Women of The Witcher [contains spoilers]

[Mihura]

I already had a lot of discussions about the issue in this forum and almost all end in insults or passive aggressive behaviour, lest face reality, The Witcher 2 is not target at women alas most women will probably not buy it, it simple as that. If you think the game or the company are not improving or have a different moral standard then you, vote with your wallet.

The reason that presentation did not offend me was because I was expecting it a long time ago, I love TW2 and CD Projekt RED but they have a lot of room to improve and please, for god sake "the a politically correct demon" argument is old news, look at Game of Thrones, you can have a dark world with strong social messages.

I belive that I have seen Geralt's butt in the game. And if we are talking about something more then I don't wanna see genitals of women nor men. It would be pornography.



There is only so few of us?

Nudes are not pornography but ok.

 

[Aver]

Nudes are not pornography but ok.

Well, I believe that naked Geralt and Triss won't just stand there.

 

[Kindo.824]

Thank you, Dona. I've been anticipating this.

Just a quick response, below; it's a bit overwhelming thinking about everything I want to reply to right now, so I'll hopefully come back later.

I have to disagree, here. We play as Geralt - in third person. We see a lot of things he doesn't. It's not like in Metal Gear Solid where you can switch to first-person in some cut-scenes and see the character looking at someone's boobs, The Witcher 2 is tailored like a movie. We don't see things through Geralt's eyes.

It's an excuse used by Dragon Age 2-apologists (and developers), as well. The story is told by Varric (a friend of the main character), who is known for applying embellishment in order to appeal to his audience. The sheer amount of sex-focused banter and presentation, and the fact that Bethany (the main character's sister) was given humongous boobs in the beginning of the game, and other characters such as Isabela look equally ridiculous, they all accept simply because "it's Varric telling his version of the story." I don't buy that. No-one should buy that. Alleged sexism in games (or films or what have you), can never be explained away by such clumsy in-game excuses. The alleged sexism is there because the game's designers decided to put it there, pure and simple, and they must never be allowed to shift blame to something that is their own creation.

 

[Mihura]

Well, I believe that naked Geralt and Triss won't just stand there.

Actually they did exactly that in the first scene of the game.

 

[Aver]

Actually they did exactly that in the first scene of the game.

I don't feel like I want see any genitals anyway. No matter what they will be doing .

 

[not_slimgrin]

No one is going to see any genitals, sorry I brought it up. Yeesh.

 

[Blothulfur]

Not really bothered by the tit and arse factor, prefer the politics and storylines. Don't want it to turn into a demographic checklist like in that abomination Dragon Age though, wouldn't seem very true to the witchers world. Still got to say if you've got warrior women in game they shouldn't be that pretty: Broken noses, missing teeth, cauliflower ears, obviously shaven headed and scars should be the order of the day if they're serving a frontline combat role. Can still have good bone structure but messed up by that puffiness that comes with too many blows to the face, maybe a little punchy as well.

Be nice to see a female knight like this, be an oddity in the witchers world, but I think do-able.

 

[not_slimgrin]

Be nice to see a female knight like this, be an oddity in the witchers world, but I think do-able.

Double entendre.

 

[Mihura]

Not really bothered by the tit and arse factor, prefer the politics and storylines. Don't want it to turn into a demographic checklist like in that abomination Dragon Age though, wouldn't seem very true to the witchers world. Still got to say if you've got warrior women in game they shouldn't be that pretty: Broken noses, missing teeth, cauliflower ears, obviously shaven headed and scars should be the order of the day if they're serving a frontline combat role. Can still have good bone structure but messed up by that puffiness that comes with too many blows to the face, maybe a little punchy as well.

Be nice to see a female knight like this, be an oddity in the witchers world, but I think do-able.

First time I agree with you, I think the world is going to end or something.

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

Good post OP.
I fully agree that the game should be more balanced in its portrayal.
More scars, average looks and male/female balance in nudity thanks.
(Geralt should definitely show of his ass in some nude scene)

 

[username_2093396]

I'm a straight woman and I didn't have any problem with how TW2 portrayed women in general. The only thing that bothered me was repeatedly walking in on Phillipa's lesbian S&M sessions (that's not really my thing and it felt like a blatant attempt at fan-service instead of actually being important to the story).

I really do remember a lot of variety in the random female NPC's walking around town. I'm certain that they aren't all Barbie dolls, and I never felt like the random NPC's were meant to be eye-candy for anyone.

Regarding the main NPC's, the sorceresses are already explained as using magic to be more attractive (as was already acknowledged). I do think the sorceresses look different from each other though, but that might mostly be because of their different outfits and different personalities (expressions, how they move, etc.).

