauty ideals of the modern world, stretching and twisting that ever-present anachronism to its limits.

The girls of the Witcher world- mainly, the lead characters - look very similar, very pretty, with very little variation in facial features. Compare that to men, now, who all have very distinct faces.

Geralt manages to look damn good with scars all over the face - hell, the eye scar is pretty much his trademark; Vernon's squinty eye and blemishes in the corners of his lips make him all the more interesting , Iorveth is just as handsome with half of his face missing, broken teeth and the way his jaw protrudes when he speaks. There's Arjan's moustache and silly haircut (even though his base 3D model looks runway-model-pretty, in my opinion), Foltest's hooked nose, Letho's dark eye rings and scalp scar...the list just goes on. These men are interesting to look at, and all of these small details make them even more awesome. There is a high chance you can relate them to someone you've met in real life. It does not take away from their appeal.

Now compare them to girls, who are free of all flaws, save it for Ves' barely noticeable, faded facial scar and Sile's hilariously bad granny lip liner. The only girl that really, truly stood out to me was Aneszka. I took a double-take when I first met her because she looked so different, so down-to-earth and she actually reminded me of several people I know. She made me smile. No surprise there, as she was based off a real person, a fan no less, and not a professional model or the artist's vision of "perfect" beauty.

Then, the body types. There isn't much to say, really - leading girls have one body type, thin and traditionally "sexy", robed in tight clothes, chest pushed up, dresses pulled low. Men come in all shapes and sizes, from super muscular to athletic to chubby. Which one of these is more true to real life? Why isn't there more variation to female bodies? And no, different boob sizes don't count. Media is already pushing these perfect body stereotypes onto us already, we honestly don't need video games doing the same. Not if they want to represent the real world, and the last time I checked, these games were highly realistic.

This isn't a Witcher-specific problem, of course, most video games seems to suffer from this. There is only one character from a game with realistic graphics that defies this that I can think of: Maria from Silent Hill 2. Ironically, she represents a man's sexual desires, wears very skimpy clothes (it's implied she's a go-go dancer), and yet she's not afraid to show off her stomach flab. Does this make her any less attractive? Nope. Does this make her easier to relate to? Yep.

And let us not forget one important thing from the books: Triss is supposed to have a chest scar. She could have had it removed with magic quite easily, but she refused to do so because it was a reminder of her strength, a symbol of her growth as a person. Now, it is debatable how much games follow book canon, but don't you think a scar would have added to her character?

As for clothes - Triss is done very well compared to her virtual sisters, she shows no skin and wears clothes appropriate for the type of adventuring she does (that pointy hoodie is adorable, by the way). Saskia has her top unbuckled (yes, her armour can be closed) to win peasants over - fair enough. I don't understand why she wouldn't close it when she's fighting, though. True, she's a dragon with healing powers, but why would she risk getting stabbed if she can help it? Her human form seems to be as vulnerable as any normal human body (ie. her skin alone won't deflect arrows).

Then there's Ves, who also hasher top wide open. Someone once argued that she's a sharpshooter and doesn't get involved in close-range battle and therefore doesn't need heavy armour. However, she is not just a sharpshooter, she is a soldier, she gets in danger on daily basis. Just because she shoots from the distance doesn't mean there isn'ta possibility of her being attacked from behind, or from other sharpshooters. Her male colleagues wear full body armour. And let me remind you that Dethmold is a mage who also doesn't get in hand-to-hand battle, yet he wears steel bracers and thick chainmail chest piece. Why doesn't he wear flimsy robes and sport open chest? Surely he can just Quen up and be safe from harm, even more so than Ves ever could.

I'm aware that the Scoia'tael -men and women alike - sport open robes and show a lot of skin. This is Elven culture that we know very little about, so I won't even try to argue this. Although I -will- mention that running around a battlefield without a bra is very, very painful, and it doesn't make much sense for girls to do so. Ancient Greek athletes bound their chest before running for a reason, it is just the sensible thing to do.

