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Women of The Witcher [contains spoilers]

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Dona.794

Forum veteran
#41
Mar 10, 2012
Dragon said:
After approaching this topic with a more open mind with regards to scars and other skin imperfections, I can kind of understand where you are coming from. The men do have those extra little touches, I just never really payed much attention to them. Perhaps it's because I am a man, and my attention was else where .
Click to expand...
Hahah, aww. I just see it as another layer in character's personality, nobody needs to be turned into a harpy to be interesting (my apologies to all harpies). I was a bit surprised by Geralt's now scarred body and sometimes have fun guessing how he got each scar. Little things can say a lot about a character (Iorveth's protuding jaw makes him look all the more spiteful, imo, and it's a barely noticeable thing) or even spark imagination. You know the biggest fans will overanalyse every pixel, so... give them more to analyse :p
 
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username_3554293

Rookie
#42
Mar 10, 2012
DMC, kyogen: Not at all! I rather enjoy the company of women who like the games I like. I'm pretty sure most male gamers feel the same way. I think it's great for the gaming industry to expand into the hitherto-untargeted female market - doubly so, since I'm an occasional shareholder in gaming companies. Where they're feasible, I like the idea of games that appeal to a broad spectrum of men and women. But sometimes the constraints of genre, story, and mechanics forbid it. Some games are plainly aimed at men, and I can't abide people insisting that these be toned down in order to appeal to women. They aren't made for most women, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not unfair, sexist, etc., etc.; it's just plain normal - why begrudge it so? It's wonderful that some women do happen to like them too, but women who don't like them have other options, don't they? The OP seemed to be making a moral case for watering down or taking away from us the things we do like, and that's what I object to.
 
V

volsung

Forum veteran
#43
Mar 10, 2012
countroland said:
DMC, kyogen: Not at all! I rather enjoy the company of women who like the games I like. I'm pretty sure most male gamers feel the same way. I think it's great for the gaming industry to expand into the hitherto-untargeted female market - doubly so, since I'm an occasional shareholder in gaming companies. Where they're feasible, I like the idea of games that appeal to a broad spectrum of men and women. But sometimes the constraints of genre, story, and mechanics forbid it. Some games are plainly aimed at men, and I can't abide people insisting that these be toned down in order to appeal to women. They aren't made for most women, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not unfair, sexist, etc., etc.; it's just plain normal - why begrudge it so? It's wonderful that some women do happen to like them too, but women who don't like them have other options, don't they? The OP seemed to be making a moral case for watering down or taking away from us the things we do like, and that's what I object to.
Click to expand...
You really didn't get what Dona was talking about, did you?

A big percentage of the gamers that bought and support both Witcher games are women, so they expect CD Projekt to acknowledge that.

Even some of us, male gamers, who care for any hint of realism in a ROLE-PLAYING game, consider some of the usual female character models in modern games to be over the top. Excessively big breasts, tiny and revealing outfits... even for female characters who play similar roles to those of heavily-armored men. I just doesn't make sense, because it is a contradiction for that particular world's rules.

Games like The Witcher are aimed at mature audiences, so while sex scenes can be appropriate and tasteful, the game does not need to rely on them (or sexy character models) to sell well. We mature gamers are not looking for a skin flick, we bought the game for its other qualities.
 
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username_3554293

Rookie
#44
Mar 10, 2012
I don't mind realism, but, flipping through the OP, I also don't mind, for instance, the camera lingering on sorceresses and not on Geralt, or having decidedly more women with classically ideal figures than there are in real life. The 'unfairness' of the camera and the 'unreality' of the women are design features, and to take them away in the name of 'realism', or worse, in the name of some moral crusade, is to strip away an essential part of what makes the games what they are - and, no getting around it, to do so, in the main, at the expense of the game's primarily male audience.
 
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SystemShock7

Senior user
#45
Mar 10, 2012
Rapid fire comments:

Has anyone considered the fact that video games are overwhelmingly bought by males? Simple marketing sense that CDPR would target the game to males, just as CDPR porting the game to xbox.

And, as Dragon's Dream stated, same argument can be made about male characters in any game. When was the last time anyone played a game in which the main character looked like Loredo? 99.99% of them are manly men, with chiseled bodies, very athletic, etc... women complain video games, TV ads, movies, etc place unrealistic expectations of beauty on women, well, guess what? same thing applies to males. Ever seen a TV ad or billboard advertising men's underwear with a middle-aged man who's balding, has a beer gut, and a hairy back?

