Yenn - Invocation needs a nerf

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Part of the game (I would argue the most fun part) is adapting to your opponent. If your opponent likely has Invocation, don’t play a card in round 1 that you are unwilling to face later.

Having poor outcomes against a card when you play poorly is not convincing evidence the card is imbalanced.
 

Yenn - Invocation nerf ideas:​

-increase the card cost​

or​

-target cards with provision cost not more than (10)​

or​

-target cards with provision (5) increase the provision value by 1. for every [specific] card played.​

 
Part of the game (I would argue the most fun part) is adapting to your opponent. If your opponent likely has Invocation, don’t play a card in round 1 that you are unwilling to face later.

Having poor outcomes against a card when you play poorly is not convincing evidence the card is imbalanced.

What you're basically saying is, play your shitty cards because your opponent might have Invo. You know well how this will end. Losing R1, being pushed in R2 where you will have to play your good cards and eventually a lot of good targets for Invo will be there for the opponent to exploit in R3.
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An some general thoughts now after reading some posts in this thread.
All the "clever" ideas "don't go tall, go wide", "don't give your opponenet good targets", blah blah blah. It's all a load of BS. Decks are built to play certain way(s), not to avoid selected cards. And let's be honest, Invo targets are in most cases cards, that are later utilized by the opponent. People in this thread gave multiple examples how Invo can suck by snatching crappy bronze that got boosted. Although I consider this to be a mickey mouse argument, it is sometimes true, but then again, the amount of times Invo targets those is a small fraction, because except for maybe 1 deck that comes to my mind, no other decks play only shitty cards that has no value for the Invo player. But let's assume you Invo such crappy target. It means two things:
- you came to the conclusion, that your chances of winning the round is bigger if you remove a boosted shitty bronze (even if it will cost you sacrificing 1 mulligan) - which translates to: you removed a big chunk of points (not necessarily by nominal value, but by the percentage of what he's able to generate with his deck - by this I also mean the value that the card is able to do by damaging your points pool) from your oppoenent's side of the board. Simply put, you're not always removing points, but also potential.
- there's no other card on the board, that would be playable for you if you yoinked it
In both cases you usually remove a crucial card, even if it's sometimes a shitty bronze.
And one more thing, if this comes to your mind: "oh, I was playing against that deck, which had no valuable targets and my Invo sucked", then ask yourself two questions:
1. what was your intention to keep Invo in hand?
2. why did you keep Invo in hand knowing, that the chances for a good target, that would be useful for you, are slim?
I expect all sorts of made up answers, but in truth, it is this:
1. you were hoping to remove something that is of high significance for your oppoenet's deck/strategy.
2. you simply played poorly.

And I will repeat what I already posted dozens posts back. For 9 provision you have a removal with potential to replay that card yourself. When we take re-playing the card into consideration, we should be comparing with Renew or Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream. These cards are 12 provision. 12!! And only give you the possibility to re-play a 9 provision card at most. Therefore Invo is not at all balanced, just by comparing to the mentioned 2 cards. Defending Invo in the current shape is not justifiable in my opinion. You invest 9 provision and can remove and then play cards that are 10, 11, 12 provision. Meaning the provision swing for that card is way too much. And when it comes to removing shitty boosted bronzes, you invest 9 provision to remove significant amount of points + their potential to grow further. So the ony drawback and complaint, that you may end up with a shitty bronze on top of your deck, when you will still have a chance to mulligan it, is... laughable.
 
the true is:

play melusine in r1? he got heatwaved? fine its 10 per 10. Mess with your deck gameplay but thats part of it,

Play melusine in r1? he grow up and got yenvoed? thats sucks, your opponent problably has a good finisher withou need provision to that,

Play raffards in 1? he got heatwaved? fine its 10 per 10.

Play raffards in 1? he got yenvoed? Thats sucks, you will problably need to deal with your own raffard in r1 or, while your opponent has e free good card

