Yenn - Invocation needs a nerf

[ShinAkira00]

AND you have to find a good target for the card as well. So many people simply don't count the points this actually puts on the board most of the time. They just say "OMG HE HAS MY CARD WTF NERF" or something like that.

Lol seriously? Whatever point you put on your opponents board you make up for in the card you played and more + the effects of the card played + triggers your scenario + triggers your engines + adds a target on the board for further setup. All in a single card in a single turn. The points spies give your opponent is silly when any veteran here knows they play far above their provision by removing cards and disrupting strategies, all the while you cannot disrupt theirs because so many of their cards are deploy.

Post automatically merged: Oct 15, 2020

For all those claiming Yenvo is not powerful ask them s simple question. Why hasn't yenvo been swapped out for heatwave? We now have a Meta where heatwave is the only answer to Scenarios and I haven't met a single NG player who has chosen to use it instead of Yenvo. Please tell us why, since yenvo is so weak by comparison.

 

[Philido]

Lol seriously? Whatever point you put on your opponents board you make up for in the card you played and more + the effects of the card played + triggers your scenario + triggers your engines + adds a target on the board for further setup. All in a single card in a single turn. The points spies give your opponent is silly when any veteran here knows they play far above their provision by removing cards and disrupting strategies, all the while you cannot disrupt theirs because so many of their cards are deploy.

Post automatically merged: Oct 15, 2020

For all those claiming Yenvo is not powerful ask them s simple question. Why hasn't yenvo been swamped out for heatwave? We now have a Mets where heatwave is the only answer to Scenarios and I haven't met a single NG player who has chosen to use it instead of Yenvo. Please tell us why, since yenvo is so weak by comparison.

Lol, yes seriously. This post is so confusing that I want to save me the time and don't even try to comprehend it (probably not possible anyway), I'm sorry.

 

[ya1]

For all those claiming Yenvo is not powerful ask them s simple question. Why hasn't yenvo been swapped out for heatwave?

If you're talking about meta spanshots by esport teams, that's because because 95% NG decks that would (VERY arguably) qualify for Tier 3 are either devotion (Ball), get some actual synergy with Yennefer and are super tight on provisions due to 4p limitations (assimilate) or have a 9p cap (hyperthin). Satisfied with the answer?

Honestly, though, we don't really know what has been swapped for what by the general population because general population don't play NG anymore. Outside homebrews in unranked and the ladder tryhards for "extra challenge." The fact that people still discuss nerfs to NG is like... wow...

 

[quintivarium]

The fact that people still discuss nerfs to NG is like... wow...

You just don’t get it. There is such a thing as faction balance, and such a thing as card balance. Very few are arguing that NG is imbalanced as a faction. But it still has three or four of the worst, negatively game-impacting cards: far more than any other faction except maybe SY. When one card eliminates entire styles of play (Ball), when one card eliminates entire archetypes (Yennifer), when one card requires counter or lose (Cahil) those cards are bad for the game. Yes, NG needs help (though it has to be careful not to boost assimilate or mill too much). That doesn’t mean horrible cards should be protected.

 

[ya1]

Yennefer: Invocation is nothing more but a tall banish special that's one provision cheaper than the neutral Heatwave. It has the upside of being able to replay certain units which is more than made up for by the fact that most tall targets have no synergy with NG and just mess up mulligans, and that Yen can't remove artifacts.

In short, Yen is nothing special. It's just a removal card. If it gets so much value that it seems overpowered, it's only because the card it removed was overpowered, or someone played into it by stacking boosts on one unit. Which is the case for every tall removal in the game, and there are over a dozen of them.

When one card eliminates entire styles of play (Ball), when one card eliminates entire archetypes (Yennifer), when one card requires counter or lose (Cahil) those cards are bad for the game.

This is typical NG rant. How does the Ball list with Yennefer eliminate archetypes? At least any more than other popular control list like ST-PS or NR-Mobilization? Control always countered greed. Except NG is too weak now to do even that or it would shine in this super greedy meta. Seriously, no offense but you should get to pro, play you a Ball deck and see how you "eliminate archetypes" there (friendly ).

I agree on Cahir though. CDPR balancing ridiculously overpowered cards by making them "not overpowered in some matchups" or "not overpowered if oppo didn't miss an answer" is just making the game more binary and rock-paper-scissory. But the very fact that you see Cahirs shows how weak NG is to have to crutch on cards like this. Cahir works vs engines and greed decks - decks that should be favorable matchups for NG in the first place (expect boosty swarms where Cahir actually brings soemthing new to the table).