Lastly, there's the issue of sexuality. Most female leads are portrayed as sexual objects at one point or another. Let's recap:

- Completely naked Triss was used as a part of marketing campaign... twice. In one instance, she was shown completely naked sitting at completely clothed Geralt's feet.
- Unnecessary nudity at one point: Triss figurine is fully clothed, so why is she naked when she's decompressed? Please don't give me that "her clothes are magical" excuse, I'm so sure a person allergic to magic would want to keep a clothing spell on her all the time.
- Ves is put into skimpy outfit because it's ~beneficial~ to the plot
- Saskia in peasant's dream sequence - comic relief that I found unnecessary and that degraded Saskia's character

I am not against sex, I am not against characters showing their sexuality, and I doubt any woman is either. We are long past that ancient belief that sex serves purely for man's pleasure. What I am against is the inequality: why is it okay for a girl to run around with her boobs pushed up for all guys to salivate at, yet none of the men are shown as sexual, ever. Why does Geralt feel the need to pull his pants up the moment he is done with a girl, yet his partners are perfectly comfortable sleeping next to him completely unclothed? A naked character model of Geralt does exist, yet it's never used, and it's clear it wasn't meant to be used because it looks terrible when attached to Geralt's standard body model (naked model is only used in sex scenes so his pants wouldn't show, but he is never shown below the waist). We get to see Triss' private parts painfully up close, yet showing more than a naked male torso is a no go. Why are men so afraid to show their bodies, yet girls are made to do that exact thing all the time? The only time a man was shown in a remotely sexual situation in this game, he was portrayed as creepy and as comic relief... and clothed (not that I wanted to see Dethmold naked, mind you). Why is it that, when it comes to male sexuality, all of their confidence disappears? Why are these allegedly heroic figures so afraid of their own sexuality?

I can appreciate female bodies, but I find men even more attractive. There are men who feel the opposite, there are men who feel the same. Same goes for girls. Some find both equally attractive. I just think that, if you're going to make a realistic, gritty, mature game that appeals to adults, then handle all of its areas equally. It's easy to take a beaten path and load your game with pretty girls, but since when has this company been about travelling those roads?

All of this boggles my mind because the game does address the issue of gender equality. Just talk to Gittan, the lovely Scoia'tael lady in Vergen.

Lastly, the initial marketing campaign, the one with nude Triss - please don't do that again. You are degrading your own game, it's like taking an amazing movie with deep plot and including only that one brief sex scene in the trailer. The Witcher is not about sex - sure, it's a great and pretty bold addition - it is so much more than that. Do not degrade some of the most amazing female characters ever written because 'sex sells', it is disrespectful towards them, towards the original creator, towards the game, towards the fans. The first game already got a lot of crap for the sex cards, so how did showing more nudity succeed in convincing naysayers that there is more to the Witcher than tits and asses?

So, to answer the question about marketing this beautifully dark and gritty game to women - simply give us what massive media doesn't, and that's equality. Take women seriously, acknowledge that they are more than just some mythical creatures that may or may not play games. Your game already treats us with respect, let your marketing reflect that.

Nobody is asking you to strip Geralt into sparkly thong, bend Dandelion's sexuality to appease fans or dumb down the story and gameplay because some cannot fathom the idea of pressing more than one button at a time. There are plenty of examples where appeasing fans led to utter destruction of the series, some unintentional(Bioware), some very much intentional (Metal Gear Solid 4 - a game everyone who thinks catering to fans' wishes is a good idea should play).

I'll get off my little soapbox now. The core point is, keep it equal, keep it respectful. Recognise the fight women are fighting right now to be taken seriously, to no longer be invisible (or, even worse, harassed) in gaming circles. There is no special treatment required, just respect.

And a humble request: please, please, let's keep this discussion civil. If you disagree with something, nicely explain why. We are here to learn from each other, to see the other side of things. Keep it constructive.


EDIT: Before you misunderstand this post and decide that someone is trying to take away sexytimes and boobies away from you, read this post that explains things a little better.

 

[not_slimgrin]

Don't rush this type of post Dona. You have clearly thought things out, but you need to edit/revise.

 

[Dona.794]

Don't rush this type of post Dona. You have clearly thought things out, but you need to edit/revise.

Slim, please, be constructive. I won't be editing the main post, but we can discuss things further in the comments.

 

[volsung]

Dona,

I think the editing Not_Slimgrin refers to is trivial and doesn't affect the understanding of your article, it's unimportant.

Now, about your article. I think you are absolutely right. Nothing to add, nothing to remove. A few months ago I said how I found it annoying that computer/video games seemed to cater so explicitly to horny teenage boys, when we were talking about Catwoman from Batman: Arkham City. How could a serious thief ever use such a tight and revealing outfit? It's of course not supposed to be realistic, and it's mostly for looks.

I also think that excessive skin in characters models and unnecessary amounts of sex are somehow an insult to my intelligence. I can appreciate the casual, tasteful sex scenes in The Witcher 2, which somehow fit into a context. As most adults, I find sex part of normal, daily (and healthy) life and thus not alien to video games intended for mature audiences.

This is only one dimension, though. As you said, games carry an amount of sexual content but end up being very sexist, appealing very obviously to heterosexual men. I also think most female character designs in video games are done with men in mind, just like women in comic books: all of them have impossible bodies, huge breasts, and scant outfits. Emma Frost anyone? In Watchmen you can also see Silk Specter's asscheeks, while all of the males wear full costumes and masks!

