Worried about no stealth

[JeromAsdert]

I find that you are making another mistaken in your logic. The result was constant and predictable yet unexplainable (at that time). The fact that experiment was flawed and based itself on only partially correct thesis. Back in the ancient Greek days people explained Vacuum as nature's fear of emptiness. The phenomenon existed even when people thought of it wrong or never knew of it's existence. When tree falls in the forest it makes a sound regardless of your opinion or knowledge may it be right, wrong or partially right.

Punk is attitude and mentality not flashiness of your style. Net runner does none of the things you've called flashy, in fact the better he is at his job the less people know about it and him. By that logic there should be no net runners in CyberPunk.

 

[Sydanyo]

I find that you are making another mistaken in your logic. The result was constant and predictable yet unexplainable (at that time). The fact that experiment was flawed and based itself on only partially correct thesis. Back in the ancient Greek days people explained Vacuum as nature's fear of emptiness. The phenomenon existed even when people thought of it wrong or never knew of it's existence.

The expected result would have been for particles to behave like particles. The unexpected result was that particles behaved as part of waves. Hence, unexpected. To me that's as logical as 1+1=2, to you it might be something else, we'll agree to disagree, so I'll just leave this part of the discussion at that.

When tree falls in the forest it makes a sound regardless of your opinion or knowledge may it be right, wrong or partially right.

No need to grab on to a saying which I simply used to illustrate a point, and we'll just agree to disagree on that point as well.

Punk is attitude and mentality not flashiness of your style. Net runner does none of the things you've called flashy, in fact the better he is at his job the less people know about it and him. By that logic there should be no net runners in CyberPunk.

First of all, I'll feel really stupid discussing Cyberpunk 2020 with you if you've never even played it, so please, before we continue too far, at least tell me you're experienced with the game.

Secondly, you're absolutely wrong about netrunners. Look at hackers of the real world. All they do is reckless and flashy, things just to show off. That's the hacker lifestyle. The whole idea is to be as famous or infamous as possible. Also, it's not just about your pseudonym on the net, it's also how you are in real life. Netrunners can be quite flashy and stylish in real life, and often are. Sure, they might dress and act completely different than their net persona, but it doesn't mean they need to be wholly unassuming in their real life persona.

That's my view of what Cyberpunk 2020, based on years of experience of playing it, and perusing the material quite thoroughly. I'm not sure what you're basing your view on, but clearly it differs from mine, and really couldn't care less to try and change your opinion, so let's just leave this discussion be.

 

[d1am0ndback]

The stealth in this game better be polished. If I was in the Black Team, stealth mechanics would be a top priority. The true path of the Shinobi is to walk in stealth, to live dishonorably, to deceive, to win a war at all costs with or without lifting a finger and playing people against each other. That to me is stylish and flashy enough for me. I've yet to read any Cyberpunk stories where this philosophy takes center stage. Stealth is a grown man's game and a philosophy I will die proud to have stood by.

 

[emicrania]

I gotta agree with McLeod,cyberpunk is pretty much this: "talk shit about me or talk good about me,the important thing is to talk about me anyhow."
Than u can be a sneaky son of punk or a shiny piece of scum with pink hats and pinker cyber parts,but we all want recognition,both in life and in game.
What s the point of survive countless adversity if nobody knows who the hell are you!?

 

[Sydanyo]

I think I should reiterate though, that I am absolutely not saying that the Cyberpunk 2020 / 2077 world can't have and doesn't have the sneaky types. My core point was more that the sneaking, lurking in shadows, shooting sniper rifles, picking locks and such should not be the focus of this game; we've already got Deus Ex, Splinter Cell and plenty of other games for that. Those things aren't really conveying the attitude of Cyberpunk 2020 properly, at least not in my own view.

So, while there definitely should be stealth in some form, it shouldn't be like DE:HR where you get highest points by taking every single opponent in a zone down with a choke hold. That's all.

 

[Garrison72]

I wouldn't worry about this as CDPR listed games like Deus Ex as inspiration. As for my Solo, I want to be able to take a stealthy approach whenever I can, but there should be occasions where that isn't possible.

 

[emicrania]

So, while there definitely should be stealth in some form, it shouldn't be like DE:HR where you get highest points by taking every single opponent in a zone down with a choke hold. That's all.

Amen.

 

[JeromAsdert]

The expected result would have been for particles to behave like particles. The unexpected result was that particles behaved as part of waves. Hence, unexpected. To me that's as logical as 1+1=2, to you it might be something else, we'll agree to disagree, so I'll just leave this part of the discussion at that.