Imagine what the outrage would be like if, say, Victoria's Secret ran a commercial with a gorgeous model, that went something like:
"Look at me... now look at the woman sitting next to you.. now look at me again..."

Yes, the elf women in W2 all are thin and show cleavage, but then again, when was the last you saw an elf woman portrayed any other way?

And yes, the sorceress is W2 are all are illustrations of gorgeous women who use their looks to influence powerful men; however, this is not far at all from real life, that is, a beautiful woman using her beauty and femininity to put herself in an advantageous position.
 
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GuyNwah

Ex-moderator
#46
Mar 10, 2012
SystemShock7 said:
Rapid fire comments:

Has anyone considered the fact that video games are overwhelmingly bought by males? Simple marketing sense that CDPR would target the game to males, just as CDPR porting the game to xbox.
Click to expand...

If you're going to claim something as a fact, you should get your facts straight.

In 2010, women bought 48% of the console and computer games in the US.

Nobody here is asking for political correctness or ugly female characters. Just not to substitute a parade of Playboy models and out-of-place T&A for characters that are fitting and integral to the game. But merely jumping on the uncreative fan-service bandwagon, on the assumption that your audience is the same one that drools over Carl's Jr. commercials, is not only a mistake, it is one that is without a defense.
 
O

Oloroar

Rookie
#47
Mar 10, 2012
Why are people jumping onto the assumption that more variation = everyone's ugly? How does having a wider variety of body shapes for the random female NPC's somehow mean that Triss should become uglier? The argument was that not every women should be a super model - not that there should be no supermodels. Example - Dona has clearly stated that she doesn't mind the visual appearance of the sorceresses in the game.

Likewise, no one said that there cant be nudity and sex in the game, so long as it's tasteful. Look at all the arguments put forward so far, notice how not a single person has complained about the elven bath scenes? Or the intro scene with Triss in bed? Because they were tasteful - unlike Triss' playboy shoot.
 
D

dementedsheep

Rookie
#48
Mar 10, 2012
Dragon said:
Why are people jumping onto the assumption that more variation = everyone's ugly? How does having a wider variety of body shapes for the random female NPC's somehow mean that Triss should become uglier? The argument was that not every women should be a super model - not that there should be no supermodels. Example - Dona has clearly stated that she doesn't mind the visual appearance of the sorceresses in the game.

Likewise, no one said that there cant be nudity and sex in the game, so long as it's tasteful. Look at all the arguments put forward so far, notice how not a single person has complained about the elven bath scenes? Or the intro scene with Triss in bed? Because they were tasteful - unlike Triss' playboy shoot.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

I'm not against their being sexy characters or sex scenes, I don't mind that there are women you can sleep with, that their are prostitutes or that sorceresses are attractive and use it. I didn't even mind most of the sex cards from TW1 and I even liked some of them (I didn’t like how frequent they were or when they didn't give you an option like the random hate sex with the starving elf or the vampires), honestly I don't even really mind the playboy magazine shots of Triss. I’m not asking that every female NPC be made into Loredo’s mother. Sex is ok when its appropriate.

What I don't like is characterisation being sacrificed for fan service or forced fan service. I don’t like so many female character being a supermodel and I feel that making them that cheapens their chracter. I don’t like women not matching the situation or role that they are in and not being treated with respect in that regard. Look at Iorveth, he is far from picture perfect, he is not running around in tight fitting clothing and many women still find him attractive. All of those flaws serve to give him character, makes him interesting and makes the world seem more real. Imagine if they took all that away from him. Do girls have be porcelain dolls or have barely noticeable flaws and have their tits on display to be attractive? Is it really going to hurt if a female character isn't that attractive to you? and the fact that women are often designed as sex objects dose not make it any better.
 
V

Veleda.980

Rookie
#49
Mar 10, 2012
countroland said:
I don't mind realism, but, flipping through the OP, I also don't mind, for instance, the camera lingering on sorceresses and not on Geralt, or having decidedly more women with classically ideal figures than there are in real life. The 'unfairness' of the camera and the 'unreality' of the women are design features, and to take them away in the name of 'realism', or worse, in the name of some moral crusade, is to strip away an essential part of what makes the games what they are - and, no getting around it, to do so, in the main, at the expense of the game's primarily male audience.
Click to expand...
I really have a hard time believing that men are so shallow that they could not handle women who are less than perfectly ideal, not even the love interest but the sorceresses who are important characters but it's not like the PC is boning them. People like interesting faces, not made-up dolls. This isn't a "moral crusade" as I see it, it's about making the characters more visually interesting as well as consistent with their characters.