So against NG we cant play good cards in r1. While with other removers you are - usually - trading a good card with a good card, with yenvo you are trading 2 good cards (replay) fro one good card
Raffard has an Order and will get oiled/duelled or whatever the turn the NG player plays the card. A very bad Yenvo target and NG won't have a lot of bronze units unlike NR in the later rounds. And if Melusine comes down without a defender, that's just your typical punishment for being too greedy. NG rarely plays with Vincent AND Yenvo in one deck, so she is likely to be safe. And even if she's taken, the NG player can play her only once, whereas SK can just spam her with Fucusya and Sigrdifa every round.
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What you're basically saying is, play your shitty cards because your opponent might have Invo. You know well how this will end. Losing R1, being pushed in R2 where you will have to play your good cards and eventually a lot of good targets for Invo will be there for the opponent to exploit in R3.
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An some general thoughts now after reading some posts in this thread.
All the "clever" ideas "don't go tall, go wide", "don't give your opponenet good targets", blah blah blah. It's all a load of BS. Decks are built to play certain way(s), not to avoid selected cards. And let's be honest, Invo targets are in most cases cards, that are later utilized by the opponent. People in this thread gave multiple examples how Invo can suck by snatching crappy bronze that got boosted. Although I consider this to be a mickey mouse argument, it is sometimes true, but then again, the amount of times Invo targets those is a small fraction, because except for maybe 1 deck that comes to my mind, no other decks play only shitty cards that has no value for the Invo player. But let's assume you Invo such crappy target. It means two things:
- you came to the conclusion, that your chances of winning the round is bigger if you remove a boosted shitty bronze (even if it will cost you sacrificing 1 mulligan) - which translates to: you removed a big chunk of points (not necessarily by nominal value, but by the percentage of what he's able to generate with his deck - by this I also mean the value that the card is able to do by damaging your points pool) from your oppoenent's side of the board. Simply put, you're not always removing points, but also potential.
- there's no other card on the board, that would be playable for you if you yoinked it
In both cases you usually remove a crucial card, even if it's sometimes a shitty bronze.
And one more thing, if this comes to your mind: "oh, I was playing against that deck, which had no valuable targets and my Invo sucked", then ask yourself two questions:
1. what was your intention to keep Invo in hand?
2. why did you keep Invo in hand knowing, that the chances for a good target, that would be useful for you, are slim?
I expect all sorts of made up answers, but in truth, it is this:
1. you were hoping to remove something that is of high significance for your oppoenet's deck/strategy.
2. you simply played poorly.

And I will repeat what I already posted dozens posts back. For 9 provision you have a removal with potential to replay that card yourself. When we take re-playing the card into consideration, we should be comparing with Renew or Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream. These cards are 12 provision. 12!! And only give you the possibility to re-play a 9 provision card at most. Therefore Invo is not at all balanced, just by comparing to the mentioned 2 cards. Defending Invo in the current shape is not justifiable in my opinion. You invest 9 provision and can remove and then play cards that are 10, 11, 12 provision. Meaning the provision swing for that card is way too much. And when it comes to removing shitty boosted bronzes, you invest 9 provision to remove significant amount of points + their potential to grow further. So the ony drawback and complaint, that you may end up with a shitty bronze on top of your deck, when you will still have a chance to mulligan it, is... laughable.
You state your own opinion and I fully respect that. But the arguments of those who defend Yenvo aren't "laughable", they're just not what you think is right. You shouldn't compare it to either of the 12 provision cards, one of them is so bad that I haven't seen it at all the past two years and Renew is only played in highly specific decks which want to play one of your absloute key cards such as Salamander or Kolgrim twice. As you can see, Yenvo does something entirely different. And don't forget that Yenvo can very easily play for five or six points only, it happens more often than you'd think.
 
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Raffard has an Order and will get oiled/duelled or whatever the turn the NG player plays the card. A very bad Yenvo target and NG won't have a lot of bronze units unlike NR in the later rounds. And if Melusine comes down without a defender, that's just your typical punishment for being too greedy. NG rarely plays with Vincent AND Yenvo in one deck, so she is likely to be safe. And even if she's taken, the NG player can play her only once, whereas SK can just spam her with Fucusya and Sigrdifa every round.
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You state your own opinion and I fully respect that. But the arguments of those who defend Yenvo aren't "laughable", they're just not what you think is right. You shouldn't compare it to either of the 12 provision cards, one of them is so bad that I haven't seen it at all the past two years and Renew is only played in highly specific decks which want to play one of your absloute key cards such as Salamander or Kolgrim twice. As you can see, Yenvo does something entirely different. And don't forget that Yenvo can very easily play for five or six points only, it happens more often than you'd think.
LOL it kinda is laughable because it's insulting to even suggest on this forum that yenvo plays for 5 or 6 pts except in extremely rare cases like maybe R3 when you're both down to 1 or 2 cards.

If the card was bad it wouldn't be an auto include which invalidates your entire argument. The only time it would every play for 5 is if there is no better target which is rare. Heatwave has the same drawback. What it doesn't do however is give you a card without limit, allow you to keep devotion using it or cost 9 provisions.
 
