Women of The Witcher [contains spoilers]

[not_slimgrin]

Ok. Now is the time we start listing legitimate female warriors of history. You know, the ones who turned the tide of battle...


*crickets chirping*

..Oh, I'm sorry, was this all about realism?

 

[GuyNwah]

Example just cited: the all-woman army of Dahomey. They regularly plundered their neighbor countries, drove the French out repeatedly, and weren't defeated until the French brought in machine guns.

If you want a bats**t-crazy fictional account of the "Dahomey Amazons", see Werner Herzog's Cobra Verde (the last of the Herzog-Kinski films).

 

[tommy5761]

Ok. Now is the time we start listing legitimate female warriors of history. You know, the ones who turned the tide of battle...


*crickets chirping*

..Oh, I'm sorry, was this all about realism?

really .... must we keep doing this . Or you can opt out of participating in this thread .

 

[Blothulfur]

I opt out of this thread because......

I'm sexist and I know it.
I'm sexist and I know it.

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle yeah.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle yeah.
I work out.


Only joking.

 

[dragonbird]

I think I need to clarify, as I didn't really say that much about it when I first posted the Dahomey image.

Firstly, I am assuming it to be authentic, but so is the one with them fully covered. So no, I'm not going to claim that they went into battle in the more-revealing outfit. However, the crowd scenes also could include artistic licence in covering up those parts deemed offensive to a Victorian audience. Prejudice against female bodies has been around for a long time.

Secondly, I don't think it resembles the Elven Women outfit. It's presented as an alternative rather than as an example.

But what I do think is that the tops they're wearing in the engraving(?) that I posted, and in the one that 227 posted, are valid and practical clothing for women warriors, just as practical as the fully-covered version that Guy showed. If anything, it's more practical because that cross-over can be used to stash knives, food, the baby, whatever.

And, as Guy mentioned, this was a genuine army who successfully fought against opponents who had heavier fire-power, without using armour.

The only practical argument that I can see against dressing the Elven Women like this is the climate difference, so I will give you that. We do have cold-climate precedents like the Berserkers, but there's a big difference between stripping off while going into battle and stripping off while hanging around your camp, so it doesn't help my case much as an example.

Either way I’m am aware not everyone had armour, that there are some places that didn't really use any and some even fought completely naked but the scoia'tael are not this. The guys all have some; they at least have a padded jacket. It’s not all the same of course, some have long jackets, some short, some have braces, some have various bits of bits of metal some don't.
However most of the girls have nothing. Even "eyepatch" has nothing and she isn't the lowest of the low who you would expect equipment to get to last, she is a squad leader.

Given the number of real-life examples of tribal warriors, freedom fighters, rebels and whatever who fought wearing no padding and no armour, this could equally be expressed as a criticism of the way that the male elves dress. Their usual tactic is guerilla warfare - they attack out of ambush, they depend on mobility and in being able to sneak and hide, and now that they're about to fight an army they're going to have problems, because they're probably NOT in a position to re-outfit.

Iorveth being over-dressed and over-padded for this environment can be justified - as their leader he has to be able to stand on tree-trunks and give defiant messages without worrying about sneaky crossbow bolts. But for the rest, freedom of movement has value, and NOT wearing armour makes damn sure that they learn quickly to stay hidden. (Similar to Zivik's argument against protective amulets).

Because it’s not consistent with the guys it looks more out of place and ends up coming across as random eyecandy.

IMO they should either have them all wearing armour (and I generally like the look of armour more) or have a mix of armoured and not armoured (tho preferably not to the extent where it doesn’t even look like it could stay on) for both men and women so it’s consistent. I would also like them to look more ragged. I don’t mean just mean attire with this; I mean skin, hair, that sort of thing. They are meant to have been sleeping on dirt.

OK. Fair enough. So if half of the women wore clothes like the Dahomey warriors but a bit more Elven, with no undershirts (thus showing cleavage), and some of these were ragged which exposed a little more breast, and the rest were covered up, some wearing padding, and there was similar variation among the men, would that be OK?