Universe behaves consistently. You get same result if you have same circumstances, different results in same circumstances would be unpredictable. If you ask a person what is 1 plus 1 the answers could be 10 just as easily as 2. The fact that person answered in binary doesn't make it wrong just different from what you expected. That's the beauty of science. Even if people look at it differently there is still only one "real" reason. Newton's mechanical physics looked brilliant and very correct at the time so much so that they are still being taught to the very day even when we know that they correctness is very limited.

No need to grab on to a saying which I simply used to illustrate a point, and we'll just agree to disagree on that point as well.

You brought up science to back up a philosophical question, I've claimed that scientifically speaking there is only one universally right answer. Philosophically we can keep arguing forever. I am glad to see that you are a bigger person than that and wish it left behind.

First of all, I'll feel really stupid discussing Cyberpunk 2020 with you if you've never even played it, so please, before we continue too far, at least tell me you're experienced with the game.

I am basing my views on my interpretations of Wiliam Gibson's works, Rache Bartmoss' Guide to the Net and and various flavors text is CP2020 2nd edition corebook, to top that off I draw parallels to the real world.

Secondly, you're absolutely wrong about netrunners. Look at hackers of the real world. All they do is reckless and flashy, things just to show off. That's the hacker lifestyle. The whole idea is to be as famous or infamous as possible. Also, it's not just about your pseudonym on the net, it's also how you are in real life. Netrunners can be quite flashy and stylish in real life, and often are. Sure, they might dress and act completely different than their net persona, but it doesn't mean they need to be wholly unassuming in their real life persona.

How am I wrong? Take a look at one of the best netrunner Rache Bartmoss, extremely paranoid individual who tried to stay hidden which ironically was what killed him. Spider Murphy writes that one of the mistakes that Rache has made is actually revealing his real name. Which comes perfectly into my understanding of how real world works. You get to hear about events that thought to be work of hackers but they don't really jump on claiming it was them. It is usually after they have made a few mistakes and have been arrested do we learn of all the hits that they performed. The things that is true for both CP 2020 and real world - You don't want to be caught. Less mistakes you make, less evidences you leave behind, the more bounces you use to evade traces the better.

That's my view of what Cyberpunk 2020, based on years of experience of playing it, and perusing the material quite thoroughly. I'm not sure what you're basing your view on, but clearly it differs from mine, and really couldn't care less to try and change your opinion, so let's just leave this discussion be.

Punk is all about rebelion, netrunners are rebellious scum, playing pranks on the NetWatch and exposing corps doesn't mean you have to be stupid and paint a target on your back.

But of course to each his own. It's silly to think that anybody could change anyone's else mind, the point of the debate on the subject is to hopefully enlighten both sides about alternatives and expand their knowledge, not necessarily accept different point of view. I find anything that encourages me to do real life research to be worth while. So if you have no interest to continue it I'll respect your wishes and sincerely thank you for the discussion.

 

[d1am0ndback]

If you look at REAL LIFE, criminals use stealth all the time. From boosting a car in less than 60 seconds, to identity theft, to drug dealing, to murder. Everything has to be done without the eyes of pigs getting in the way. Its stupid to do anything LOUD and run around shooting things while chewing bubblegum.

Stealth is a valid way of life.

Hell even hackers use stealth, using different handles instead of their real name, or going undetected while surfing&hacking, or what have you.

 

[emicrania]

i really don't get why you guys wanna go around with thousands of eb worth of equipment,tons of cybertronic steel,rocket launcher in a palm and augmented reflex just for sneak behind a guys,click "c" on your keyboard and break his neck....

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

i really don't get why you guys wanna go around with thousands of eb worth of equipment,tons of cybertronic steel,rocket launcher in a palm and augmented reflex just for sneak behind a guys,click "c" on your keyboard and break his neck....

That's just one interpretation of a stealth mechanic. I font particularly want that. I do, however, want to be able to sneak in somewhere, throw off my disguise and go full-on lobby scene on peoples asses.

 

[JeromAsdert]

i really don't get why you guys wanna go around with thousands of eb worth of equipment,tons of cybertronic steel,rocket launcher in a palm and augmented reflex just for sneak behind a guys,click "c" on your keyboard and break his neck....

