They changed Caranthir, in the patch of early August, so it could only target MO units, in a vain attempt to nerf Ethereal (which of course got its own, massive nerf earlier this month)
I know, I'm highlighting what I've experienced with Yenvo. I don't think he's even used as much anymore if since being nerfed pretty badly.
Fret not, Shieldwallers and MO homebrewers. They'll probably nerf Yen, too. It still has somewhat better evaluation than Heatwave as tall punish. And the latest changes suggest that devs think that NG cards should not be better than neutrals.
(In other words, you almost never yoink a Vincent because Yen does the same thing but better)
If you yoink a Vincent that a 3 point play. Then when you play it, that's another whooping 3 points extra because you could have just yoinked the Vincent target in the first place. So a wholesome 6 point play by a 9p card. And that's only if your tall target has a status.
(In other words, you almost never yoink a Vincent because Yen does the same thing but better)
Personally I think it's better than heatwave in some ways, except for the no interaction with artifacts of course..
I'm sorry to be so blunt but this Original Post sounds so ludicrous to me that I think its a Troll.
The idea of nerfin a good card in the by far weakest faction, right after that faction got their best card extremely nerfed while that faction was already the weakest, is just stupid. One card doesn't define a faction even if it's an auto include.
The idea of nerfin a good card in the by far weakest faction, right after that faction got their best card extremely nerfed while that faction was already the weakest, is just stupid. One card doesn't define a faction even if it's an auto include.
A poorly designed and conceived card has no place — even if it is not overpowered and belongs to an allegedly weak faction.
Destroying a card is an Ok mechanism if it has some limitations that require actual strategy. So is copying a card. Even stealing cards within certain bounds. Invocation destroys and steals: bypassing both deathwish and graveyard. And guess what — that most hurts the other “weak” faction in the game.
I don't find it to be a poorly designed card at all. Putting the removed card on top of your deck synergizes with so much in NG, it's more than just a weaker Heatwave.
Even if it was overpowered arguing for it to be straight up removed is just ridiculous. At least argue for a provision increase then. By asking for it to be removed you're basically saying it's so broken it's simply impossible to balance that's how powerful it is, which just isn't the case.
Heatwave also bypasses deathwish and graveyard by banishing. Hits artifacts as well which makes it stronger than YenInvo right now.
Yenvo doesn't break devotion and far cheaper. If heatwave was so much better why is it NG players don't even bother with it? Even now when it's the only answer to artifacts. Why? Because their own scenario and removals are far more valuable. Yenvo is beyond broken, disrupts your strategy, gives a huge point swing and gives you a card to play.
In my opinion, heatwave is another poorly conceived card of no tactical interest. There is no counter, no back and forth play — just guesswork as to the best target. It at least has some strategic value (choosing devotion or heatwave, timing its use), but rarely lends itself to clever or creative play.
Claiming a card is not bad for the game (as in uninteresting and unfunny more than imbalanced) by comparing it to another bad card is not a convincing argument.
You've already answered your question yourself. If Heatwave didn't break Devotion, many NG decks would use it. And that last sentence sounds as if this card always played for like 20+ points and gave you card advantage, now that would be broken.
Any kind of unconditional instant removal is bad for the game, tbh.
NG were promised solid buffs in the upcoming expansion, so referring to their relatively poor state(and not as poor as some folks here would want you to believe, Assimilate/Enslave are just fine) is honestly a bad argument.
So... it's perfectly fine to judge YenInvo on its own merit, without any context, because the context will change very soon.
And truth be told, on its own, it's an abusive cheap-ish unconditional removal card with the added benefit of (possibly) returning its cost by yoinking something like a defender...or just any high-prov card you can use. The only advantage Korathi has on it is artifacts, and that is very conditional.
Note that I actually somewhat like aforementioned side effects of YenInvo and they should definitely be available to Assimilation decks...just not as a part of a stupid instaremoval card. Maybe something like Imposter leader, except without lock and with the ability to play rather than create. Coup de Grace fits the bill, technically, but 9 times out of 10 you need to hit your own spy with it, so isn't quite what I'm talking about.