From a technical perspective, they need to balance the variety of clothing against processing time, so the implementation of this kind of design with current technology would probably involve layering, so we'd get "not much clothing" to "a bit more clothing" to "fully covered".

Is this OK, or is the fact that this would mean cleavage still a problem?

 

[username_2093396]

Is this OK, or is the fact that this would mean cleavage still a problem?

It depends how it looks and what the context is. An outfit can still show cleavage while providing adequate support, but some of the female Scoia'tael outfits are designed in such a way to make it clear there is no support.

Large breasts + no bra + heavy activity (combat/acrobatics/etc.) = Pain!!!

Offhand I don't really remember any female Scoia'tael doing heavy fighting (either it didn't happen or I just forgot about it) so TW2 isn't too bad in that regard. I really wasn't truly bothered by anything in TW2 so I'm just making suggestions in terms of little things that I think could be improved but are probably very low on the list of priorities.

But in plenty of other games I get distracted cringing in pain when I see female characters flipping around doing all sorts of crazy stuff in an outfit that clearly provides no support. I admit I might not be normal because I cringe at anything that looks painful and most players probably aren't that into the game, but if hypothetically a female Scoia'tael was doing major acrobatics in the clearly-not-wearing-a-bra outfit it would probably bother me because I would keep thinking how painful that must be. But if she's just standing there talking, or something like that, then it would be okay.

 

[dragonbird]

It depends how it looks and what the context is. An outfit can still show cleavage while providing adequate support, but some of the female Scoia'tael outfits are designed in such a way to make it clear there is no support.

Large breasts + no bra + heavy activity (combat/acrobatics/etc.) = Pain!!!

Offhand I don't really remember any female Scoia'tael doing heavy fighting (either it didn't happen or I just forgot about it) so TW2 isn't too bad in that regard. I really wasn't truly bothered by anything in TW2 so I'm just making suggestions in terms of little things that I think could be improved but are probably very low on the list of priorities.

But in plenty of other games I get distracted cringing in pain when I see female characters flipping around doing all sorts of crazy stuff in an outfit that clearly provides no support. I admit I might not be normal because I cringe at anything that looks painful and most players probably aren't that into the game, but if hypothetically a female Scoia'tael was doing major acrobatics in the clearly-not-wearing-a-bra outfit it would probably bother me because I would keep thinking how painful that must be. But if she's just standing there talking, or something like that, then it would be okay.

The clothing should probably prevent bouncing, as that would be an annoyance, but the crossover design will do that. A young, fit woman with average size boobs (as opposed to D-cups) should be able to support them without pain - the reason that we have problems is because our reliance on bras from our early teens prevents the muscular development necessary to support them. (Like you, I have pain if I go braless for long).

Again, there are plenty of cultures in history where women did not wear bras, but still do a lot of the physical work.

So it would justify not overdoing the eye-candy by giving the women huge boobs, but otherwise I don't think it would be an issue.

 

[Veleda.980]

Ok. Now is the time we start listing legitimate female warriors of history. You know, the ones who turned the tide of battle...


*crickets chirping*

..Oh, I'm sorry, was this all about realism?

Mandukhai Khatun and Khutulun say hello.

You really don't want to have this conversation. I'm guessing, by your flippant tone, that you don't know as much as you think you do, and anyway it's off topic and inflammatory.

About armor: People tended to use the best armor they could afford which suited their battle style. The fact that some couldn't afford much doesn't really apply. BTW this is also my take on the Romans' references to Germanen and Celts fighting "naked," that it was Roman shorthand for "they've got shit armor." Though I allow it's possible that some warriors fought naked as a religious or bravado statement.

About Saskia:

Spoiler

She was susceptible to poison.

I'm not so sure that in her shapeshifted form that she didn't have human susceptibilities. Though again, to me it's irrelevant. My principal objection is aesthetic and yes, I know, tastes differ. I'm just stating mine. edit- Be honest, guys. If some male NPC had his balls out swinging during a battle, wouldn't a part of you lose your lunch? Say to yourself 'dude, put those away before you lose them'? No?

