Yen Or Triss?

[SigilFey]

IMO, canon is a canon because of canon, canon, and canon. While we can all agree that The Witcher 3 - Wild Canon is a great game and deserved all its praise, I personally believe it simply doesn't have enough canon to satisfy everyone's canon.
So, before CDPR relocate their remaining staff to work on Cybercanon 2077, I suggest we start a petition for a patch or a small DLC which would add some more canon to The Witcher 3. After all, canon is of the utmost importance and Game of the Year 2015 as well as the fans deserves to have more of it. Please support more canon! And canon!

:rofl:

 

[figulus01]

I think Geralt makes much more sense when he discusses it with Ciri. That he came to a conclusion that his relationship with Yennefer simply left him tired. Constant ups and downs, drama and grief. For every good moment - ten moments of pain.

He went, found Yennefer and realized that nothing has changed and nothing ever will. Not even dying and getting back from the dead made a difference.

In some way, he'll probably always care about her but it just didn't work out and it's time to move on.

Yep,something crucial missed at the end of last wish...Geralt has to be given the option to mention Triss and/or to further explain his decision.

 

[The.GreyMatter]

I also consider CDPR creators

Sapkowski = canon creator;

CDPR = non canon creator.


Sorry, don't get me wrong, but looks like you don't really understand what canon and non canon means. A canonic story it is more important than a non canonic, may not be to you that looks almost desperate to hold the value of a non canon continuation, because it gives you the opportunity to romance a character that has no chance in the canon universe.

By your logic, nothing that happens in the games is canon.

Because it is not, none of the games are canon and that was said by the writer and by CDPR developers itself, if Sapkowski wants to continue his saga he will probably forget all about what happened in the games. Why? I'll try to explain as simple as possible. Because the games are a non canon adaptation, it is not part of the same universe. The saga of the books has his ending in the canon universe, which is the main one. The games are a non canon paralel universe, where the saga continues and it splits in different lines, according to the players choices. So none of the games happened in the main universe.

So whether you choose Triss/Yen, Empress/Witcher, Rad/Emhyr it is all equally non canon to the books.

In the end of the day, yes. But the world isn't black and white, is it? There is something I call "canon line" or even better, lore friendly. What does it means? Means that you are considering all what happened before the games, you are respecting somehow all the development and evolution of the characters that happened before and trying to stick in the same natural/logical line. You're not erasing all of that just to play the way you think it's the best to you, saying "my Geralt is like this and like that" and not necessarily what the character thinks.

Again, it is open to interpretation and to players make their own choices, so play whatever the way it pleases you the most, but call that "my canon" or "as canon as any other choices" is completely wrong.

Also it is not the same to say my Geralt can become a priest or a vegetable seller or a male concubine at Passiflora or whatever, as those events never take place in the game, unlike his romance with Triss. The games have different creators and they should be respected when we are discussing the events they wrote and thought were possible.

It was just an example, but what about Ciri? You can treat her in an inappropriate way during the whole game, leading her to die (or abandon Geralt and the world) and, consequently, leading Geralt to kill himself. You call that as lore friendly/canon as treating her the way Geralt always treated before? Which ends up giving the players the "happy ending" with her becoming witcheress or emperess. You will agree with: "nah, my Geralt developed and he doesn't care and trust Ciri anymore, so the end she dies is my canon". Can't you see the difference? The logic? There is a canon (or lore friendly, call whatever you like) line. The option where she dies is it valid because it is in the game, but is not the same as the other one...

 

[Lytha]

Something that people don't touch on (that I hate with a passion) is that CDPR gave her a pronounced British accent to make her seem even more like a bitch than she really is. An old trick American film makers use to villainise characters to appeal to a US audience; e.g Star Wars

This is odd. That thick american accent of Triss is one of the (many) things I loathe about her, while I enjoy the pronunciation of Yen a lot.

To my non-native, subjective ears it's atrocious to the English language whenever someone fails to pronounce i.e. a "t" as the letter it is, and instead blurts out a "d". My immediate gut reaction to such cruelty against "proper" pronunciation is quite negative. It makes the speaker sound, well, "either too lazy or incapable of even speaking their native tongue properly" - and that is not really a positive association about their cognitive abilities and intellect. And Triss speaks like that. Makes me cringe at every botched consonant.

I've a similar reaction to people speaking some of those thick, barely comprehensible rural accents of my native language. That's probably where that snobby (?) attitude comes from.

But you say that correct pronunciation is used as a tool to villainize characters? Really odd.