We are adults, we don't need gratuitous animated skin to play a game. We care for content, and a consistent, believable world. Maybe in the 90's the big majority of gamers were teenage boys, but we grew up and I'm sure as game technology and design keeps progressing more women will get hooked, my wife included. She just finished reading "The Last Wish" and is eager to play The Witcher 1.

Perhaps CD Projekt will set an example in future games for developers to follow. They showed great respect towards us by not using DRM, and releasing free DLCs. Now's the time for deeper changes, including character models that are consistent with The Witcher's (and any eventual original) mature world, intended for a mature audience.

 

[Veleda.980]

I've found that I generally hate things that are marketed to women, so I don't seem to have quite the same triggers that other women do. There are times while playing games that I have that uncomfortable feeling that I'm in the middle of a male fantasy, but I can honestly say that Witcher 2 did not feel like that save perhaps in Triss vaporizing her clothes and murmuring a lot as she got into the water in the elven gardens scene. Whereas I always felt that way when the sex cards popped up in TW1, so in this regard I think CDPR did a great job at raising the maturity level of how sex was portrayed. I grant you it's cheap that we never get to see Geralt in flagrante, but I assume that is due to censors, who still have a problem with the penis and certainly one "at attention." For this I apologize as an American because we're probably holding the rest of you back.

I also did not like Saskia's armor at all. With Ves, I could understand a little bit. She was more of a scout and behind the scenes. Saskia is out front and her chest might as well be a flashing target for any archer. The boob quota was more than filled (pun intended I guess, hehe) by the sorceresses and prostitutes. This does take away from Saskia's character which is otherwise so good, because it makes her look foolish and not like a serious war leader which she is supposed to be. It's all the more puzzling because as I recall, White Rayla was armored appropriately.

All in all I had few problems and I can overlook the annoyances because the story in itself is so good and does not treat me like an ignoramus. The game also probably avoids some of the problems of other games where you're playing a female protagonist but it's clear the story was written for a man's perspective. In a sense, we ARE seeing the "male gaze," because we are playing as Geralt.

 

[dementedsheep]

Thank you for this post, I agree with you on some things tho I think CD dose better than allot of games. There is fan service for girls in this game. Scars or not Geralt isn't ugly, he ends up in nothing but leather pants more than once and of course he is also in the sex scenes tho not the focus. I don’t really want more fan service for girls than what is already there. That would be just as annoying as with the female characters.

The thing with Triss’s scar also annoyed me, it’s a part of who she is but since I haven’t read all of the books I was not sure if somthing changed with that.

I got to admit the female scoia'tael in TW 2 made me rage a little bit. What happened there?
They went from this, which to me gives the impression of a proud warrior:

To this:

ARGGHHH!
I acknowledge the fact that the scoia'tael are less armoured than they were in the first game but the guys are still in padded jackets at least. Not to mention the perfect skin, hair and eye makeup.

I was disappointed with Ves, not her character design so much. It wasn’t too blatant but while she isn’t quite a mock action girl I felt she mostly used there for cheep drama (also how much rape are going to heap on one character?). Even on Iorveths path you still get that “Ves almost died! You should feel bad” but she is one character. Not all the female characters have this.

I’m not against sex as long as it’s appropriate for the situation and character, I enjoyed the sex scene with Triss for instance. I’m also not sexy characters in general just so long as that’s not all of what we are getting and characterisation does not take a back seat to it and it would be nice if attractive did not always mean flawless beauty in tight or revelling clothing.

Also as a side note every time something like comes up you enviably get “oh its game, it doesn’t have to be realistic”. Well ignoring the fact that even fantasy should have some constant internal logic to it blah blah blah, it is not just about realism anyway. It’s about interesting, and relatable characters and not every one has the same opinion on what looks good.

 

[Oloroar]

Before I begin, let me ask you women a few questions:

When was the last time you saw a fat, bald, ugly man in a men's perfume ad? How about a men's deodorant ad? A men's sports gear ad? A men's clothes and underwear ad?

When was the last time you ordered a burger from McDonalds, and it looked as appetizing as the ads?

When was the last you saw an annoying, snot nosed kid in a children's ad?

When was the last time you bought a car, and it drove just like in the TV commercials - as if it was gliding on the road.

Does your dog/cat have perfectly shiny fur like those in animal food ads?