About the slippery slope: I understand that the topic is considered threatening, that it could open CDPR up to "hostile fire" which they've already gotten (unfairly, I think) from feminists and other naysayers. I just think here, in the Witcher fan forum, we ought to be able to discuss the topic along with any other in a neutral and calm way. I realize I'm new here, but at least I would hope that would be possible. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[GuyNwah]

I'm not sure about the actual dress of the "Dahomey Amazons", but the parade drawing still looks contrived to me, and I'm inclined to favor the other two. Other drawings or photos also show them in irregular dress rather than tailored uniforms. They were also photographed or drawn wearing only wrap skirts or loincloths; since they were powerfully built, exceptionally fit young women, you can imagine (and google for yourself) the effect.

Anyway, some eye and ear candy to lighten up the subject (sorry, it's only in Portuguese):

Clara Nunes: Gueirrera

"If you want to know who I am
I am daughter of Angola, of Kêto and Nagô
I don't fear blows because I am a warrior
Inside of samba I was born
I raised myself, I transformed myself, and
no one will lower my banner, O, O, O.
I am a warrior woman daughter of Ogun and Yansâ"

 

[dragonbird]

I'm not sure about the actual dress of the "Dahomey Amazons", but the parade drawing still looks contrived to me, and I'm inclined to favor the other two. Other drawings or photos also show them in irregular dress rather than tailored uniforms. They were also photographed or drawn wearing only wrap skirts or loincloths; since they were powerfully built, exceptionally fit young women, you can imagine (and google for yourself) the effect.

Oh, definitely. I'm pretty sure that ALL of the pictures were contrived, as all of them are posed, which means that both the subject and the artist are going to add their own preferences to it, whether that's "please wear some clothes, otherwise I can't get this printed in the newspapers" or "please add a few extra severed heads so that it strikes fear into our enemies".

 

[dementedsheep]

I think I need to clarify, as I didn't really say that much about it when I first posted the Dahomey image.

Firstly, I am assuming it to be authentic, but so is the one with them fully covered. So no, I'm not going to claim that they went into battle in the more-revealing outfit. However, the crowd scenes also could include artistic licence in covering up those parts deemed offensive to a Victorian audience. Prejudice against female bodies has been around for a long time.

Secondly, I don't think it resembles the Elven Women outfit. It's presented as an alternative rather than as an example.

But what I do think is that the tops they're wearing in the engraving(?) that I posted, and in the one that 227 posted, are valid and practical clothing for women warriors, just as practical as the fully-covered version that Guy showed. If anything, it's more practical because that cross-over can be used to stash knives, food, the baby, whatever.

And, as Guy mentioned, this was a genuine army who successfully fought against opponents who had heavier fire-power, without using armour.

The only practical argument that I can see against dressing the Elven Women like this is the climate difference, so I will give you that. We do have cold-climate precedents like the Berserkers, but there's a big difference between stripping off while going into battle and stripping off while hanging around your camp, so it doesn't help my case much as an example.



Given the number of real-life examples of tribal warriors, freedom fighters, rebels and whatever who fought wearing no padding and no armour, this could equally be expressed as a criticism of the way that the male elves dress. Their usual tactic is guerilla warfare - they attack out of ambush, they depend on mobility and in being able to sneak and hide, and now that they're about to fight an army they're going to have problems, because they're probably NOT in a position to re-outfit.

Iorveth being over-dressed and over-padded for this environment can be justified - as their leader he has to be able to stand on tree-trunks and give defiant messages without worrying about sneaky crossbow bolts. But for the rest, freedom of movement has value, and NOT wearing armour makes damn sure that they learn quickly to stay hidden. (Similar to Zivik's argument against protective amulets).

Well I wouldn't have that simple armour would too restrictive and don't really think not using any armour so they learn to stay hidden is a good idea, it’s there to help save your ass when things do go wrong so I would think if you had it you would wear it but I suppose thats debatable so fair enough.

OK. Fair enough. So if half of the women wore clothes like the Dahomey warriors but a bit more Elven, with no undershirts (thus showing cleavage), and some of these were ragged which exposed a little more breast, and the rest were covered up, some wearing padding, and there was similar variation among the men, would that be OK?

