Yennefer of Vengerberg (all spoilers) - The Revival

[dragonbird]

Thanks, that does give the info. There's some of those dates from the wiki that I'd dispute as being guesses on the part of the authors, but the critical dates definitely seem to work.

So if you split Yen's captivity in Nilfgaard into three parts rather than two - full prisoner (dungeons, whatever), involuntary house guest, and voluntary house guest, we know from Letho that Yen was already "involuntary house guest" by the time he left Nilfgaard for his mission, so it's probably similar timings to Letho himself - a month or so in prison, six months or so as involuntary house guest, and seven or eight months looking for Ciri?

 

[Scholdarr.452]

The Lodge will still exist nonetheless, so I think it would be better to change its direction from within than just oppose it from outside. It's pretty clear that Philippa is the head of it, but not everyone is happy with that, so an opposition within it could change more.

And why the hell should Yen be interested in doing so?

But in general you are right, why would she join the Lodge, if she is already a member of the council?

She is not a member of the lodge.

In the end it would be better to disband the Lodge and reestablish the council and conclave again, which will happen in the future?

In the end it will be better to banish all magic from earth...which will happen some day in the future no matter what.

From what I recall after the Witch Hunt everything seems to be quite normal again for sorcerers.

According to which lore? When we talk about book lore the whole continent will belong to Nilfgaard in the future. And there is no "free" exercise of the arts in Nilfgaard as we know. If anything the Nilfgaardians will create a new institution to control and channel the mages in the empire. There won't be any more "free" mages that decide about their stuff alone. And there certainly won't be any secret lodge or anything. No Nilfgaardian emperor would allow that and the secret service would hunt them down until even the last one is caught. In Nilfgaard there is only subordination possible - even for mages or especially for mages...

 

[Charcharo]

The Witcher world is fairly realistic and consistent.

No empire. Ever. Will survive forever. Nilfgard will at one point control the continent. And in time, it will die. Simply because... that is as certain as the release of a new CoD game every year. You do not argue with it.

 

[wright1978]

I'm not trying to dispute this. Your explaination is really good and would make 100% sense. However, it's not presented in this way in a game at all - unless you make a big stretch and try to interpret it like this. The facts are : before the quest: Geralt 100% smitten with Yennefer, even if you don't want it (compliments etc), after (when you choose the right option): sorry but the magic is gone (aka sorry but my feelings are gone). A better dialogue or even some internal monologue that Geralt tends to have sometimes would help. But as of now - it's handled really bad IMO.

Yeah agree it could be handled better. As it stands i've got to view his prior smitten behaviour to be wish induced in variant where Geralt wants to move on.

 

[Kallelinski]

And why the hell should Yen be interested in doing so?

To have control on what happens with Ciri.

She is not a member of the lodge.

Yeah I know, she wasn't ever, but she is (or was) the youngest member of the Council.

In the end it will be better to banish all magic from earth...which will happen some day in the future no matter what.

According to which lore? When we talk about book lore the whole continent will belong to Nilfgaard in the future. And there is no "free" exercise of the arts in Nilfgaard as we know. If anything the Nilfgaardians will create a new institution to control and channel the mages in the empire. There won't be any more "free" mages that decide about their stuff alone. And there certainly won't be any secret lodge or anything. No Nilfgaardian emperor would allow that and the secret service would hunt them down until even the last one is caught. In Nilfgaard there is only subordination possible - even for mages or especially for mages...

Of course the books

Well, I meant in "not everybody will burn at a pyre"-future anymore. Magic might be controlled, but it isn't forbidden.

If I have to choose between Radovid and Nilfgaard, I rather take Nilfgaard's subordination than elimination by witch hunters.

---------- Updated at 09:07 PM ----------

I think that Geralt should break some other way, like saying years are passed and he moved on, this way it look like it all was just a Dijin spell atleast for newcomers for series.

The amnesia would have been perfect for this. Without it we wouldn't even have such options to be honest, it would have been a chance for Geralt to reconsider everything in his life and choose again (or none! Many people forget that this isn't just a choice between two women, but also whether Geralt wants rather to be alone again or have just as many women as possible ), just like the player can, but instead of using this as an explanation or build on it, everything is blamed on the wish...and the player has to fabricate his/her own explanation for it or based on that, great.