I'm aware that fantasy art tends to go for the extreme female nudity, bulging breasts and ridiculous outfits, and the Witcher is generally better and more realistic than this. Personally I loathe that "fantasy" art style so I'd just as soon see it banished completely.
 
S

SystemShock7

Senior user
#50
Mar 10, 2012
GuyN said:
If you're going to claim something as a fact, you should get your facts straight.
In 2010, women bought 48% of the console and computer games in the US.
Click to expand...
Could you share the source of that information? I'd love to see how they got to that conclusion, and understand aspects of that survey like how they accounted for things like how many of those women were moms buying christmas gifts, or simply the parent buying the video game for the child.

Nobody here is asking for political correctness or ugly female characters. Just not to substitute a parade of Playboy models and out-of-place T&A for characters that are fitting and integral to the game. But merely jumping on the uncreative fan-service bandwagon, on the assumption that your audience is the same one that drools over Carl's Jr. commercials, is not only a mistake, it is one that is without a defense.
Click to expand...
Why are you getting so bent out of shape? I merely pointed out the truth: as much as there's a "parade of playboy models and out-of-place T&A" for female characters in video games, movies, etc, there's also a "parade of playgirl models" when it comes to male characters. The only difference is most men don't complain about being bombarded with these unrealistic male expectations from media companies.
 
C

Corylea.723

Ex-moderator
#51
Mar 10, 2012
Women don't all have identical opinions, anymore than men do. I agree with much of what Dona has to say, but she doesn't speak for me; she speaks for her.

People often seem to confuse objecting to inappropriately sexualized characters with objecting to sex or objecting to sexy characters in general. I'm bisexual, and I like looking at nude women every bit as much as straight men do. I liked the sex scenes in TW2; heck, I even liked the much-maligned sex cards in TW1. I'm happy to watch Geralt get it on with any woman it makes story sense for him to get it on with. I'm even happy to have the story stretched a little bit, so that we can have plenty of sex scenes. :p

I love the sexy sorceresses, and I'm peering down the fronts of their dresses just as hard as the guys are. But then we get to Ves, and while I'm happy to look at her, part of me is thinking, "What, if you take an arrow to the tit, it doesn't hurt? Don't yours bleed? Are they made out of titanium or something?" Give me all the nude or scantily-clothed women you can cram into the story -- I like it. But having the female warriors half-dressed is just nonsensical.

I think people often read threads like these as much with their fears as they do with their eyes. They fear having something valuable taken away from them, so they don't always see what some of the posters are actually saying. I'm with you, guys -- I WANT lots of scantily-clad women in games -- I just want it to make SENSE. I know CDPR can make it make sense, because they have some great writers on staff. ;)

Okay, so now somebody tell me that all women are anti-sex ... and I'll introduce you to my silver sword. :p
 
D

dementedsheep

Rookie
#52
Mar 10, 2012
SystemShock7 said:
Why are you getting so bent out of shape? I merely pointed out the truth: as much as there's a "parade of playboy models and out-of-place T&A" for female characters in video games, movies, etc, there's also a "parade of playgirl models" when it comes to male characters. The only difference is most men don't complain about being bombarded with these unrealistic male expectations from media companies.
Click to expand...
Main male protagonist are usually relatively attractive but not sexualised to the extent woman are or done in such silly out of place way. Male character other than the main protagonist often aren’t particularly attractive.
Tho thats not to say the media doesn’t putting unrealistic expectations on men and they don't get stereotyped either. I know quite a few guys who are sick of playing meatheads and brown haired guys with stubble.
 
V

Veleda.980

Rookie
#53
Mar 10, 2012
Corylea said:
Okay, so now somebody tell me that all women are anti-sex ... and I'll introduce you to my silver sword. :p
Click to expand...
Heh, so true. I am completely, off the charts heterosexual, but I will occasionally post an artistic nude on my blog and I can appreciate the female form aesthetically. So really, I'm not offended by the occasional naked body. I do think women (sorry, hetero women :) ) have to put up with a lot more T & A and sometimes it can feel like there's jiggling womanflesh everywhere. However I think a lot of us here agree that what we're talking about is having that in its place, and not put in just for the sake of more skin.