As for everyone else, whether it's Geralt, Saskia, Ves, Roche, Letho or Iorveth, they all train their bodies for combat so of course they would be relatively muscular and not overweight. All of them are relatively attractive, so I don't think the women were singled out for special treatment.

The world of The Witcher is in general racist and sexist. It's a horrible place to live for the characters. But I think that makes the strong female characters seem even stronger for overcoming it, not to mention it says a lot about Geralt that he believes in equality despite the general views of the world around him.

 

[DelighfulMcCoy]

Thank you for writing that article for us, Dona. By the time I was finished reading through the topic, all the things that were on my mind, had already been addressed, so there's not much for me to add. Just to put my support here. And move on to my own topic about female gaming habits, see you there...

 

[Oloroar]

@Dona
I never payed attention to the skin textures or dirt etc...because it never really bothered me. However, I can see that it does have an impact on you and other people. From that perspective, I can see how you might feel that there is some inequality. I also did some research on the random NPC models. I was not concerned with them because they were never really that important. I sure didn't stand around going "that shop keeper is pretty". But, you and a lot of others seem to be concerned with them. The females do have variation, but not as much as the men. So again, I can see some inequality.

pores and dirt aside, I still feel like the leading men in TW2 are just as "perfect" as the leading women.

I just want to clarify that I never meant to belittle your arguments. I just wanted to bring to light that the portrayal of men in games, at least the main characters, also places unfair expectations on us. In most cases, I feel it's just as much. Me and my friends have had our own discussions on these topics, and we are all tired of having the tall, handsome, white man be the lead. I dont believe this issue is related to sexism because I believe that it's a problem that affects both men and women, just like perfection in advertisements.

At the very least, give Geralt some body hair .

As for more nudity for women etc...as I said, I personally have no problem with it, but I am sure that the average male does. You also recognized this problem. This is strictly a flaw of us men, and it does suck that you women have to suffer for it. But understand that CDPR can not change social stigmas overnight. It is what it is .

Also, thank you for bringing this topic up. In light of recent events, I feel like there was some bad blood within the community that needed to be sorted out.

 

[Sirnaq]

From my perspective cdpr should cut off whole erotic content and romances form the game. It was romances that kills bioware games. You should focus on main story, quests, rpg mechanic, combat, game-play as a whole and ditch that whole romance nonsense. In my opinions rpgs are over-sexualized, its started with retarded baldurs gate 2 romances.

 

[Dona.794]

No one is going to see any genitals, sorry I brought it up. Yeesh.

LOL this ^

I think we all can agree this game doesn't need any genitals.

@Dragon's Dream
No worries, and my apologies if my replies came off a bit... bitchy, it wasn't my intention. This is a good discussion to have and it's been fun reading about things people do and don't notice. I don't expect CDPR to fix all world's issues either, I just felt they are so close to doing something even more awesome. Every other aspect of TW2 is near perfect and I believe they learned a lot working on the game. They definitely shouldn't take the Bioware route and start appeasing every person that complains about this and that.

Of course expectations are put on men as well, this problem goes both ways. In this specific case, I felt they achieved a good balance with men, they aren't unattractive, but they have scars and small mannerisms that make them all the more alive. Just a pinch of that with girls too would make it even more awesome. It's almost like they suddenly ran out of inspiration. Also, most of the devs are men, so I wouldn't really expect them to notice these things unless they talked to someone who does. Perhaps they thought it was unnecessary or that it would drive players away. Who knows :] That's why it's good to have discussions like this.

From my perspective cdpr should cut off whole erotic content and romances form the game. It was romances that kills bioware games. You should focus on main story, quests, rpg mechanic, combat, game-play as a whole and ditch that whole romance nonsense. In my opinions rpgs are over-sexualized, its started with retarded baldurs gate 2 romances.

I personally thought romance was done well in TW2, most scenes are avoidable. Some did feel a little forced, like the one with the elven lady... er, at least you get a useful key? D: Romance with Triss was done well and served as part of the plot device, while you still had a choice to pretend your Geralt isn't that interested in her. I don't mind romance in TW, but I wouldn't miss it either. It's good as long as they don't make it the central thing to do in game, as a certain developer tends to do :/

 

[username_3554293]

All I've got to say is: so what? I don't play video games to expand my politically correct consciousness and explore my sensitive side. They are fantasy. And since I'm a male, that means male fantasy. You virtually never see men trying to masculinize things women do on their own; why, then, must men's escapes be made to suit women? Why is there a double-standard for entertainment and escapism? Why are some people congenitally incapable of saying 'live and let live', and why do they insist on 'improving' everyone else, whether they like it or not? This is, quite simply, a call for cultural imperialism, and I hope CDPR continues to stand against it.