But there is also a good thing about all of this and those leaked dialogues, because even though it upsets me, a lot, it also showed me that they are unable to explain how Geralt would possibly reject Yennefer within the lore
The only way to reject her is to contradict the lore, I mean, in a way this is quite a pleasure to know. It just shows how much against the lore it goes, if you decide against Yennefer, against the lore, against Geralt's desire and wish.


However I wouldn't say it is impossible to explain within the lore that Geralt could leave Yennefer for final, but not like this, so either they couldn't do it or they simply didn't want to. Those leaked dialogues even show again that instead of explaining it better, they even build it now on a lie.
In the end it's only the player with his/her own opinion, who can choose actively against her, but that's also what the player ever wanted, a free choice, which the player got in the end at the cost of the lore.


Right now I am taking every dialogue about Yennefer or with her apart in my other thread and even if you consider all options (except the last one in The Last Wish quest), you should be able to realize that pretty much nothing has changed between those two, on the contrary it's the same as before, even if you consider dialogue options that are rather against her or oppose her like being grumpy about using the mask or she reading your mind.

The only thing against the canon is the option to blame everything on the wish, which they had to include to make it possible for the player to pursue another woman than Yennefer in the long run.

When you are doings this quest and you are on that boat with Yennefer, before she teleports both to the ship with the djinn, Geralt even says:

Gonna keep bringing that up for the rest of my life?
Of course. Your last wish effectively assured it.
My wish was about us being together always, not about you mocking my every mistake.

So even the game - Geralt himself - tells you that the wish was about them being together, always, that he bound his fate to hers. No mentioning of love or like that, but if you choose the "magic is gone" option, you are not just acting against the lore, but also contradict what Geralt just said couple of minutes ago by saying that the wish was responsible for what was between them.

So for me personally this couldn't be much better than this, because there is only one canon way this is going to be and that's with Yennefer, every other way is against the lore, as the game itself even shows. But in the end people asked foremost for this freedom of choice, while people like me asked also for a good explanation. The former got what they wanted, the latter not so much.

However as I said I am not sad about it either, as it shows to me that they didn't want to screw up the lore in any way more than necessary, except for this little option, which they had to include for all those, who wanted to choose another woman.

On the other hand why Last Wish quest is problem in the first place, just choose I love you Yenn option and you have one of best quests in game. They just sit there for a moment and enjoy in each other forgetting everything else for a moment.

Exactly, if you don't choose that option, the quest just affirms what Geralt said minutes ago that his wish was never responsible for their feelings towards each other. The bond they have is not crafted artificially by the djinn anymore, but now hold together by their feelings to each other.

Still a bit questionable, but I think it was sweet and romantic nonetheless

 

[dmcaldw]

The whole point I think is you can't wish for something that is already there . I avoided this mission on one of my play throughs and the coldness to the break up is still there without the leap of faith in the Djinn . If there was a choice to say I don't love you anymore before the quest so lets get this removed it would be more fitting .

 

[Innamoramento]

According to which lore? When we talk about book lore the whole continent will belong to Nilfgaard in the future.

From book lore I remember, that only Cintra was under Nilfgaard, all other Northern countries was free. And, according to Nimue, mages was free, the Lodge was "Great" the dead sorceresses was saint, the remaining was calles "Great Mothers" and hightly respected. So, rather good future for mages was in the books (after Witch Hunts), It is different for the games of course.

 

[carlos2033]

Exactly, if you don't choose that option, the quest just affirms what Geralt said minutes ago that his wish was never responsible for their feelings towards each other. The bond they have is not crafted artificially by the djinn anymore, but now hold together by their feelings to each other.

Still a bit questionable, but I think it was sweet and romantic nonetheless

Yes there are some questionable moments in that quest, but what i meant under one of best quests in game is the moment when they both realise that it`s not the Dijin spell that binds them together and everything that happen after that in quest, it`s nice moment between them.

 

[ginsuchop]

Can't feel any sorrow. For me it's a parody.

In the big picture view the wish and any kludgy references to it like this quest are irrelevant.
They were destined before birth ("made for each other", "destined for each other" -Sword of Destiny). In other words their meeting, falling in love, him making the wish, Ciri, their inevitable deaths, etc was all predetermined.