From a technical perspective, they need to balance the variety of clothing against processing time, so the implementation of this kind of design with current technology would probably involve layering, so we'd get "not much clothing" to "a bit more clothing" to "fully covered".

Is this OK, or is the fact that this would mean cleavage still a problem?

Yes that would be fine, in fact that would probably be the most realistic and most interesting option (IMO) if they can pull it off with time and resources, which I think they could of they wanted to.

 

[Adonai-]

Ok. Now is the time we start listing legitimate female warriors of history. You know, the ones who turned the tide of battle...


*crickets chirping*

..Oh, I'm sorry, was this all about realism?

Boadicea. Artemisia. Fu Hao. Nusaybah bint Ka'ab. Pingyang.. Hell, Saskia is essentially Joan of Arc. That's 30 seconds of googling. You're welcome.

I find the female characters as aesthetically pleasing as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I can't see that there's a decent amount of boobs for the sake of boobs. Saskia is borderline, Ves isn't really justifiable (she'll make up for being extra-stabworthy by her breasts distracting her enemy? Really?) and the Scoia'tael design is ludicrous.

Sure, The Witcher universe is fantasy, but it's as realistic and gritty as a world with elves and dwarves can be. Everything outside of magic and monsters is based upon mediaeval Europe, and crying foul because someone suggests that Boris Vallejo armour jars with the realism of the world (having already accepted you can hex a nekker) seems again like wanting boobs for boobs' sake.

For all that, TW2 is better than 95% of the other games out there (and far better than TW1) when it comes to presenting women (what that says about the industry, well...) and I'm impressed with the dialogue here as opposed to when the topic is raised on almost every other gaming site (mind you, I seem to have arrived after the clashing )

 

[Oloroar]

For all that, TW2 is better than 95% of the other games out there (and far better than TW1) when it comes to presenting women

Remember that this discussion is about what they wear, not the women themselves. I find the female leads in this game to be some of the most interesting depictions of fictional women ever. No one can deny that Saskia, Philippa, Triss, and Sile are amazing, and actually portray women as strong, determined, and ambitious people. Heck, the sorceresses actually manipulated entire continents. In fact, their personalities completely outshine the men's in many ways, who are portrayed as sexist, racist, power hungry fools.

So the problem isn't with how the game "presents" women, simply that the women show too much "cleavage".

What I dont understand is - are Saskia's slightly exposed breasts, and Ves' loose jacket worth all this trouble? I mean, 50+ posts just on that? One would think that it's the personality of these characters that matter, and CDPR got that perfectly. Maybe that's why I simply dont see what the problem is, because I am far more interested in who Saskia is and what she represents, as opposed to what she wears.

Edit: I didn't mention Ves cause I hate her .

 

[username_2093396]

What I dont understand is - are Saskia's slightly exposed breasts, and Ves' loose jacket worth all this trouble? I mean, 50+ posts just on that? One would think that it's the personality of these characters that matter, and CDPR got that perfectly. Maybe that's why I simply dont see what the problem is, because I am far more interested in who Saskia is and what she represents, as opposed to what she wears.

It kind of goes hand-in-hand though. Ves pretty much says that she uses her boobs to distract people so they underestimate her (I can't remember if she was speaking of combat or more generally). So I think it's valid to try to weigh the pros and cons of that statement. Is the supposed benefit of distraction high enough to outweigh the risk of injury?

And also with Saskia, presumably Philippa has told her to leave the armor unbuckled in order to manipulate men into liking her more. But does this make sense during the actual battle itself? She is obviously not invincible (the poison almost killed her) but even if she's extremely resilient to physical damage it would still ruin her plans if everyone saw her suffer a mortal wound and then she just walked it off like nothing happened.

So I wonder if leaving the armor undone during actual combat is meant to be an intentional decision by the characters, or if it's just that it's too much work to remake their character models for very short scenes in the game since we really don't see them in combat for more than a few minutes each.

I didn't mention Ves cause I hate her .

Aww

 

[dementedsheep]

It kind of goes hand-in-hand though. Ves pretty much says that she uses her boobs to distract people so they underestimate her (I can't remember if she was speaking of combat or more generally). So I think it's valid to try to weigh the pros and cons of that statement. Is the supposed benefit of distraction high enough to outweigh the risk of injury?