Unless you outgun entire security teams going into heavily secured front door while it's on full alert is much harder than going in through the back with minimal security. It doesn't matter if you go through the front door or the servers/ventilation, you have an objective to achieve inside the building and that is somewhat different than spending their security funds it would be inefficient use of your time doing something that doesn't bring you closer to your goal. Doesn't mean that going in guns blazing couldn't be a great diversion when other part of your team goes in unnoticed.

As a side note, as long as they don't fall into the trap and rewarded every specific action (like head shot or take down) but rather complete and objective regardless of how. Using stealth is one of the better tools in your toolset.

 

[schiff]

i really don't get why you guys wanna go around with thousands of eb worth of equipment,tons of cybertronic steel,rocket launcher in a palm and augmented reflex just for sneak behind a guys,click "c" on your keyboard and break his neck....

It's actually already part of every 2d and 3d gameworld as 99% of stealth games are basically shooters with sneaking elements. There are 3 kinds of stealth (line of sight break, shadow/light based, hiding in plain sight) that usually get mixed up in games and the one you mention regards the line of sight breaking you find in 90% of action games, even in arena shooters (the horizontal one as the vertical one is also an option; think of AC's running on rooftops).
Stealth is a gameplay opportunity for a game that is supposed to be based on two main mission structures that are brutal and non lethal (the two reasons npc's are either killable or not). So you can have mission parts like recon, stealth (plain ghosting), assassination, escape, race.....


Think of Thief if you ever played one. Most of the stealth games are jokes compared to that one as it codified the shadow/light stealth type you find in some game like splinter cell, it's like getting into a dungeon or a labyrinth and make your way out with a few tools while tricking the AI.
In your average action environment though, stealth is meant to reach your goals faster and that's the best you can get out of a stealth approach

 

[d1am0ndback]

i really don't get why you guys wanna go around with thousands of eb worth of equipment,tons of cybertronic steel,rocket launcher in a palm and augmented reflex just for sneak behind a guys,click "c" on your keyboard and break his neck....

Speak for yourself bruh, I'm not touching any of those cybernetic implants you speak of.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Speak for yourself bruh, I'm not touching any of those cybernetic implants you speak of.

Sounds like we have a pure meatbag amonst us.

 

[Garrison72]

That's just one interpretation of a stealth mechanic. I font particularly want that. I do, however, want to be able to sneak in somewhere, throw off my disguise and go full-on lobby scene on peoples asses.

[video=youtube;Es2uYtSJh-Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2uYtSJh-Y[/video]

 

[emicrania]

Speak for yourself bruh, I'm not touching any of those cybernetic implants you speak of.

DAMN YOU MEATBALLS!!!!!

I agree stealth is an important part of every mission,and be a chameleon in every situation makes the gameplay more interesting and realistic, but i'm looking forwards for something more than simple stealth; a system that would allow us to resolve a mission in total different ways using our personal skills.
For example instead of just sneak in sneak out, i could call off my fixer for get a copy of the passepartour of the office ,contact a friend of a cousin for get a turn in the garbage man truck and get in unseen. Than finally i want to be able to blast everyfuckingarasaka i see, but that,is another story.

 

[Sardukhar]

[Matrix Lobby Scene video]

Those were terrible disguises. The guards totally blew their Human Perception and Awareness/Notice rolls.

Nice demonstration of Combat Sense, though.

 

[thewarsend]

[Matrix Lobby Scene video]

Those were terrible disguises. The guards totally blew their Human Perception and Awareness/Notice rolls.

Nice demonstration of Combat Sense, though.

Good point.. You are wrong.. (See, two can play that game.. Yay, we are playing games! )

I think CP77 should have a disguise mechanic similar to the one Hitman games have.. Every outfit in the game should be obtainable and wearable by the player like Fallout games (Assuming you can take out the guy who wears it, silently and without alerting anyone) and NPC's should react to player depending on what he wears..

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Those were terrible disguises. The guards totally blew their Human Perception and Awareness/Notice rolls.

Obviously the guards thought they were 'Smiths'. It was the galsses.

To be honest though, it wasn't the stealth bit I wanted to use as an analogy, it was the violence.

Good point.. You are wrong.. (See, two can play that game.. Yay, we are playing games! )

I think CP77 should have a disguise mechanic similar to the one Hitman games have.. Every outfit in the game should be obtainable and wearable by the player like Fallout games (Assuming you can take out the guy who wears it, silently and without alerting anyone) and NPC's should react to player depending on what he wears..

I did like the Hitman disguise mechanic.