I am so sick and tired of the argument "advertisements place unfair expectations on women". No, they dont. They place unfair expectations ON EVERYTHING. Be they women, men, animals, cars etc... Do you think us men dont feel insecure when we see an athlete's perfect body advertise products on TV? Or do you honestly believe we spend hours in the gym because we find it fun to lift weights until we cant feel our arms anymore?

What is the problem here? As agirl, I cannot relate to this. I cannot really relate to media where every woman possesses the 'ideal' body typethat society so loves to throw into our faces on a daily basis, I cannot relateto media where female form is constantly being thrown in my face, while maleform doesn't exist at all.

It's the same for the men. You look at superficial imperfections in the men's bodies such as scars, yet completely glance over the main problem, their actual bodies. Look at Roche/Iorveth/Geralt. Look at their body build, their jawline and chin, their nose, their eyes. Iorveth is even wearing mascara!

If you're showing eye candy for theboys, toss in some for the girls.

You must have missed the 120kg man with perfect chest, abs, arms and face, with beautiful cat eyes standing right next to the naked women in the sex scenes. Only thing lacking was a penis, which just like the vagina, can not be shown in games without it becoming R18 in most regions. No, we do not see Triss' vagina, its covered by her pubic hair.

Still, the women conform to beauty ideals ofthe modern world, stretching and twisting that ever-present anachronism to itslimits.

Yet again you focus on superficial things like scars and ignore whats important. Lets study this even further, shall we?

"Studies have shown that ovulating heterosexual women (and homosexual men) prefer faces with masculine traits."
Well, its a good thing that the main male characters are all masculine.

"prominent and broad cheekbones, a relatively longer lower face, developed brows, and chiseled jawlines."
What was I saying before about perfect jawlines and chins?

"Symmetrical faces and bodies"
Look at the faces of the three leading men. Scars aside, they are perfectly symmetrical.

"The mesomorphic physique of a slim waist, broad shoulders and muscular chest are often found to be attractive."
Need I say more about this?

"women rate men with no body hair as most attractive"
Its a good thing that Geralt is completely hairless then, isn't it? He has absolutely no body hair, not even on his arms. This is an accurate representation of men in society, no?

Men come in all shapes and sizes, from super muscular to athleticto chubby.

Not the main characters, only secondary ones such as guards. If I am not mistaken, I believe there are plenty of variations on the women walking around in cities as well. Some are overweight, some are old, some are just plain ugly.

As for clothes

Triss is fine, Saskia has her reasons (for the most part), as do the sorceresses and whores. Who does that leave? Just Ves! Who I agree should have been more covered up. But look at the rest of the women around the cities. They all wear traditional medieval clothing. Elven men and women are equally exposed. So really, the only argument here is Ves?

Most female leads are portrayed as sexual objects at one point or another.

Triss not counting, since we are focusing on the games and not the advertisements, that leaves two instances of women being "objectified". Both of them last under 30 seconds, one of them was done with a rapist. This, somehow, translates to "most women"?

Lastly,the initial marketing campaign, the one with nude Triss - please don't do thatagain.

Agreed. The initial trailers should be showing off game features and trying to appeal to both genders. I too feel like the initial trailers of TW2 degraded Triss as a characters somewhat. Thankfully, she was nothing like that in the game. Even her clothes were perfect.

Nobody is asking you to strip Geralt into sparkly thong, bend Dandelion's sexuality toappease fans

But that's exactly what you are asking for! That was exactly what you said when you were talking about "the male gaze". You want men to be placed in equal sexual situations. You want the camera to check them out. You want Geralt to have his pants down after sex scenes.

"If you're showing eye candy for theboys, toss in some for the girls"

This cant happen. Men are not as open about their sexuality as women. *Most will not be comfortable with a camera panning over a mans ass, or to have naked men be the focus of cut-scenes. "the male gaze" and "the female gaze" can not coexist in games. Besides, the game focuses on Geralt, a heterosexual male - are we not seeing the world through his eyes?

*Not saying that I am not comfortable, just the average male gamer.

So, toanswer the question about marketing this beautifully dark and gritty game towomen - simply give us what massive media doesn't, and that's equality. Takewomen seriously, acknowledge that they are more than just some mythicalcreatures that may or may not play games.

This is where I agree completely with you. If we never acknowledge women gamers as legitimate customers, who have just as much rights to enjoy games as us men, then they will continue to overlook this medium. That is not only a negative thing for women, but also for us men, because I believe there is a lot to be gained by having women bring in a new perspective into the games industry - as both fellow gamers and fellow developers. As a future games developer, I want to see more women take an active role in the industry .

You have the right to be offended by the statements CDPR released.