Making/cancelling one wish or a dozen means nothing because their underlying thread of destiny means they'll always cross paths again.

 

[Rahelron]

whole point I think is you can't wish for something that is already there . I avoided this mission on one of my play throughs and the coldness to the break up is still there without the leap of faith in the Djinn . If there was a choice to say I don't love you anymore before the quest so lets get this removed it would be more fitting .

So even the game - Geralt himself - tells you that the wish was about them being together, always, that he bound his fate to hers. No mentioning of love or like that, but if you choose the "magic is gone" option, you are not just acting against the lore, but also contradict what Geralt just said couple of minutes ago by saying that the wish was responsible for what was between them.

So for me personally this couldn't be much better than this, because there is only one canon way this is going to be and that's with Yennefer, every other way is against the lore, as the game itself even shows. But in the end people asked foremost for this freedom of choice, while people like me asked also for a good explanation. The former got what they wanted, the latter not so much.

You're overthinking it way too much guys.
I think the love story between Yennefer and Geralt is really well done, and I think that "The Last Wish" quest is really well done too. The only thing I don't like that much about it is the fact that If you choose to tell Yennefer that you don't love her anymore then you two stay together admiring the view just like you do if you choose the other option.

Yeah, the game is not that responsive to the choices players make romance-wise, but this goes in all directions. I chose Yennefer and in the latter stages of the game I was annoyed by the fact that she still treated me in a very cold and bossy way, like there was nothing between us. The lack of responsiveness is a writers' fault, and I hope that they will patch it in 1.09, but it's a different matter. I read all The Witcher Books and yes, if you look very, very, very carefully you can find some things in the Witcher game series that don't perfecly match the canon or that leave some plot hole, but those are very, very, very minor things.

Enjoy the game and accept the writers' choices. Demanding changes just because some characters or cutscenes don't meet you expectations is is never a good thing to do. Remember: every player has a different experience and the developers can't create a version of the game for each and everyone just to satisfy everybody.

 

[xxRENEGADExx]

Demanding changes just because some characters or cutscenes

I think there is no need to change characters or cutscenes - just add more dialogue lines. Instead 1-2 choices gave us 4 for example.

I think it would be great for lore-friendly players to have [optional] possibility to say Yen: Our love is a magic? Nice joke! or Our love is a magic? Nonsense! Or for someone, who liked to play like a jerk-Geralt - Our love is a magic? Woman, you quite stupid, are you? [instand teleport into cold water].
This probably would work with existing cutscenes and pleased all players. Just new [optional] lines in dialogues. Nothing more.

 

[Rahelron]

I think there is no need to change characters or cutscenes - just add more dialogue lines. Instead 1-2 gave us 4 for example.

I think it would be great for lore-friendly players to have [optional] possibility to say Yen: Our love is a magic? Nice joke! or Our love is a magic? Nonsense! Or for someone, who liked to play like a jerk-Geralt - Our love is a magic? Woman, you quite stupid, are you? [instand teleport into cold water].
This probably would work with existing cutscenes and pleased all players. Just new [optional] lines in dialogues. Nothing more.

I agree with you on that. The game needs more responsiveness to player's choices. It needs more lines of dialogue in key cutscenes and needs ad-hoc dialogues in later stages of the game that trigger based on who the player chooses to romance. For example: Yen should be cold and dismissive with you if you choose to drop her, but should be a little bit more caring and gentle if your love story has gone on. The same should happen with Triss. Right now instead, during the final quests there is almost no change to cutscenes and dialogues based on the fact that you chose to romance Triss, Yen, no one, or you screwed it up.

What I was talking about is a different topic: I don't agree on the fact that there are no ways to make the love story between Geralt and Yen end within the lore and that making it end creates plot holes and stuff. That is not true. How long had Geralt and Yen known each other when he asked the djinn to bind their lives forever? Two days? Ok, it was love at first sight, but after years and years things might change... by the time TW3 starts the love that Geralt felt could very well be extingushed, the fact that Yennefer didn't look for him after she recovered could have been the last drop. Maybe not everyone likes this explanation and yes, it goes against everything that Geralt says in TW2 (he wants to find Yennefer at all costs and pretty much everything that happens in that chapter is an unwanted deviation from his goals). But that is the only plot hole I can see and I think we shouldn't worry too much. One could explain that with something that happens in many love stories: you want a girl you can't have really bad, but when you have her you realize you don't want her anymore. Maybe Geralt wanted to find Yennefer, but when he sees her, he realizes that she doesn't seem to care about him anymore, she didn't look for him, the only thing that brought her to contact him is the fact that she wants to find Ciri. That is more than enough to realize that the magic is broken in my book. And remember that I chose Yennefer in my playthrough.