Women are shallow, too, for sure. This reminds me of a small argument I've been having with some women commenting on the EE trailer, who said Letho was ugly. I strongly objected.
 
O

Oloroar

Rookie
#54
Mar 10, 2012
@Corylea
You are the most awesome person I know....like, ever. Please never leave this community :)!

I agree with everything you said. I would be lying if I said that the idea of Triss taking her clothes off didn't excite me - so long as it's done artistically! This was the case with the elven baths scene and the opening. It was two people in a relationship having fun, nothing wrong with that. As I pointed out before, NO ONE has complained about these scenes or used them as a negative example (there were suggestions to improve the scenes though with more Geralt's ass, isn't that right Dona :p). I could make the same argument for the succubus, or Ves.

The above also applies to physical appearances. Again, Dona and the rest were not complaining about the sorceresses, it makes sense for them to be "perfect". I guess you can argue about Saskia as well because of her condition....I dont know, my Biomed degree does not extend to that! However, why does Ves and half the random NPC's look like super-models? Why does Ves not wear armor? What sense does that make?



Keep the sex, keep the nudity - but stop shoving it into the marketing campaign. I guess you can add a bit more eye-candy for the ladies ;).

Keep the super hot sorceresses - but make soldiers look like soldiers, make every day women look like everyday women.

I am a bit intoxicated so the above probably didn't make any sense. Bleh.
 
227

227

Forum veteran
#55
Mar 10, 2012
SystemShock7 said:
Could you share the source of that information? I'd love to see how they got to that conclusion, and understand aspects of that survey like how they accounted for things like how many of those women were moms buying christmas gifts, or simply the parent buying the video game for the child.
Click to expand...
I believe he's referring to this.

Specifically this part:



EDIT to quote from the PDF: "The study is the most in-depth and targeted survey of its kind, gathering data from almost 1,200 nationally representative households that have been identified as owning either or both a video game console or a personal computer used to run entertainment software."
 
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username_2093396

Senior user
#56
Mar 10, 2012
Dragon said:
Likewise, no one said that there cant be nudity and sex in the game, so long as it's tasteful. Look at all the arguments put forward so far, notice how not a single person has complained about the elven bath scenes? Or the intro scene with Triss in bed? Because they were tasteful - unlike Triss' playboy shoot.
Click to expand...
Well, I object to the intro scene, but that's because I picked Shani in TW1 and I don't like Triss :p It doesn't bother me that much, but it was a bit jarring to start the game in bed with Triss when the last thing she said to me in TW1 was, "Speak, then leave!" :p But that's a continuity issue and has absolutely nothing to do with the nudity.

Dragon said:
Women are shallow, too, for sure. This reminds me of a small argument I've been having with some women commenting on the EE trailer, who said Letho was ugly. I strongly objected.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Letho is awesome

Dragon said:
However, why does Ves and half the random NPC's look like super-models? Why does Ves not wear armor? What sense does that make?
Click to expand...
Damn, now that everyone keeps mentioning Ves's clothing it's probably going to stand out to me now XD I never really paid much attention to her outfit before. Her eyes are so pretty that I never looked down :p

Seriously though I did think her clothing was a little revealing (the pants are very tight and her ass is quite noticeable in the interrogation scene due to the camera angles, and I agree the shirt is a bit too low-cut). I guess I just kind of figured that it was her regular non-combat outfit for hanging out at the base.

But I just remembered that I did see Ves in combat (fighting her in the arena on Roche's path) and I think she was wearing the same outfit, but I didn't even notice so it obviously didn't bother me that much. I was too focused on the story and gameplay, and the outfit wasn't quite ridiculous enough to distract me :p I would of course prefer a more reasonable outfit for when she's in combat though, at least if she's in a future game.
 
G

gibb_geralt

Rookie
#57
Mar 10, 2012
This thread reminds me of the BSN.
 
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username_3554293

Rookie
#58
Mar 10, 2012
Dragon: The Playboy shoot was silly, as most things in Playboy are. But it also meant introducing CDPR's work to a lot of people who otherwise would overlook it as 'just a game'. The magazine's content may be silly, but the magazine itself is a cultural icon, and the shoot is therefore something of a debutante ball, something announcing to an audience of non-gamers that the industry is moving beyond caricatures like Chun-Li, Tifa, and Lara Croft. That's a good thing, isn't it?