 

[Charcharo]

On the subject of canon and non-canon...
I respect the game as its own seperate universe where the books are canon. I also understand that as a fan fiction (effectively) they can not be considered canon to the books.

I believe literature is a superior art form, even if that is mostly due to age. In essence, I dont thing video games are inherently inferior and can never reach the same heights, as I champion them as an art form, but I also realize it would be insane twisted arrogance to suggest they caught up to thousand year old mediums(that too still advance) in 6 decades.

I consider the book canon more important (and completely superior) to the game canon. I consider them bookz better works too. With that said, I love both as I generally adore and admire all out dedicated works of remediation. The games are very good, so what if they arent as good as Sapko's stuff?

The only way to experience the games well is via reading beforehand (or at least after). I stand by that.

As for this topic? Who cares, it is just a never-ending battle. I am with the book readers in most cases, but what do I know? I only spent the last 20 years of my life playing video games, I obviously know nothing of video games.../s

 

[ammarmar]

Please people, leave Sapkowski alone already... Today, he's just a sad old man. He created a world that now has a life of its own. He will never write anything again. His contribution to Geralt's world at this moment is non-existing. Just be happy that somebody picked up the subject and is doing a great job at it.

Also, it makes me sick if somebody brings us the cretinous "canon/non-canon" argument. It's like discussing which religion is the true one.

If you only consider books worthwhile, then why are you playing games in the first place? Books ended with Geralt and Yennefer dying and going to some kind of afterlife. If you're happy with that ending, then just leave at it, wear your "I love canon" T-shirt and simply get lost, there's nothing for you here.

 

[toudis815]

"canon/non-canon" argument

There's no place to argue - books are canon, games are not. Games are RPG so the whole point of them it to make your own decision depending on how you feel regardless canon if you feel so.

It's like discussing which religion is the true one.

That's simple - non of them

Today, he's just a sad old man.

Quite opposite, he seems very happy with himself (even too much)

 

[Charcharo]

Please people, leave Sapkowski alone already... Today, he's just a sad old man. He created a world that now has a life of its own. He will never write anything again. His contribution to Geralt's world at this moment is non-existing. Just be happy that somebody picked up the subject and is doing a great job at it.

Also, it makes me sick if somebody brings us the cretinous "canon/non-canon" argument. It's like discussing which religion is the true one.

If you only consider books worthwhile, then why are you playing games in the first place? Books ended with Geralt and Yennefer dying and going to some kind of afterlife. If you're happy with that ending, then just leave at it, wear your "I love canon" T-shirt and simply get lost, there's nothing for you here.

You do realize that Sapkowski has written more than the Witcher? He has other works too as well as contributed to society in other ways...
As for whether he writes again... that is his business. Till he is dead and buried, it ain't too late for another book or series.

I play games because I wan't to. People can love something and still know of its flaws and appreciate what it brings to the table. Trying to help with the little I can do... for the good of the young medium.
And:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLCOvZOh1o
This is me IRL. True story.

 

[toudis815]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLCOvZOh1o

Get a fuckin' library card! :rofl:

 

[ammarmar]

Quite opposite, he seems very happy with himself (even too much)

He certainly doesn't seem so. Lately he's been griefing how games broke his career, because they make his books look like they are game-related, like crap written for WoW or Assassin's Creed series. And the man says he never even seen the games and know only few people who have because "he tends to mingle with intelligent people only". Yeah, people, you gamers are idiots for him. That's the kind of man he is.

In my opinion, he's just a mediocre writer, who thinks much too highly about himself. Other than the witcher series, he didn't write anything worth reading. And it's not like they are literary masterpieces, it's just a fun popular reading.
Other than that, there are three books about medieval Czechs which are boring as hell and few other items not even worth mentioning.

And once again: F*CK CANON.

 

[Charcharo]

He certainly doesn't seem so. Lately he's been griefing how games broke his career, because they make his books look like they are game-related, like crap written for WoW or Assassin's Creed series. And the man says he never even seen the games and know only few people who have because "he tends to mingle with intelligent people only". Yeah, people, you gamers are idiots for him. That's the kind of man he is.

In my opinion, he's just a mediocre writer, who thinks much too highly about himself. Other than the witcher series, he didn't write anything worth reading. And it's not like they are literary masterpieces, it's just a fun popular reading.
Other than that, there are three books about medieval Czechs which are boring as hell and few other items not even worth mentioning.

And once again: F*CK CANON.

I think the faulty translation + Eastern European sardonic humor made you misunderstand what Sapkowski said. At least in terms of the "intelligent" people joke.

My own self esteem (in my case outright arrogance) does not depend on the thoughts of other people I (unfortunately) never met. With that said, he does not hate gamers or think they are all idiots (though I personally do believe most are).