 

[227]

Now, imagine yourbeloved girl. Imagine her face, that tiny, almost invisible thing she hates -the thing that makes her even more unique and beautiful to you. Oddly shapednose or that stray hair in her eyebrow, that weird toe or prominent birthmark.Does that make her ugly, less attractive? Or does it add to her character, doesit make her memorable, does remembering it make you smile even when you're awayfrom her? And that's exactly why one shouldn't be afraid of creating flawedcharacters.

Game developers from every company around the world need this quoted text tattooed on their faces.

"If you're showing eye candy for theboys, toss in some for the girls"

This cant happen. Men are not as open about their sexuality as women. *Most will not be comfortable with a camera panning over a mans ass, or to have naked men be the focus of cut-scenes. "the male gaze" and "the female gaze" can not coexist in games. Besides, the game focuses on Geralt, a heterosexual male - are we not seeing the world through his eyes?

*Not saying that I am not comfortable, just the average male gamer.

Do you have some kind of study or something to back that up? I mean, there are penises in Game of Thrones, so I guess no guys could possibly like that. Makes them too uncomfortable and whatnot.

Generalizations like that are the enemy.

Games shouldn't have to separate "things that men like" and "things that women like" into different categories as though they're diametrically opposed. Everyone can be pleased, but no one should be pandered to. If they are, then it should at least be equal. If the guys are being pandered to with female characters wearing unrealistic V-necks that would get a normal person in real life kicked out of a restaurant, why not pander equally to women? It'd be better if no one was trying to be shamelessly appeased like that, but at the very least both genders should be appeased equally. The game appeals to those who like well-written and complex stories, and no particular gender has a monopoly on that.

In response to that other stuff: The in-game women have symmetrical faces and all of the trappings of "attractiveness," as well. That's on top of a ton of unnecessary skin showing, while we don't even know what the top of Roche's head looks like.

 

[Oloroar]

Do you have some kind of study or something to back that up? I mean, there are penises in Game of Thrones, so I guess no guys could possibly like that. Makes them too uncomfortable and whatnot.

Look at everyday interactions between men. Have you ever seen two straight men give each other a friendly peck on the cheeks? My female friends and sister do it all the time when they encounter someone they hadn't seen in a long time. Have you seen how men hug each other? - its a half-assed shoulder tap than an actual hug.

As for studies, yes there are studies proving what I have said. Just ask Corylea, shes an expert on psychology.

In response to that other stuff: The in-game women have symmetrical faces and all of the trappings of "attractiveness," as well. That's on top of a ton of unnecessary skin showing, while we don't even know what the top of Roche's head looks like.

The argument was not "women show more skin than men", it was that the lead women in the game are not representative of real women in their physical appearance. I was simply proving that this is also true for the lead men: They all have perfect bodies, desirable facial features, and conform to what women find attractive in society (such as Geralt and Iorveth having no body hair). There is no inequality here - both the women and men in the game abide by social standards of attractiveness. Even the argument that the clothing is sexist does not hold much weight, as in all cases besides Ves, its justified. The only real difference is superficial imperfections, such as scars - which dont really make a difference in my opinion.

 

[227]

The argument was not "women show more skin than men", it was that the lead women in the game are not representative of real women in their physical appearance. I was simply proving that this is also true for the lead men: They all have perfect bodies, desirable facial features, and conform to what women find attractive in society (such as Geralt and Iorveth having no body hair). There is no inequality here - both the women and men in the game abide by social standards of attractiveness. Even the argument that the clothing is sexist does not hold much weight, as in all cases besides Ves, its justified. The only real difference is superficial imperfections, such as scars - which dont really make a difference in my opinion.

Part of that showing skin thing was more of my own argument than elaborating on Dona's, but that didn't really come across well enough. Anyway, I thought of a way to better illustrate the disparity between the two genders.

Okay, so walking along in Flotsam you see a bunch of people. Guys are like this and this and this. Symmetrical, maybe, but there's bad skin, body hair, dirt all over, fat. Not exactly male model material. On the other hand, what about the women running around? They look like this and this and this. Always skinny with good skin. There are a few ugly older women and non-ugly guys littered about the game, but there's a whole lot of these with great skin and a cup size bordering on being a bowl size compared to a whole lot of male flaws like this. Dethmold's fingernails are awful. Take a look at the red splotches in Roche's skin. Isn't he also missing a tooth? Even Geralt has wrinkles on his forehead and around his eyes, whereas Ves is apparently wrinkle-proof. Even that feather guy, who was added in DLC, has wrinkles and freckles and stuff. Saskia can only assume one human form, which I'm assuming means she doesn't have a lot of say in how she looks. I'm assuming, of course. Lucky for her that the form she got stuck with is one that has absolutely no flaws whatsoever. Even the lowliest nameless elf has pores and acne, but Louisa La Valette? Was being tortured minutes prior yet she looks like she's in the middle of a Maxim cover shoot.