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LOL it kinda is laughable because it's insulting to even suggest on this forum that yenvo plays for 5 or 6 pts except in extremely rare cases like maybe R3 when you're both down to 1 or 2 cards.

If the card was bad it wouldn't be an auto include which invalidates your entire argument. The only time it would every play for 5 is if there is no better target which is rare. Heatwave has the same drawback. What it doesn't do however is give you a card without limit, allow you to keep devotion using it or cost 9 provisions.
NG getting bled into a short round is an extremely rare case, seriously? And never have I said the card is bad, it just CAN be if you don't have targets.
 
funny thing, lets not quote anyone and not pretend i am saying the other user is "playing poorly".

So i wont quote too and i will pretend to not answer anyone, jus giving a random post in this thread.

of course we adapt the game based in the opponents deck, but, as @Gimme_a_break already said, you cant play "no golds" expecting yenvo. Also, we can see yenvo has the remove, the replay atributes and also the "skill" to make your opponent play no golds, isnt that good?.

So if i am playing golds in r1 (or r2 bleed) i am playing poorly and thats not convince anyone the card is OP?

I remember in yesterday spyro's stream, in 2 almost consecutives game he was playing with NG against NG and in the time he played calveit he got vilgefortz and terranova comes on board. People in chat was anoying him because of that and he said something like "what do you want me to do? Not pplay the card? Or give 200 dolares to opponent to no play vilgefortz?".

The same goes here, what should i do? dont play my golds or give 200 dollares to opponent not play yenvo? And, in the example i give, that was too sitatuational (calveit/opponent have vilgefortz in r1). Against yenvo its almost the same, play a good gold and get yenvo.

Also, i need to say spyro its one of the 50 best players in this game. Maybe we can say he is playing poorly KKKKKK
 
You can bait your opponent to use Yenvo on the wrong target but honestly, most of the time she is SUPER useful.

I hate playing against Nilfgaard (although I win 80% of the time), i don't even play NG but I like the faction identity. Yenvo fits perfectly.
It puts a lot of pressure and forces you to tweak your decks and/or to play very carefully. Overpowered meta decks HAVE to be punished because they aren't fun.

I think at 10 provision, she would still be great and you would just need minor changes in Nilfgaard lists. Maybe it won't change anything... but I feel NG needs this card as it is.

The problem isn't exactly Yenvo but "overbroken" cards that totally carry a deck. The more broken they are, the more broken Yenvo will be. Same for Heatwave. With less binary decks, Yenvo would be less threatening but still super good and funnier.
 
You can bait your opponent to use Yenvo on the wrong target but honestly, most of the time she is SUPER useful.

I hate playing against Nilfgaard (although I win 80% of the time), i don't even play NG but I like the faction identity. Yenvo fits perfectly.
It puts a lot of pressure and forces you to tweak your decks and/or to play very carefully. Overpowered meta decks HAVE to be punished because they aren't fun.

I think at 10 provision, she would still be great and you would just need minor changes in Nilfgaard lists. Maybe it won't change anything... but I feel NG needs this card as it is.

The problem isn't exactly Yenvo but "overbroken" cards that totally carry a deck. The more broken they are, the more broken Yenvo will be. Same for Heatwave. With less binary decks, Yenvo would be less threatening but still super good and funnier.
So now how do we counter the overpowered NG meta deck? Let me guess, it's only the other factions that are a problem, not the faction that almost always has the highest play rate each season. It's the same strawman argument you typically get from NG players.
 
spyro just played melusine in r1 and got yenvoed. WOW maybe spyro is a poor player, how he could do that? Also he just forfeit the match in r2

i am saying, if you play melusine and get heeatwaved its bad, but part of the game. Get yenvoed? for me thats unfair
 
spyro just played melusine in r1 and got yenvoed. WOW maybe spyro is a poor player, how he could do that? Also he just forfeit the match in r2

i am saying, if you play melusine and get heeatwaved its bad, but part of the game. Get yenvoed? for me thats unfair
If anything, I would argue this is evidence that Melusine needs a nerf!

(Actually, I love Melusine, but I think it needs to drop to a 3 point initial body. And I hate Yenvo. But Melusine in the hands of NG plays once. Melusine in the hands of SK plays up to three times with significant carryover.)

Spyro is a great player. I assume a lot more happened to prompt the forfeit than simply having Melusine taken.
 