His other books are very good BTW. He is also an Abbercrombie fan. How can you hate that

 

[ammarmar]

I don't need any translations.

 

[Sephira]

Please people, leave Sapkowski alone already... Today, he's just a sad old man. He created a world that now has a life of its own. He will never write anything again. His contribution to Geralt's world at this moment is non-existing. Just be happy that somebody picked up the subject and is doing a great job at it.

Also, it makes me sick if somebody brings us the cretinous "canon/non-canon" argument. It's like discussing which religion is the true one.

The matter is a bit more complicated. While it is best not to dig on what was said during Polcon, the other feeling that the books were a post game accessory content was given by two serious factors. First, the US edition of books with covers of W2, are a great disservice, in addition to being horrible. Second, spreading misinformation on the books, stuff I've never seen for any franchise, with people who still says "But the books are based on the game?" When you need just 2 seconds on Google to understand that the whole thing was born in the 80-90's Partly also some questions out of place on the games in interviews, like "Do you prefer Yennefer or Triss?" Oh man.
So here Sapko has a point, absolutely, and it is permissible to be angry at the best, but generally blaming all... I do not think is a better solution albeit justified, so he is just making his way for being a foolish old man, putting too many historical readers, maybe smarter, against him, since most of them have played the game as well. As we say in italian, now he can only eat bitter cabbage if he did not choose a better deal about royalities and so on.

He certainly doesn't seem so. Lately he's been griefing how games broke his career, because they make his books look like they are game-related, like crap written for WoW or Assassin's Creed series. And the man says he never even seen the games and know only few people who have because "he tends to mingle with intelligent people only". Yeah, people, you gamers are idiots for him. That's the kind of man he is.

In my opinion, he's just a mediocre writer, who thinks much too highly about himself. Other than the witcher series, he didn't write anything worth reading. And it's not like they are literary masterpieces, it's just a fun popular reading.
Other than that, there are three books about medieval Czechs which are boring as hell and few other items not even worth mentioning.

And once again: F*CK CANON.

If you only consider books worthwhile, then why are you playing games in the first place? Books ended with Geralt and Yennefer dying and going to some kind of afterlife. If you're happy with that ending, then just leave at it, wear your "I love canon" T-shirt and simply get lost, there's nothing for you here.

While it's all a matter of de gustibus if you like the author or not, inconsistencies between W3 and books are there. So while your opinion is that this fight between canon and non canon is idiotic, you can a t least understand why it has been brought up in the first place. Without listening to Sapkowski. It's an easy thing to do. Canon is what the original author wrote, all. Non canon is what wasn't written by the author, like fanfics.

Books ended with Geralt and Yennefer dying and going to some kind of afterlife
That's partially true, and again de gustibus, but forgive me, knowing there's more to say about the whole ending and that this sentence doesn't represent the ending as whole I might understand why you consider the books fun and a popular reading.

But you know I just despise what he said during Polcon yet I won't go around with that T Shirt you suggested, everyone with a grain of salt can just separate the author from the person. And that's why I wouldn't listen to any interview Sapkowski will concede before he gets his sh*t together again.

He is also an Abercrombie fan. How can you hate that

Who is also disappointed about the Shattered Sea trilogy, but that's another topic.

 

[Hamilton1358]

@GreyMatter

I understand that games are a non canon continuation of the books and I never said otherwise, you don't need to explain that to me, but like I said, nothing that happens in the games is canon to the books. Within the games however, there are no canon choices. There are choices offered by the game creators and each of those choices is equally canon within the realm of the games. When playing them, I consider what has happened in the books, but I also consider what has happened in the games as equally important because I am playing CDPR's creation and not Sapkowski's.

"Real" Geralt exists only in Sapkowski's mind, in the games we play CDPR's version of him and when playing CDPR's version of him, their say is equally important as Sapkowski's. I just can't neglect the events of the games and only consider the character development that has happened in the books because I don't think that's fair to the creators of the games.

As far as Ciri dying is concerned, yes I think her dying is equally "canon" as her becoming a witcher or an empress because that is how the game developers envisioned one of her paths. It doesn't need to be a happy ending and happy ending doesn't necessarily equals the right ending. What is right for one person may not be to another.

At the end of the day, anyone can choose to enjoy the games any way they see fit and make the choices with whatever reasoning they find appropriate, but to say there are canon choices in the games is completely wrong imo and I can never agree with that statement. We clearly have a different way of looking at things and that's fine

 

[bengeddes]

This is odd. That thick american accent of Triss is one of the (many) things I loathe about her, while I enjoy the pronunciation of Yen a lot.