 

[kitadol]

Have you considered that the source material is the problem? I mean the main character IS a womenizer that sexes all women he sees. Maybe CDPR are just being true to it

 

[Oloroar]

I have only focused on the leading men because Dona based her argument around Triss, Saskia and Ves. I dont feel like we should be too bothered about random NPC's. Either way I didn't research them so I dont know .

Lets take some examples from outside TW2:
How about this?
[URL="http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/10353/1969912-1305730664_nathan_drake.jpg]Or this?[/URL]

Two of the most well known characters in gaming. One with a perfect body, the other with a perfect face. We see it all the time. The main characters in most games are almost always ripped, tall, handsome men. Oh, and they are almost exclusively white. That fits the description of....about 0.0001% of the male population?

All that I am trying to say is that the problem of unfair expectations in games and advertisements affects us all, both men and women. Yet, the problem is almost always taken to be exclusive to women. The leading men in TW2 are essentially templates for the perfect male. Dona's favorite character, Iorveth, even wears mascara. Yet, she feels like this problem is one sided in the game. Most women do - I dont understand this. Does equality not mean treating both men and women equally? How can you take a problem that affects us both, and then present it from the perspective of one gender only? Is that not sexism?

The bottom line from me is:

Is there sexism in the game with regards to the leading characters? No - The leading women are modeled after the perfect female form, the leading men are modeled after the perfect male form. Where is the sexism?
I dont feel like dirty skin and scars play much of a role. It's more of a subjective thing - asking my sister, she said she finds Geralt more attractive with scars than without.

Is there sexism in the way the game was advertised? Yes - very much so. Using female nudity should not be how studios attract their customers. It only acts to alienate the female market. TW is above all a game based on mature character development and story, advertise this - not breasts. Keep aiming for 17+ male gamers, and that's all your going to get - and this community, and the industry, is going to be that much poorer for it. Imagine this forum without the leading ladies - pretty boring .

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator)

I agree that women in the game should be different. Just like guys!

I agree with the allegations that women are idealized in the game. I think so although I'm not some crazy, militant advocate of gender equality at all costs I'm not a supporter of some crazy ideas of parities. (Especially in terms of solutions imposed from above, governmental, official and regulations.)

Long ago, I mentioned the old Polish forum about this in a thread with wishes for The Witcher 2. I guess REDs do not read this thread ... Or they read, but did not take to heart the good advice

It is not about equality, parity, feminity and some other ideas. The point is that the idealized woman in the game are from another fairy tale! They do not fit into those ugly guys in the game! They do not fit into a morally gray world of The Witcher, to portray our realities in a fantasy world! Women in the game by his one-dimensional are less interesting characters in the story.

What is to be beautiful, it should be beautiful, but what might be ugly, it should be ugly. For instance a sorceress - they can make up for their beauty, so let them be beautiful. But the average woman, often wearied with life should be different. Just like the guys in the game.

 

[Dona.794]

Thanks to nobody telling me the forum screwed up the text when I pasted it. I will go edit it now, I hope you had fun laughing and being passive-aggressive about it.

Judging you all rn

EDIT: something is seriously wrong with the way Rich Text Editor handles pasted text, you'll have to live without italics :/

 

[MrMida]

I understand OP's pov, and I have similar opinions on matters, though I doubt to the same extent as OP.

I think TW2 handled women pretty decent and fitting to the context. So far I find Geralt and Triss' private moment beneath the elven ruins to be one of the best in video games to date.

And concerning the captured dream of the peasant: I don't see a problem in that whatsoever. It certainly didn't change my perception of Saskia. People can dream of having sex with (visually) attractive people, we can fantasize about it, and I thought it was done quite inventive.

Yes, all in all it could've done better, especially with the armour some females were wearing, but everything can be done better. And TW2 handling of gender equality certainly beats Bioware's shoving Miranda Lawson's ass and tits in my face by light years.

 

[eskiMoe]

If you're showing eye candy for the boys, toss in some for the girls.

Dona. Are you sure you're familiar with Sapkowski's universe?

 

[Mihura]

No one is saying that there isn't indeed sexism for both genders in the media but what the OP is asking is equality and the same diversity that the men have on TW 2, the game is suppose to be mature. For example I was expecting at lest for Philippa Eilhart do have pants and a jacket because she isn't your typical sorceress but overall all the sorceress look the same, which is sad because differences give a character personalty. If you don't understand why Dona post this there is this link it's a good read overall.

PS: The books do a better job in this department in my opinion.