YenInvo should die, though, and hopefully take Gutting Slash/Rebuke/Oil/etc. with it.
Or, at the very least, all of these should be 1 or even 2 prov more expensive, because as of now, there's no downside to running all-removal deck. Unlike units, removal never fails to find value, typically way over provision cost. Speaking of which...Gord was a mistake.
NG were promised solid buffs in the upcoming expansion, so referring to their relatively poor state(and not as poor as some folks here would want you to believe, Assimilate/Enslave are just fine) is honestly a bad argument.
So... it's perfectly fine to judge YenInvo on its own merit, without any context, because the context will change very soon.
And truth be told, on its own, it's an abusive cheap-ish unconditional removal card with the added benefit of (possibly) returning its cost by yoinking something like a defender...or just any high-prov card you can use. The only advantage Korathi has on it is artifacts, and that is very conditional.
Note that I actually somewhat like aforementioned side effects of YenInvo and they should definitely be available to Assimilation decks...just not as a part of a stupid instaremoval card. Maybe something like Imposter leader, except without lock and with the ability to play rather than create. Coup de Grace fits the bill, technically, but 9 times out of 10 you need to hit your own spy with it, so isn't quite what I'm talking about.
YenInvo should die, though, and hopefully take Gutting Slash/Rebuke/Oil/etc. with it.
Or, at the very least, all of these should be 1 or even 2 prov more expensive, because as of now, there's no downside to running all-removal deck. Unlike units, removal never fails to find value, typically way over provision cost. Speaking of which...Gord was a mistake.
Why are we ignoring that you have to actually draw the card you YenInvo'd then play it? People are making it sound like it's this all encompassing everything you could ask for card when in R3 you'd have to use a very specific setup to ever see your stolen card. Most often it ends up being Korathi-lite.
Making it simply play an enemy unit as was suggested would actually be an enormous buff.
An argument could be made for making it 10 provisions, anything above would render it unplayable.
When you look at different tall removals within that range it's really not a big deal. Your Ozzrel could just as well have been destroyed by dozens of other cards while placing a body on the board.
Making it simply play an enemy unit as was suggested would actually be an enormous buff.
An argument could be made for making it 10 provisions, anything above would render it unplayable.
When you look at different tall removals within that range it's really not a big deal. Your Ozzrel could just as well have been destroyed by dozens of other cards while placing a body on the board.
Joahim, War Council, Roderick... need I say more?
NG has some of the best tutors out there. YenInvo into Joahim is actually one of the more brutal, borderline unfair combos in the game. Many a Vysogota abusers instasurrendered the second they saw what I did. Whereas merely playing enemy unit isn't that big a deal - I haven't seen people complaining about Coup de Grace, despite it being the same thing basically.
AND you have to find a good target for the card as well. So many people simply don't count the points this actually puts on the board most of the time. They just say "OMG HE HAS MY CARD WTF NERF" or something like that.
Yes, those cards plays well with YenInvo, that's exactly my point. You need those to play it fully. It's not this all-in-one deal like people make it up to be.
I can't remember the last time I even saw Joachim, you're basically putting a big bullseye on your unit while giving opponents 4 points all while paying 10 provisions for this. If those people didn't have tall removal that's on them. War Council is 8 provisions and shows three cards, again, requires setup for it to be consistent. I'm not saying these are bad cards but they're leagues below the truly best tutors like AA or BE. Roderick is good.
Coup de Grace requires setup you can't just click on the target you want, veiled units in particular are very tricky to get. If YenInvo worked the way you suggested one would only need to wait for the opponent to play their evolve card, click on it then gain Assimilate procs+the best card you could ask for. That's way stronger than current YenInvo although it's a radically different card at that point.
Post automatically merged:
Exactly. If YenInvo and Heatwave like effects are really as strong as they make them up to be I suggest they try them both in a deck and see what happens. Using these make-believe situations where entire decks are composed solely of tall units like Old Speartip just to prove how absolutely op they are is just misleading. This is completely ignoring matchups like SK Warriors where there's no good targets and YenInvo is completely screwed since the opponent gets his deploy effects and the only thing it deletes is the unit body itself.