 

[quintivarium]

Yennefer: Invocation is nothing more but a tall banish special that's one provision cheaper than the neutral Heatwave. It has the upside of being able to replay certain units which is more than made up for by the fact that most tall targets have no synergy with NG and just mess up mulligans, and that Yen can't remove artifacts.

In short, Yen is nothing special. It's just a removal card. If it gets so much value that it seems overpowered, it's only because the card it removed was overpowered, or someone played into it by stacking boosts on one unit. Which is the case for every tall removal in the game, and there are over a dozen of them.



This is typical NG rant. How does the Ball list with Yennefer eliminate archetypes? At least any more than other popular control list like ST-PS or NR-Mobilization? Control always countered greed. Except NG is too weak now to do even that or it would shine in this super greedy meta. Seriously, no offense but you should get to pro, play you a Ball deck and see how you "eliminate archetypes" there (friendly ).

I agree on Cahir though. CDPR balancing ridiculously overpowered cards with by making them "not overpowered in some matchups" or "not overpowered if oppo didn't miss an answer" is just making the game more binary and rock-paper-scissory. But the very fact that you see Cahirs shows how weak NG is to have to crutch on cards like this. Cahir works vs engines and greed decks - decks that should be favorable matchups for NG in the first place (expect boosty swarms where Cahir actually brings soemthing new to the table).

Thank you for discussing particular cards. I may not agree, but I think your comments are constructive.

I would like to respond with a bit more detail on why I think Yennifer’s Invocation is a bad (overpowered) card. I dislike it because it does 3 very powerful things: it destroys arbitrary units of choice without limitation or preparation (no interplay with opponent), it gives a player a card of choice (no RNG) from the opponent and positions it to be easily tutored/drawn, and it bypasses the graveyard (effectively disabling graveyard utilizing archetypes). A single card that does one of these three things is not objectionable, but doing all three (at any provision cost) is not reasonable. By the way, I consider Heatwave equally bad for pretty much the same reasons (except instead of giving a card, it destroys any artifact).

 

[fil_faniki]

I see this card every time I play against NG. It's an auto-include in the deck and it's so OP it's ridiculous. Destroying any card you want costs 10 provs with Korathi, but for 1 less provision you get to destroy AND steal any card (meaning Skellige can't resurrect, or Monsters can't consume) and then play it the following round, or even the same round if you've got Cantarella!

You can't consume or resurrect with Korathi Heatwave either. Heatwave doesn't destroy, it banishes

 

[quintivarium]

You can't consume or resurrect with Korathi Heatwave either. Heatwave doesn't destroy, it banishes

And heatwave needs revision for the same reason.

 

[plastiq33]

I also rarely ever win with Cahir but I make decks around it because I think its an interesting card

 

[Baron_Grimswald]

Nah. It's fine.

 

[uber_croupier]

I see this card every time I play against NG. It's an auto-include in the deck and it's so OP it's ridiculous. Destroying any card you want costs 10 provs with Korathi, but for 1 less provision you get to destroy AND steal any card (meaning Skellige can't resurrect, or Monsters can't consume) and then play it the following round, or even the same round if you've got Cantarella!

Unlike Korathi, Yenvo cannot banish artifacts/scenarios. It's a strong card, but not an auto include. It's your role to play around it.

 

[Gimme_a_break]

It's sickening, that this obnoxious card hasn't seen any nerf for this long. Now that the Old Speartip gets up to 18 points, and being yoinked by nilfgard thieves and then played as their own, is simply not right. Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream or Renew are 12 provision and limited to play unit cards with max. 9 provision. Why there's no similar limitation for Invocation, especially when it's just 9 provision? This is not right.

 

[quintivarium]

So there is nothing wrong with with an 18 point card until your opponent uses it?

 

[betraymechino]

Wait, we're still complaining about Invo?

 

[Markus_Wirth]

It's sickening, that this obnoxious card hasn't seen any nerf for this long. Now that the Old Speartip gets up to 18 points, and being yoinked by nilfgard thieves and then played as their own, is simply not right. Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream or Renew are 12 provision and limited to play unit cards with max. 9 provision. Why there's no similar limitation for Invocation, especially when it's just 9 provision? This is not right.

The whole idea of many Nilfgard cards is interacting with your opponent´s deck/strategy. Also one can state that topdecking is a often used tool of NG.

Same holds for Yenn´s Invo:
Can be awesome if you find a great target.
Compared to the often stated heatwave (Yenn´s invo cost one provision less) it can not target artefacts.

Placing your opponents unit at the top of your deck can have positive, negative or even no value:

No value:
- topdeck any card in round 3 and have no access to the topdecked cards via tutors

Negative value:
- You target a heavily boosted token (boosted via specials) or cheap bronze (e.g. Sea Jackal) or card with does not fit into your play strategy (e.g. Harald Gord). Now your deck has one garbage card on top.
- Can be used against mill or to protect from over-hyperthinning

Positive value:
- You targeted a strong opponent unit which you can reuse in the next round or after being tutored. Please keep in mind that often such cards (especially if they are strong deployers) do not have a high power.