To my non-native, subjective ears it's atrocious to the English language whenever someone fails to pronounce i.e. a "t" as the letter it is, and instead blurts out a "d". My immediate gut reaction to such cruelty against "proper" pronunciation is quite negative. It makes the speaker sound, well, "either too lazy or incapable of even speaking their native tongue properly" - and that is not really a positive association about their cognitive abilities and intellect. And Triss speaks like that. Makes me cringe at every botched consonant.

I've a similar reaction to people speaking some of those thick, barely comprehensible rural accents of my native language. That's probably where that snobby (?) attitude comes from.

But you say that correct pronunciation is used as a tool to villainize characters? Really odd.

I think why it sounds wrong to you is most Europeans learn English with a British pronunciation. I personally don't feel language can be correct or incorrect in the way that mathematics can (as an unchanging constant), although obviously I acknowledge the need for rules of grammar and pronunciation and, like you, hate to hear laziness in speech. North Americans certainly don't sound the same as in the days of the colonies, but then all indications are that modern day English in the UK doesn't sound the same as back then either. That is to say both have preserved certain elements of pronunciation, and both have changed some things, for better or for worse. You'll have to forgive me, as an English PH.D it's a pet peeve of mine to hear it suggested that the Brits have perfectly preserved the mother tongue for the ages and all its children countries have corrupted the language.

That's a little beside the point though. What I'm actually posting about is your question about the "British Villain." As crazy as it may seem to non-natives, it really is a trope.

Evil Brit - TV Tropes
Aristocratic Villains And English-Speaking Nazis: Why Hollywood Loves Clichéd Accents
Why does Hollywood ALWAYS cast English actors as villains?

Of course, where some see villainy, others find it elegant and refined, as I do with Yennefer. That's not to say there aren't a dozen coarse and unrefined British accents that are often used for comedy and to indicate other traits like baseness or cruelty.

 

[Lytha]

it's a pet peeve of mine to hear it suggested that the Brits have perfectly preserved the mother tongue for the ages and all its children countries have corrupted the language.

Yes, I agree and I can understand that non-American pronunciation probably gives Americans a similar weird gut feeling based response as I get with the American pronunciation. Though, I suppose it's more a feeling of: "snobbish prick thinks that he knows better than me how to pronounce our language" rather than "lazy village idiot, too dumb to pronounce properly", and thus the "villain!" trope would fit.

However...

Shouldn't for example "interest" be spelled "indderest" if that was really how it's supposed to be pronounced? (That's just one of the many words spoken by Triss that give me a toothache.)


By the way, I've been listening to some audio readings of G.R.R. Martin short stories recently on youtube, and, well, I might just imagine that, but it felt like the narrators do often strive for varieties of Oxford English for the narration and main protagonists, and use the thick American accents for the plebs or villainous characters a lot. That might just be because they're Brits, of course. I do not know.

 

[Samiel27]

On topic discussion?

 

[bengeddes]

On topic discussion?

Well I think we're talking about why the two women's voices are a turn-on or a turn-off, seems pretty directly related to being in a romance with them.

 

[toudis815]

He certainly doesn't seem so. Lately he's been griefing how games broke his career, because they make his books look like they are game-related, like crap written for WoW or Assassin's Creed series. And the man says he never even seen the games and know only few people who have because "he tends to mingle with intelligent people only". Yeah, people, you gamers are idiots for him. That's the kind of man he is.

Sarcasm - ever heard of it? For 1,5 hour he was making fun of everything, including himself (saying that they gave him World fantasy award, because every other fantasy writer around 70 either are dead or already received this award). And that's who he is. He never talks seriously, and sometimes his jokes go below certain level. But to be honest, when I've heard it, I thought "wow he's gone a little bit too far", but when I saw a shitstorm in Internet, I started to think that he might have been right - about huge part of gamers at least. And BTW that was really good move - every damn website in Poland have been writing articles about that. Well done Sapko, maybe he's really planning to realease sth in the near future

 

[StandardEpiphany]

This is an interesting point. I grew up consuming a lot of British media, in the form of movies and TV series and radio as well, so I suppose that my exposure to the particularities of British English made me appreciate it more than the American counterpart. I like the accents from the Isles, I find them very characterful.

In regards to the games, there is an element that grates on me regarding Triss, and that is a certain... nasalness, I suppose, which together with some of the dodgier acting bits is a relative turn off. Yennefer's VA hams it up at times too, though. There are bits where it seems as if someone is yelling at her from across the room to just "make it haughtier!"