 

[DelighfulMcCoy]

All I've got to say is: so what? I don't play video games to expand my politically correct consciousness and explore my sensitive side. They are fantasy. And since I'm a male, that means male fantasy. You virtually never see men trying to masculinize things women do on their own; why, then, must men's escapes be made to suit women? Why is there a double-standard for entertainment and escapism? Why are some people congenitally incapable of saying 'live and let live', and why do they insist on 'improving' everyone else, whether they like it or not? This is, quite simply, a call for cultural imperialism, and I hope CDPR continues to stand against it.

Um... did I completely misread you or did you just say that games are for men only and hence have to suit male fantasies and women should go back to their knitting groups?

 

[chlong7]

Um... did I completely misread you or did you just say that games are for men only and hence have to suit male fantasies and women should go back to their knitting groups?

Not only did he say that video games are male-only escapism, he said they were male escapism because he plays them and he is male. So apparently, he defines masculinity.

@count-roland
If that's really your opinion, so be it, but you're not the only fan--or man--playing this game. If what you're getting at is that you think the concerns are just overblown, you might want to say that instead.

Personally, I think Dona has raised many fair points about the visual depiction of women in the game. I'm not as annoyed by some of the design choices, but that's partly because I'm just glad they got Triss out of those appalling clothes she was in for TW1. (Fishnet in the northern mountains, boys, seriously?) I also like Slim's suggestion about varying the female NPCs a bit more. Frankly, it's only fair. Look at some of the male NPC models the prostitutes get to service. Ew.

 

[Veleda.980]

It's an excuse used by Dragon Age 2-apologists (and developers), as well. The story is told by Varric (a friend of the main character), who is known for applying embellishment in order to appeal to his audience. The sheer amount of sex-focused banter and presentation, and the fact that Bethany (the main character's sister) was given humongous boobs in the beginning of the game, and other characters such as Isabela look equally ridiculous, they all accept simply because "it's Varric telling his version of the story." I don't buy that. No-one should buy that. Alleged sexism in games (or films or what have you), can never be explained away by such clumsy in-game excuses. The alleged sexism is there because the game's designers decided to put it there, pure and simple, and they must never be allowed to shift blame to something that is their own creation.

Well, I think I disagree. I've only read The Last Wish, but I got the impression of the source material as being like this, as well. Not sexist, but sort of a 60s movie kind of view with the sorceresses as starlets.

I hadn't noticed the female Scoia'tael "armor" in TW2, I have to say that looks awful.

When I speak on this issue, it's often to defend the Witcher games against charges of sexism or not having good female characters. That doesn't mean it isn't fair to criticize questionable artistic choices- that is what I am doing. Just to be clear.

edit to add- Triss' concept art is probably the best female concept art I've ever seen, so props should be given where it's due.

 

[Oloroar]

No worries, and my apologies if my replies came off a bit... bitchy

Not at all. Like I said, this is a discussion that needed to happen, and I enjoy seeing other people's opinions .

Of course expectations are put on men as well, this problem goes both ways. In this specific case, I felt they achieved a good balance with men, they aren't unattractive, but they have scars and small mannerisms that make them all the more alive. Just a pinch of that with girls too would make it even more awesome. It's almost like they suddenly ran out of inspiration.

After approaching this topic with a more open mind with regards to scars and other skin imperfections, I can kind of understand where you are coming from. The men do have those extra little touches, I just never really payed much attention to them. Perhaps it's because I am a man, and my attention was else where .

I'll be honest and say that a scar on Triss' chest would make her even more appealing in my eyes, especially considering what it symbolized. In fact, I am some what disappointed that they did not do that. Same applies to the other characters...a scar or pores on Saskia's face would hardly make her any less attractive. If it makes you women more comfortable while playing the game, then why not .

I don't mind romance in TW, but I wouldn't miss it either. It's good as long as they don't make it the central thing to do in game, as a certain developer tends to do :/

The romance between Triss and Geralt is the deepest, most complex relationship I have ever seen in a game. It is important to me personally, and its a big part of the game for me. To see it thrown out simply because it doesn't perfectly cater to everyone would be disappointing. Throwing away everything that doesn't appeal to everyone is the mentally that lead to Biowares fall.

I dont care how much of Geralt's ass you have to show - dont take away the romance subplot .