Furthermore it´s one out of two NG spells. One should also keep in mind that NR also has access to this card via Gerhart of Aelle.

=> Honestly, I do not consider this card to be problematic. Please do not nerf it.
=> As already stated NG assimilate strategy (in which also fits Yenn´s Invo) heavily suffer from cards which require many things (e.g. fraction specific tutors). Due to the fact that such cards appear to become more and more in Gwent this is a challenge for NG assimilate.

 

[betraymechino]

Furthermore it´s one out of two NG spells.

Oh how I wish it was a tactic

 

[Gimme_a_break]

So there is nothing wrong with with an 18 point card until your opponent uses it?

It's 6 point for 6 provision (Old Speartip Asleep) + 12 point for 11 provision (Old Speartip), so it's not one 18 point card. It becomes such when dirty NG steals it with a broken 9 provision card.

Wait, we're still complaining about Invo?

Yes. Because sweeping the dirt under the rug and keeping it there for years is not a reason to consider it an "OK" solution.

The whole idea of many Nilfgard cards is interacting with your opponent´s deck/strategy. Also one can state that topdecking is a often used tool of NG.

Same holds for Yenn´s Invo:
Can be awesome if you find a great target.
Compared to the often stated heatwave (Yenn´s invo cost one provision less) it can not target artefacts.

Placing your opponents unit at the top of your deck can have positive, negative or even no value:

No value:
- topdeck any card in round 3 and have no access to the topdecked cards via tutors

Negative value:
- You target a heavily boosted token (boosted via specials) or cheap bronze (e.g. Sea Jackal) or card with does not fit into your play strategy (e.g. Harald Gord). Now your deck has one garbage card on top.
- Can be used against mill or to protect from over-hyperthinning

Positive value:
- You targeted a strong opponent unit which you can reuse in the next round or after being tutored. Please keep in mind that often such cards (especially if they are strong deployers) do not have a high power.

Furthermore it´s one out of two NG spells. One should also keep in mind that NR also has access to this card via Gerhart of Aelle.

=> Honestly, I do not consider this card to be problematic. Please do not nerf it.
=> As already stated NG assimilate strategy (in which also fits Yenn´s Invo) heavily suffer from cards which require many things (e.g. fraction specific tutors). Due to the fact that such cards appear to become more and more in Gwent this is a challenge for NG assimilate.

People often compare it to Heatwave, but that's just partially correct. Heatwave removes a card from play permanently, whilst Invocation removes the card from your opponent and gives it to you. And in most cases the pure value the stolen card generates is a lot better than what Heatwave was able to do. Not to mention, that you can still use Heatwave and Invocation in NG deck together, so if people really want to compare Invocation with Heatwave, then why nobody complains about NG running practically 2 Heatwaves?

The argument with no value or negative value is weak. The example with token is not correct in 9/10 cases, because tokens are doomed and disappear. Jackal with NG ability to 'play your opponent's deck' has a high value, because generating coins is not an issue. And even if you Invo a boosted card, that is normally crappy, then you just mulligan it straight away.
And let's be honest, Invocation most often targets valuable cards, because people realize, that they will have a great card to play next round or this round with Joachim.
And it's not always about high power on its own (Speartip was just an example), but what the ability of the card is. For example Gezras is just 5 points, but it can generate a heck ton of points.

About the spell part - doesn't matter actually. Make it tactic - even better for NG, make it cost less provision points - that's also fine, but at least in the same time limit the possible interactions with other cards, just like it happened with the mentioned Renew or Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream.

 

[vultusprime]

So there is nothing wrong with with an 18 point card until your opponent uses it?

Very good point. it seems to me that the original poster simply complained that because of Yenn it ruined his play and could not win. Basically he just wants to remove all the cards that stop him from winning. After that everything is perfectly balanced.

 

[Gimme_a_break]

Very good point. it seems to me that the original poster simply complained that because of Yenn it ruined his play and could not win. Basically he just wants to remove all the cards that stop him from winning. After that everything is perfectly balanced.

You clearly did not read further comments.

 

[Messyr]

Wait, we're still complaining about Invo?

It is unavoidable, really.
Time and time again, someone's play will be ruined by a reckless move into Invocation, getting punished for something greedy.
And thus, they will find their way to this forum, to this certain topic, and leave their mark for history.

Instead of getting into the same argument and reasoning for the 100th time, it is actually better to simply state:
"There is nothing wrong with Yenn: Invo."