So, as you see a player can forge explanations to make things fit into the lore if he wants to. That's why I think that complaining about the canon and plotholes is pointless. That was the meaning of my reply.

 

[ajiehb]

As I said, it's merely one interpretation, and I'm not trying to win everyone over to the theory, hell I'm not even sure whether it's even one that I personally would subscribe to, but I just enjoy viewing the spectrum when it can be viewed and coming up with little theories and possibilities that might not particularly be thought of by many (And probably not liked either). I really need to end up playing the game a couple more times through before I personally decide to cement my feelings about one specific interpretation, but I thought I'd just throw that one out there.

One thing I can agree with is that it certainly could have been handled better. I wouldn't go so far as to say the situation is handled badly (personally), but certainly there could have been other ways to ensure things came off nicer and didn't quite seem so abrupt, or didn't cause that weird link between the love and the spell (Whether it was accidental or intentional). Whether handling it better would have even been possible considering the state of the narrative, I don't know, it's always tough to try and make suggestions in that kind of vein because it's never quite so simple as just changing/adding a few lines (As we've seen with the upcoming Romance dialogues which frankly just make shit worse), but never-the-less it certainly could have been done better.

As book reader and book lore fan I can say that this quest is a very very bad idea. I can't see any possible positive moment in this quest which just ruin book lore. During their first encounter Geralt felt strange emotions before he made his last wish. I dare say he already fall in love. And of course it has said many times that last wish wasn't about love. About what it was? It's a big mystery and writer will never tell us. It's author choice not to tell us. And it was intentional and it's a very important choice. Now perhaps you could understand how big mistake made CDPR in game with this quest. Writer didn't tell us what Geralt wish was about because that thing is very personal and each person thinks about different things. There isn't simple answer but CDPR gave us this simple answer. I don't understand you when you are trying to defend devs. You are trying to say this situation isn't strait and there are hidden things. But it's clear as 2+2... he is saying magic is gone I don't love you anymore. I don't know how you can see something different in this situation.There wasn't any hints that he doesn't love her before in game to assume that it was just right moment and he was waiting for proper situation. Nothing in game points that magic is gone. And then suddenly we got this quest and this answer. It's just bad design. I understand that you are trying to defend devs. And you are trying to find excuses but seriously can you be honest and say that you think this quest isn't bad? I can understand people who never read the book to think like this but for book reader it's obvious that this is bad decision. I'm not saying that Geralt and Yennefer should be together, no. It's game and there there could be different path for Geralt, nothing wrong with him and Triss as lovers. But they shouldn't make it like Geralt last wish was about love :\ And saying that it wasn't wrong decision... knowing books lore... you really think like this?

 

[xxRENEGADExx]

here wasn't any hints that he doesn't love her before

These hints shouldn't exist. Or they will make Yen choice illogical.
Geralt should have (and he has) feelings for both women in game. And he also should have (and he has) doubts about who is who for him. This allows to give logic to LI choice.

About Yen:

Spoiler

 

[xxgwxx]

About Yen:

Spoiler

I never took it as his 'doubts'. More like there is no name for the 'thing' he has with Yennefer - wife?soulmate?lover? girlfriend?

 

[xxRENEGADExx]

I never took it as his 'doubts'. More like there is no name for the 'thing' he has with Yennefer - wife?soulmate?lover? girlfriend?

I took. It shows that he can't determine at that moment who exactly Yen is for him.

 

[xxgwxx]

It's a big mystery and writer will never tell us. It's author choice not to tell us. And it was intentional and it's a very important choice. Now perhaps you could understand how big mistake made CDPR in game with this quest. Writer didn't tell us what Geralt wish was about because that thing is very personal and each person thinks about different things. There isn't simple answer but CDPR gave us this simple answer

Agree 100%. The Last Wish quest per se is against the lore - because a reader was never supposed to know what exactly the wish was about. CDPR 'ruins' your fun in a way.

