Women of The Witcher [contains spoilers]

[Dona.794]

I excluded sorceresses in the beginning of my argument for the reasons stated here. They would use magic as plastic surgery to get as close to perfection as they can. Of course the standard used is a modern one, to appeal to the player. The game would be veeery different if they went with, say, Rubens' vision of female beauty...

I have to agree with Wichat; those images merely demonstrate the point that the leading female characters were derived from a single model, with minor variations given to each (Philippa's nose, Sile's colors, Ves's jaw line, etc.) And it does not appear to me to be an old European model, either; it is very much a modern one.

Another possibility is they chose real models for the men, but imagined the look of the women in their mind's eye, and I can tell you as an artist the hazard of this approach is a certain sameness permeating your work. But I still can't get behind this criticism. To me, there's sufficient difference among the female leads and to suggest otherwise quite frankly seems like nitpicking.

I'm pretty sure that's what they did. Hell, Roche's early model is based on Clint Eastwood. I also assume Geralt and Iorveth were "designed" - Geralt's face is clearly wolf-like (his eyebrows are especially shaped like a wolf's) and Iorveth is a combination of attractive and unattractive features that just work when carefully put together, to break the Elf cliché. That's why I'd love to see his design process, I wonder how they got there. And as we figured out here, Saskia was also given a subtle (yet effective) 'reptilian' look.

If you put female textures on top of each other, it becomes clear they were derived from the exact same model. The skin is painted on with 'scattery' brush, while male textures use loads of photo textures. I think the only exception is Aneszka, for obvious reasons, but I don't think I've looked at her file to tell you for sure.

It is really not a question of ~too much beauty~, but a question of variation, and again - all in comparison of variation of these features in men.

Is it a huge game-breaking problem? Of course not. But I don't see how a game would be hurt if we had more variation, either. I wrote the article because, frankly, I love how the men are designed, and it's unfortunate that women weren't given the same treatment. A good design has never hurt anybody.

 

[Garrison72]

I think Ruben's ladies are boatloads of sexy...

You mention the skin textures Dona, and ok I'll grant the women have virtually none, which makes their skin glow a little too much, or perhaps that's a limitation of the engine when the artist were trying to depict flawless complexions.

 

[Dona.794]

They ARE sexy, and I wish game designers had the guts to portray body types that aren't just thin hourglass figures :/

You get 'flawless' complexions with lighting, in real life and in games. Actually, I think Triss' freckles are more apparent in some scenes after the EE lighting update. But, as you noticed, the textures are a bit too smooth, so they appear glowy, especially in TW2's sunlight-crazy engine :'D

 

[wichat]

Sure I seem to all of you, almost at least, hard with my words, sorry, I don't know your language as well as I like to express or defend my ideas. Frustrating no can refute, gonna give up.

 

[Dona.794]

Sure I seem to all of you, almost at least, hard with my words, sorry, I don't know your language as well as I like to express or defend my ideas. Frustrating no can refute, gonna give up.

Not at all, you are doing good I agree with your last few posts, although I think the sorceresses would go for similar features that are considered attractive, just how lots of celebrities end up with similar features if they get too many plastic surgeries.

 

[GuyNwah]

I apologize, "European history" was a poor wording on my side. What I meant to say was more along the lines "throughout 20th century, the western cultures' beauty ideal included... "

Books describe sorceresses as extremely attractive, and in order to fit that description, game designers had to stick to the certain concepts of beauty. That's why none of the sorceresses has scars (although I think that CD project should put Triss' scar in the game since it was very important to the character's personality), they do not have small squint eyes, are not "chubby", do not miss teeth, do not have big noses or wrinkles.

Female characters do not look as similar to me, as people make them out to be. Their facial bone structure (cheekbones, chin, and brow ridges) is different in each model. General skull shape is difficult to determine, since long hair conceal top of the skull, but in case of Ves and Phillippa you can see that former's skull is more "elongated" than the latter's. They are definitely confined to western society's standards of beauty, what at the same time limits variety among them, unlike in case of men on the pictures who do not enhance their appearance using magic. You must also keep in mind that nearly all "main women" in witcher universe are either sorceresses or nobles, who have resources to make themselves look as good as they desire.