Yes, all in all it could've done better, especially with the armour some females were wearing, but everything can be done better. And TW2 handling of gender equality certainly beats Bioware's shoving Miranda Lawson's ass and tits in my face by light years.

Well bioware did fanservice to girls too, Jacob anyone... I don't like ME 2 because of that actually, to much pandering.

 

[Dona.794]

Thanks to everyone for replies, I'm glad the discussion is super civil for now. :>

Whereas I always felt that way when the sex cards popped up in TW1, so in this regard I think CDPR did a great job at raising the maturity level of how sex was portrayed. I grant you it's cheap that we never get to see Geralt in flagrante, but I assume that is due to censors, who still have a problem with the penis and certainly one "at attention." For this I apologize as an American because we're probably holding the rest of you back.

Personally, I think showing penises would be going a step too far at the moment, it's not like girls are shown with their legs wide spread either. It's a bit tasteless and better reserved for porn, not to mention it would be very hard to model (lol pun) and show without looking very, very ridiculous. I like how sex scenes are done in TW2, they are playful and a bit funny (that hoof over Geralt's shoulder!), and they should stay that way, it's two 3D characters getting it on after all. But I wouldn't mind me some Witcher ass, nope.

Perhaps I should've made it clear from the start that I don't ask for cocks to be dangled in front of my face. It is just strange to see Geralt with his pants up right after sexytimes are over. It would be understandable in scenes with prostitutes, perhaps he just wants to leave as soon as possible without caring much for the girl But with Triss, his lover, a woman he cares about?

Here, have some pictures. What does each of them tell you about levels of intimacy between these two people?

The boob quota was more than filled (pun intended I guess, hehe) by the sorceresses and prostitutes. This does take away from Saskia's character which is otherwise so good, because it makes her look foolish and not like a serious war leader which she is supposed to be. It's all the more puzzling because as I recall, White Rayla was armored appropriately.

This, exactly. I don't mind cleavage and girls who wear revealing clothes, but it's unrealistic to portray EVERY female character like that. It should be done in moderation. Clothes and charming personality can be just as sexy as a pair of boobs. I didn't like how every girl seemed to have an excuse to be stripped down, be it Saskia's dragon-ness and attempt to be a leader, or Ves dressing like a prostitute to do a job :/

In a sense, we ARE seeing the "male gaze," because we are playing as Geralt.

I have to disagree, here. We play as Geralt - in third person. We see a lot of things he doesn't. It's not like in Metal Gear Solid where you can switch to first-person in some cut-scenes and see the character looking at someone's boobs, The Witcher 2 is tailored like a movie. We don't see things through Geralt's eyes.

I was disappointed with Ves not her character design so much. It wasn’t too blatant but while she isn’t quite a mock action girl I felt she mostly used there for cheep drama (also how much rape are going to heap on one character?). Even on Iorveths path you still get that “Ves almost died! You should feel bad” but she is one character. Not all the female characters have this.

Yes, Ves was handled a bit strange. I'll wait until EE to judge this fully, in hopes they will explain the whole "Ves lied" thing and add more stuff related to her character. Roche's path felt a bit unfinished compared to Iorveth's path, in some places.

@Dragon's Dream
No, you won't see anything other than perfection in ads. Men are perfect, women are perfect, children are snot-free, hamburgers look nice, juicy and fresh. Ads are there to sell that illusion, that dream of a 'perfect' life, it is their purpose. Creators of ads, however, have total control over the very content. Should it be a naked woman or a dragon burning shit up? Ads sell products, and final products almost never reflect the ads. I am talking about the final product here, not how Geralt's face was 'shopped for the CD cover.

It's the same for the men. You look at superficial imperfections in the men's bodies such as scars, yet completely glance over the main problem, their actual bodies. Look at Roche/Iorveth/Geralt. Look at their body build, their jawline and chin, their nose, their eyes. Iorveth is even wearing mascara!
You must have missed the 120kg man with perfect chest, abs, arms and face, with beautiful cat eyes standing right next to the naked women in the sex scenes. Only thing lacking was a penis, which just like the vagina, can not be shown in games without it becoming R18 in most regions. No, we do not see Triss' vagina, its covered by her pubic hair.

You missed the part where I said that men's bodies DO have variation, I just didn't focus on them individually. Letho is big and buff, Geralt has the perfect athletic figure, to be honest we don't SEE Roche and Iorveth's bodies because they each wear about three thick layers of armour, then there's Henselt who is a bit fat and plenty of more-or-less important NPCs who are far from skinny (Zyvik, for example). Girls, however, are all thin, save it for Mama Loredo and a granny or two you might pass by.