If they really want that last Ozzrel to stick then they need to work for last say. It's not a sign that YenInvo is somehow broken and needs to be not only nerfed but deleted from the entire game.
YenInvo vs Ozzrel is effectively a 0-0 trade by the way since both players spend 9 provisions for no points, just a fun tidbit for anyone interested
Last edited:
Assimilate deck is a range of big bullseyes though. If they waste their Korathi or something of this kind on a stolen unit, well, my Glynnis can go up to 20 uninterrupted then. Works fine for me. And then I can Coup de Grace Joahim to pull another big-ass engine. Which is actually the main reason I even like him - things he pulls instantly go beyond the cheap removal range, which is invaluable in many situations. They can't possibly have infinite tall removals...unless it's cancerous unitless SC thing, of course. And you need a LOT to try and shut Assimilation down. It's honestly easier to beat it with your own pointslam than to prevent all the engines, but people try to anyway, so bullseye argument is kinda irrelevant.
Also...sure, double Joahim gives your opponent 6 points, but also occupies 2 positions on their side, and considering how swarmy meta is, trust me, ultimately it's more than worth 6 points.
And finally, I never said I wanted new YenInvo to be just an unconditional copy-paste card. In fact, my whole point in that message was that all things in the game should have requirements for it to be fun. What that requirement could be...I am not sure. Perhaps being surronded by two Disloyal units. Makes sense, thematically, and is very much counterable.
edit:How about this - unit (or not necessarily a unit, why not artifact as well?), can be copied if total provision cost of spies you have in that enemy row matches or is larger than cost of what you want to copy. Still manageable, but allows for some non-binary kickass plays.
Post automatically merged:
Also it's not really fair to talk about Warriors in this context. There is NO other effective all-deploy low-value deck. Most of the time Korathi/YenInvo can easily play for at least 150% of their provision cost, often more than that, because most archetypes DO rely on some kind of tall unit.Exactly. If YenInvo and Heatwave like effects are really as strong as they make them up to be I suggest they try them both in a deck and see what happens. Using these make-believe situations where entire decks are composed solely of tall units like Old Speartip just to prove how absolutely op they are is just misleading. This is completely ignoring matchups like SK Warriors where there's no good targets and YenInvo is completely screwed since the opponent gets his deploy effects and the only thing it deletes is the unit body itself.
If they really want that last Ozzrel to stick then they need to work for last say. It's not a sign that YenInvo is somehow broken and needs to be not only nerfed but deleted from the entire game.
YenInvo vs Ozzrel is effectively a 0-0 trade by the way since both players spend 9 provisions for no points, just a fun tidbit for anyone interested
Sure, we could handpick exceptions like Blue Stripes or Warriors, but they are what they are - exceptions.
Meanwhile, even your Ozzrel example isn't entirely fair - your could steal Yghern instead, in which case you clearly win the trade without any risk involved.
Last edited:
I agree that Yen Invo is a good card with a unique effect and auto include, but I do not see a reason to nerf it again (it formerly worked on artifacts).
There is a considerable lack of unique faction specific cards, so I would hate to have another one once again nerfed to unplayability. The two suggestions you made above would do exactly that. As for its usefulness in Assimilate decks, that is more of an issue with the mechanic than the card itself. Assimilate is in a good, competitive spot now, so it is best to leave it alone.
There is a considerable lack of unique faction specific cards, so I would hate to have another one once again nerfed to unplayability. The two suggestions you made above would do exactly that. As for its usefulness in Assimilate decks, that is more of an issue with the mechanic than the card itself. Assimilate is in a good, competitive spot now, so it is best to leave it alone.
Agreed. Yenn needs rebalancing. Few other cards can so powerfully combine both removal and point gain... For example: Remove 10+ point opposition card... Next: summon said card on NG side with any of multiple cards which allow it... Point swing of 20 points (plus or minus depending on whether the original target was boosted). Amazingly useful in first or second round to get the equivalent of an extra gold card by placing it on top of the NG deck. Doesn't even require shuffling in. Wow! Auto-include. Effect which, with minimal planning, outperforms Korathi Heatwave. Very little skill required. All good candidates for rework.