Also, modeling is also very competetive field, yet many most successful women in it share a lot of similar physical attributes (perfect skin, skinny, etc.) and people who want to become models improve their appearances to fit certain ideal, using exercise, diets, make-up, and even plastic surgeries.

What I understand your writing to mean, is that we should content ourselves with uncreative expositions of the "ideals of beauty" force-fed to us by the popular media and the clotheshanger industry because that is all your supposed "western society's standard of beauty" amounts to. I'm sorry, I have to yell, WHERE IS THE ART IN THAT? Nowhere to be found.

Twenty thousand years of art says beauty comes in all manner of faces, figures, and dress, not just minor variations on a single model chosen to represent the debased concept of beauty forced upon the people by media conglomerates intent on selling beer, fast food, and ill-fitting clothes.

Game developers who have already demonstrated the courage to field a game with the look of an Old Master would be selling themselves short to settle for the lowest-common-denominator "ideal" beauty some posters are at pains to justify.

 

[Garrison72]

I'd say Grindif is simply pointing out that beauty has regional interpretations, which it does. And I'm not concerned with Hollywood ideals in this case as CDPR managed to avoid these in both games. In fact, when I see Polish actresses, when I see fights with Polish fighters like Thomas Adamek and Andrew Golota, the game has a distinct slavic look among the inhabitants. Kind of a side note, but CDPR deserves credit for this

 

[GuyNwah]

I'd say Grindif is simply pointing out that beauty has regional interpretations, which it does. And I'm not concerned with Hollywood ideals in this case as CDPR managed to avoid these in both games.

Actually, I'm saying that what Grindif has advanced as an ideal of beauty ("many most successful women in it share a lot of similar physical attributes (perfect skin, skinny, etc.) and people who want to become models improve their appearances to fit certain ideal, using exercise, diets, make-up, and even plastic surgeries") is no ideal of beauty at all.

Not a regional interpretation. But precisely a "Hollywood ideal". And one that is no justification for look-alike female characters in this game or any other.

 

[grindif]

What I understand your writing to mean, is that we should content ourselves with uncreative expositions of the "ideals of beauty" force-fed to us by the popular media and the clotheshanger industry because that is all your supposed "western society's standard of beauty" amounts to. I'm sorry, I have to yell, WHERE IS THE ART IN THAT? Nowhere to be found.

Twenty thousand years of art says beauty comes in all manner of faces, figures, and dress, not just minor variations on a single model chosen to represent the debased concept of beauty forced upon the people by media conglomerates intent on selling beer, fast food, and ill-fitting clothes.

Game developers who have already demonstrated the courage to field a game with the look of an Old Master would be selling themselves short to settle for the lowest-common-denominator "ideal" beauty some posters are at pains to justify.

I did not say that we should do that. I did not say that that particular image is the only representation of beauty (I do not even agree with that). I also do not agree with media serving us pretty people all the time. All I said is that in case of sorceresses, such appearance is justified, and since they need to fit a certain standard of beauty, there is less room for variation, than in case of males. I do not see it is justifiable in all games, but I see why it is justifiable in case of sorceresses in the witcher's universe.

EDIT: Thanks for summing my arguments, slimgrin. That's pretty much what I meant.

 

[GuyNwah]

I apologize for some ill-chosen words. But I do not think the sorceresses would try to accommodate themselves to a standard of beauty. They would never sell themselves so short as to imagine a standard beyond themselves, that they would need to measure up to, like clerks engaging in "competitive dressing" at the office. Rather, they would set their own standards and then try to force each other to concede that each surpasses the other. This may not be true for the students and the sorceresses of low rank, who can do no better than emulate the great ones. But for the proud sorceresses of the Lodge, I do not see how it would be otherwise.

 

[Garrison72]

I do not think the sorceresses would try to accommodate themselves to a standard of beauty. They would never sell themselves so short as to imagine a standard beyond themselves

Might not be the healthiest mindset, but I'm pretty sure 90% of the human race thinks this way. Although the Greeks did alright with it.

I'm as disgusted as you are with American/commercial ideals of beauty, but I still think you're tossing it in where it doesn't belong. I'd consider them a subset of Western ideals, more like a bastard child actually.