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spyro just played melusine in r1 and got yenvoed. WOW maybe spyro is a poor player, how he could do that? Also he just forfeit the match in r2

i am saying, if you play melusine and get heeatwaved its bad, but part of the game. Get yenvoed? for me thats unfair
Okay, and what exactly is he saying about Yenvo? Does he think the card needs a nerf?
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So now how do we counter the overpowered NG meta deck? Let me guess, it's only the other factions that are a problem, not the faction that almost always has the highest play rate each season. It's the same strawman argument you typically get from NG players.
Play unitless and don't give them targets. Win round 1 and push into a short round. If opponent plays Calveit, your opponent will have most gold cards in his hand and you can bleed them out. Keep last say if you have a finisher which shouldn't get tall punished. Play greedier strategies, Assimilate has very little control. Play control yourself and destroy the Assimilate engines, then tall punish the rest (Heatwave, Yrden or Igni). Not including swarm in the list of counters because this gets countered by NR.
 
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Okay, and what exactly is he saying about Yenvo? Does he think the card needs a nerf?
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I dont know...wait...

yep, my telepathy didnt work. Maybe i can try my crystal ball.

Jokes apart (and i expect you laught of my jokes and didnt get upset, if its that, i just ask sorry), i will try to ask him in the next stream
 
So now how do we counter the overpowered NG meta deck? Let me guess, it's only the other factions that are a problem, not the faction that almost always has the highest play rate each season. It's the same strawman argument you typically get from NG players.
Would the game be better without Yennefer Invocation ? I don't think so. If Yenvo was neutral ? Don't know... But I don't have a solution. Do you ?

To be frank, when I build a deck, the first thing I think about is how to mess with Nilfgaard, so you can guess how much I hate them. :)

That say, I don't particularly like to face decks carried by one or two cards that need immediate answer. You don't have the luxury to take 3 turns to deal with some threats, nowadays. They are too strong, too easy to set up...
My wish would be : a less binary game. A game where every card you play counts, not a tiny obvious combo core and some fillers. Being rewarded when you manage to set up something on the long run. Also, having some risky but rewarding cards, but not to the point you totally lose the game if they are answered.
Next expansion, if we get cards that powercreep the strongest we have now, Yenvo will be even more annoying. And, of course, we will want to play those strong cards.
When I watch Gwent Masters, i'm amazed by the talent of the players but not surprised at all by the strategies. I've seen them all a million times. It's "who will Heatwave (or Yenvo) the best ?"
 
Using Calveit comes with a lot of disadvantages. I never use him in my NG decks and he isn't exactly meta. So I disagree, it's not "nothing".
Jan calveit is going to be nerfed, it obvious
Jan calveit condition allow you to have it in the first round, after that you just need to won the first round put kolgrim and letho, and the game is over
There is no more smart deck building or strategy gaming, all what you need is to full the deck with tactics cards, to be sure to have Jan calveit, then won the first round, it not that hard all what you need is to play all your card in the first round the opponent will pass Earlier because of all the low cards you have
Second round just play the defender letho and kolgrim
I faced 6 time this deck the last days, and i won only two times because i was playing the an craite drakkar, and the second because i was playing madoc with the purifing bomb, red bomb and with geralt i had luck in this game
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Yenn Invo must be Monster card, since they have no removals [only cripple Imlerith wrath] :coolstory:
NR two have no removal cards
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If anything, I would argue this is evidence that Melusine needs a nerf!

(Actually, I love Melusine, but I think it needs to drop to a 3 point initial body. And I hate Yenvo. But Melusine in the hands of NG plays once. Melusine in the hands of SK plays up to three times with significant carryover.)

Spyro is a great player. I assume a lot more happened to prompt the forfeit than simply having Melusine taken.
Mélusine is good as it is, it still can be bannished
No the can that really need to get nerfed is jan calveit
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Yenn Invo must be Monster card, since they have no removals [only cripple Imlerith wrath] :coolstory:
NR two have no removal cards
True


Not entirely true. And I say it as the prime Korathi hater around here.

Ditto

Absolutely wrong. You steal for points 99 times out of 100, which means a stupid Sea Jackal or a Fleder.
Each time a players used yen invo on me it was to steal my strongest deck card that he can use .
It was only few time for only point
Even when i play yen invo it because i have joachim or strategic metting to play next.
that why now i only use card that can be played only with my faction
 
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Yen invo make so many cards and combos too risky or not worth playing.Poor asleep dude is just 18+18 next round points for yen 9 provision.
 
Yen invo make so many cards and combos too risky or not worth playing.Poor asleep dude is just 18+18 next round points for yen 9 provision.
You can still play Old Speartip from hand in the other rounds. Furthermore, NG doesn't gain anything at all from stealing Asleep except denying those points.
 
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