But for me it's like beating a dead horse..it happened and nothing will change that. No use crying over spilt milk.

 

[Vigilance.492]

There isn't simple answer but CDPR gave us this simple answer. I don't understand you when you are trying to defend devs. You are trying to say this situation isn't strait and there are hidden things. But it's clear as 2+2... he is saying magic is gone I don't love you anymore.

As I've said it's merely an interpretation, a theory based on what I can see being a possibility within the game/s. It has nothing to do with "defending the devs" (Which is honestly a ridiculous statement to throw about given the context of this discussion in the first place), I've actually been very critical of TW3 and have a myriad of narrative issues, among tons of other problems, I have no reason to start narratively defending them now. I'm simply trying to clear any biases and view the situation from other possible angles, come at it with a fresh/different perspective to discover new interpretations and possibilities, and as I also previously clearly pointed out, the "theory/interpretation" is not even one that I definitely subscribe too.
If you think it's a total load of bollocks, if you've reflected on the quest and are certain that there's only one way to interpret it and it's bad, then that's totally cool, that's your opinion. I understand the angle you guys are coming from, and I can absolutely see how one would view it like that, it's a valid interpretation. I just personally believe there's more to it, there's more to interpret in the situation and I'm simply recommending others take a crack at observing other possibilities within the characters/quest (Could even be something completely new, unrelated to my theory or yours), even if they ultimately come the conclusion it's bollocks and your way of viewing it remains the only correct way.

 

[ajiehb]

As I've said it's merely an interpretation, a theory based on what I can see being a possibility within the game/s. It has nothing to do with "defending the devs" (Which is honestly a ridiculous statement to throw about given the context of this discussion in the first place), I've actually been very critical of TW3 and have a myriad of narrative issues, among tons of other problems, I have no reason to start narratively defending them now. I'm simply trying to clear any biases and view the situation from other possible angles, come at it with a fresh/different perspective to discover new interpretations and possibilities, and as I also previously clearly pointed out, the "theory/interpretation" is not even one that I definitely subscribe too.
If you think it's a total load of bollocks, if you've reflected on the quest and are certain that there's only one way to interpret it and it's bad, then that's totally cool, that's your opinion. I understand the angle you guys are coming from, and I can absolutely see how one would view it like that, it's a valid interpretation. I just personally believe there's more to it, there's more to interpret in the situation and I'm simply recommending others take a crack at observing other possibilities within the characters/quest (Could even be something completely new, unrelated to my theory or yours), even if they ultimately come the conclusion it's bollocks and your way of viewing it remains the only correct way.

So what is behind your idea that there is something more to interpret in the situation? I don't get your motivation as book reader to look for black cat in dark room, especially when there isn't any cat there. The problem isn't just with how they interpret Geralt wish. The whole situation with Gin looks very made-up. Also what with other 2 wishes? The quest and whole situation is so wrong...

You believe that there is something more but what is behind your believe? I believe for example that there is love between Ciri and Avalakh. And I can interpret games situation to explain this POV but it wouldn't be valid because it's out of common sense and witcher world of characters. Same with Gin quest.

 

[Vigilance.492]

I'm sorry Ajiehb but this is very much reminding me of a series of PM's we had, where I've spent hundreds of words trying to as clearly as possible state my points, and yet there's just no level of mutual understanding going on. I'm positive that no matter how many times I sit here and try to clarify my point, which I could (At least by reasonable standards), it's ultimately not going to matter.

Regardless, my intent on delivering the interpretation was more to discuss the characters of Yen/Geralt (Primarily Yen) and how the quest plays into the their history and interactions throughout the game (Renegade's couple posts around mine during the discussion are a good example of someone taking it the correct way and trying to further the discussion). Now, and if the discussion continues, we're not even really talking about the characters (Of which the thread is meant to be a discussion about) and moving over into the world of simply discussing at which level of stupidity the quest itself sits, or my theory about the quest.

I said all I really wanted to say before your reply, so I'm just going to bow out now and let the thread move onto something else, as delving further into this current line-of-thought isn't going to help anyone, certainly not those who are here for titillating discussion about Yennefer.