Corylea: re Ves: I'd say of all the scantily-clad women in the Witcher games, Ves is the one whose attire is most perfectly justified. She tells you why she doesn't cover herself in armor if you spend time talking with her: not directly, but she certainly lets you know that men habitually underestimate her thanks to her looks, and that that characteristic has come in handy for the Blue Stripes. Non-Iorvethophiles get to see her demonstrate it soon thereafter, and Dandelion elaborates on it in her journal entry. So, sure, she'd be safer if she wore Blue Stripe standard-issue medieval-SWAT-team armor, but much less likely to turn heads (so they can be snuck behind, chopped, stabbed, bludgeoned, shot, etc., etc.)

What's more, the game didn't stop at offering a cozy rationalization for her tarted-up appearance, but made a point of showing how she felt about it - how she understood how her, ah, natural talents, made her particularly useful to the Stripes, how she wanted an adversary to take her seriously in spite of their distractions for once, and how she nonetheless did not want to be 'one of the boys'. She's written to be one of the most interesting and believable characters in the series, and it's all made possible because the writing isn't the only place she's fleshed out. If she weren't so, she'd be someone totally different.

At any rate, you're right when you say I read the thread as much with my fears as my eyes. The Witcher series is among a very, very small number of games that write their heroes as men, not androgenous 'player characters' (as most RPGs do) or cutouts (as most FPSes and action games do), give these men (and thus, their players) permission to behave badly, even be pigs every now and then, in moderation, without making them apologize for it, and yet do not degrade them by making knuckle-draggers or neanderthals out of them. Geralt is neither a cookie-cutter super-soldier (Kaedweni jokes aside) nor a conflicted, tortured wuss; neither a saint nor a Duke Nukem-grade slob. He isn't someone you could be in real life, or, for that matter, really should be in real life, but to escape for a little while and live vicariously as such a man is a breath of fresh air.
 
C

creeperx

Rookie
#59
Mar 10, 2012
Dragon said:
Why are people jumping onto the assumption that more variation = everyone's ugly? How does having a wider variety of body shapes for the random female NPC's somehow mean that Triss should become uglier? The argument was that not every women should be a super model - not that there should be no supermodels. Example - Dona has clearly stated that she doesn't mind the visual appearance of the sorceresses in the game.
[...]
Click to expand...
Indeed. And when it comes to variety in character models between males and females I want to bring up Mass Effect. Male aliens who have a significant role in the game look like aliens and offer a great number of variety which I enjoy (Grunt, Garrus, Thane, Mordin etc). All females instead look like attractive human women with the same body build (Liara, Samara, Tali). Of course, Tali masks her face but the body looks like a human female and all the expectations from fanwork I have seen have portrayed her as a very attractive "human with a purple skin". Giving that all the human females are pretty much the same too, I find this to be really boring and uncreative. They are dealing with freaking aliens. There's so many possibilities but instead it's like all the females just have to appeal to the male gaze in a very stereotypical sense. Screw variety! It doesn't make that much sense that they seemingly only recruit these hot alien babes while males instead can look as non-human as they like.
I have no problems with how these male aliens look. They are interesting and actually rather charming (Garrus is charismatic :D). However, when you compare them to female characters, you can really see the difference in how they are handled. It's like when it comes to females, they just go with the usual eye-candy. I have no problems with good looking females (and at least they aren't overly sexualized in ME) but when every woman is a super model (whether they are human or not) it starts to look rather stupid. Why not have a one human looking male alien and one non-human looking female? That would already make a big difference.

Anyways, great post Dona . I must comment more later but haven't got time right now =P.
 
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not_slimgrin

Rookie
#60
Mar 10, 2012
GibbGeralt said:
This thread reminds me of the BSN.
Click to expand...

Which is why I came out of the gates swinging. On the BSN, a conversation like this would quickly to devolve into 'da witcher is hur dur perverted man's fare with the boobies and swearing!' I've defended CDPR so many friggin times at the BSN, it's hard for me not to get my hackles up when this topic arises.

Fortunately, we have a more intelligent thread going on here with people on both sides of the equation who have actually played the game.
 
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