(re: Geralt, he is a bit too perfect indeed. I'd expect him to have a thicker waist because he needs that core strength for fighting, and I'd expect his upper arms to be a bit buffer since he does a lot of swordfighting).

Yet again you focus on superficial things like scars and ignore whats important.

I'm sorry... what? How is that superficial? Isn't it strange to you that men look perfectly realistic, with bad skin and battlescars, while girls have clean skin, no wrinkles, even though they are fighters as well?

But that's exactly what you are asking for! That was exactly what you said when you were talking about "the male gaze". You want men to be placed in equal sexual situations. You want the camera to check them out. You want Geralt to have his pants down after sex scenes.

"If you're showing eye candy for theboys, toss in some for the girls"

This cant happen. Men are not as open about their sexuality as women. *Most will not be comfortable with a camera panning over a mans ass, or to have naked men be the focus of cut-scenes. "the male gaze" and "the female gaze" can not coexist in games..

And that is EXACTLY what I'm asking for. EQUALITY. We need to get over stupid gender stereotypes. And yes, both "gazes" can co-exist. If I can deal with naked women, why can't you deal with naked men? I don't think either gender should be a 'focus' in cut-scenes, just show things as they are. Most will not be comfortable as long as we keep telling our children that showing a man's butt is somehow 'bad' while showing a naked woman is completely okay. Bodies are bodies, there's nothing sinful about showing them.

Re: your Iorveth comments, I consider him the best designed character after Geralt. He is an Elf and they are supposed to look beautiful. His face is a perfect unison of attractive and unattractive features. I am not sure at what resolution you play and how many details you can see, but his neckline is low enough that you can see he has chest hair Not to mention the terrible, scruffy skin and dirty pores and liver spots. Not very attractive up close. And he doesn't 'wear a mascara', he is an Elf.

Okay, let me break down his face for you.
Common 'even' features portrayed in art and media: high cheekbones, long pointy chin, pretty eyes, long flowing hair, long pointy nose, big pointy ears. Er, they're all pointy. Iorveth does have the high cheekbones. You may notice that his nose and ears are large compared to other characters, but they fit his particular set of features. His chin is not traditionally pointy (it is, at some angles, like in the pic I posted above), his hair is cropped short and concealed with a scarf, half of his face is a big ugly scar. The only "pretty" part is his eye, given that traditionally elfy shape and long eyelashes. Put it on other men and they'd look very, very effeminate. This is not the case with Iorveth.

Look at everyday interactions between men. Have you ever seen two straight men give each other a friendly peck on the cheeks? My female friends and sister do it all the time when they encounter someone they hadn't seen in a long time. Have you seen how men hug each other? - its a half-assed shoulder tap than an actual hug.

And you don't see a problem with that? Sometimes I feel bad for men because they cannot show closeness without being called derogatory names and hearing nasty remarks about their sexuality.

I dont feel like dirty skin and scars play much of a role. It's more of a subjective thing - asking my sister, she said she finds Geralt more attractive with scars than without.

LOL but that is exactly my point. Scars don't take away from their handsomness, so there's no need to shy away from making the women less perfect. As 227 nicely said it, they are perfectly modelled and textured. TW2 females lack those subtle mannerisms male characters do have. That make them more alive and set them apart from the rest.

 

[not_slimgrin]

Dona your point about the character models is wrong. There are a variety of character models for women; some are more voluptuous, some slender, and I believe all the major female leads you see naked have unique bodies. Compare Vess who is small breasted and lean compared to Triss' more ample form. Also, just walking through Flotsam you will see women of different types, old and young, frumpy and slender, some showing more skin than others.

If you want more realistic/less idealized female models for the sake of flavoring the world, I'm all for it. But the creative folks behind this game don't need a politically correct demon perched on their backs while they work.

And if they want to show Geralt's famous third sword or his buns of steel I really don't mind, but I doubt that truly addresses the issue you've brought up.

 

[Aver]

And that is EXACTLY what I'm asking for. EQUALITY. We need to get over stupid gender stereotypes. And yes, both "gazes" can co-exist. If I can deal with naked women, why can't you deal with naked men? I don't think either gender should be a 'focus' in cut-scenes, just show things as they are. Most will not be comfortable as long as we keep telling our children that showing a man's butt is somehow 'bad' while showing a naked woman is completely okay. Bodies are bodies, there's nothing sinful about showing them.

I belive that I have seen Geralt's butt in the game. And if we are talking about something more then I don't wanna see genitals of women nor men. It would be pornography.

The main characters in most games are almost always ripped, tall, handsome men. Oh, and they are almost exclusively white. That fits the description of....about 0.0001% of the male population

There is only so few of us?