Did she? She mentioned people underestimating her because she is female and I know she mentioned that she dose make use of the fact that she is female but I was under the impression that was more for situations like with Loredo (infiltration) not that she actually distracts people with her boobs while fighting.

 

[username_2093396]

Did she? She mentioned people underestimating her because she is female and I know she mentioned that she dose make use of the fact that she s female but I was under the impression that was more for situations like with Loredo (infiltration) not that she actually distracts people with her boobs while fighting.

I wasn't sure if she specifically meant combat or not. She does wear a different outfit for the Loredo mission though, doesn't she? I think I assumed that she just meant in general, but I suppose I might have misinterpreted what she meant. And if she didn't mean combat when she said that, then I'm just going to stick with thinking that her open jacket was a minor detail that didn't get noticed rather than an intentional decision on her part

 

[Oloroar]

It kind of goes hand-in-hand though.

Not really. What you went on to explain is the practicality of what they are wearing, not their personalities, as I was saying. Saskia being at risk of getting injured in battle has no bearing on her character. Her sense of honor, valor, justice and charm do no increase/decrease depending on the amount of cleavage exposed - and that's what I am interested in. The practicality of her armor design means nothing to me, because it's a fantasy world, as I have argued all along.

Aww

Dont get me wrong, she is far better than 95% of female characters out there. But within the world of TW, there are far more interesting women, who completely outshine her.

 

[username_2093396]

Not really. What you went on to explain is the practicality of what they are wearing, not their personalities, as I was saying. Saskia being at risk of getting injured in battle has no bearing on her character. Her sense of honor, valor, justice and charm do no increase/decrease depending on the amount of cleavage exposed - and that's what I am interested in. The practicality of her armor design means nothing to me, because it's a fantasy world, as I have argued all along.

But it is part of her personality if for example she made a conscious decision that distracting the enemy and/or using it to keep up morale for her own troops was a big enough bonus to be worth the added risk of injury or revealing her dragon-status. If we're looking at it like these characters chose what to say and do, and how to present themselves to other characters, then it does factor into their motivations and plans.

But if it's just lack of time and not being worth it to make a new character model for the battle scenes, then I guess it doesn't matter

Dont get me wrong, she is far better than 95% of female characters out there. But within the world of TW, there are far more interesting women, who completely outshine her.

I thought Ves was the most interesting woman in the game, aside from Saskia. But of course that's purely subjective so I don't expect everyone to see it the same way

 

[Veleda.980]

What a number of us said is that for us the fact that they are well written, mature characters but aren't dressed appropriately (opinion, I know- we all got 'em) creates a cognitive dissonance. Because they are serious and accomplished, they should look it. The warriors' profession is to be a warrior, so they should look it. Since you don't see male soldiers dressed in loincloths, the female warriors should be dressed in similar style.

 

[dragonbird]

What a number of us said is that for us the fact that they are well written, mature characters but aren't dressed appropriately (opinion, I know- we all got 'em) creates a cognitive dissonance. Because they are serious and accomplished, they should look it. The warriors' profession is to be a warrior, so they should look it. Since you don't see male soldiers dressed in loincloths, the female warriors should be dressed in similar style.

Was the word "SHOULD" deliberate, or just an unfortunate use of English? Because this seems to be going back onto the "fans dictating what a game developer should do" track again, which I thought we all pretty much agreed to be a bad thing.

As you say, it's a matter of opinion, which means that my earlier point still stands. If developers feel obliged to respond to such a statement, it is censorship.

Well I wouldn't have that simple armour would too restrictive and don't really think not using any armour so they learn to stay hidden is a good idea, it’s there to help save your ass when things do go wrong so I would think if you had it you would wear it but I suppose thats debatable so fair enough.

Thanks, as you say, it's debatable, so we'll need to agree to differ. Both viewpoints have validity.

Yes that would be fine, in fact that would probably be most realistic and most interesting option (IMO) if they can pull it off with time and resources, which I think they could of they wanted to.

Next game maybe.