Yennefer of Vengerberg (all spoilers) - The Revival

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Most kids are bratty around puberty - and Ciri had been through a lot. That's excusable. But when you are over 100 you still make it unpleasant for such a youngster, just because of your own hangups? I don't think that is excusable at all. If you do, we will have to agree to differ :)

Teenagers are absolutely terrible and the fact that even blood related adults put up with them is a small natural miracle in and of itself, (I say that as a former rebellious youth myself, albeit a parent of small children still). They both have strong, abrasive personalities. They clash at first, and not only then, which is not unheard of in real life as well. They do grow out of it pretty quickly (one might argue abnormally so) and develop respect and strong feelings for each other, despite the ego clash. It's a rather accurate depiction of the often fraught parent-child relationship, actually.
 
I love this part from Blood of elves:

"'When I arrived here,' the lady magician suddenly said in her usual, melodious, slightly mocking voice. 'When we first met . . . You didn't like me.' "

and:

"In a minute she's going to ask why I didn't like her, thought Ciri. No, she's too clever to ask such a question. She'll dryly draw my attention to my grammar and ask when I started using the past tense. And I'll tell her. I'll be just as dry as she is, I'll parody her tone of voice, let her know that I, too, can pretend to be cold, unfeeling and indifferent, ashamed of my feelings and emotions. I'll tell her everything. I want to, I have to tell her everything. I want her to know everything before we leave Melitele's Temple. Before we part to finally meet the one I miss. The one she misses. The one who no doubt misses us both. I want to tell her that . . .I'll tell her. It's enough for her to ask.The magician turned from the window and smiled. She did not ask anything. "

:pride2:
 
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Teenagers are absolutely terrible and the fact that even blood related adults put up with them is a small natural miracle in and of itself, (I say that as a former rebellious youth myself, albeit a parent of small children still). They both have strong, abrasive personalities. They clash at first, and not only then, which is not unheard of in real life as well. They do grow out of it pretty quickly (one might argue abnormally so) and develop respect and strong feelings for each other, despite the ego clash. It's a rather accurate depiction of the often fraught parent-child relationship, actually.
Ah, but real parents of a teenager have had many years in which they have proved their love. So there is room for clashing without permanent damage. But for someone very powerful, old and experienced, to meet a vulnerable orphan and treat them badly from the beginning (before the girl has had time to show whether she is a likeable character or not) is cruel.
I have now finished 'Blood of Elves' and found that Yennefer continues to be cruel to Ciri right to the end (as well as having some lighter and better moments'. Here are some examples:
Y to Ciri: "Let's go, my ugly one" C: 'Why do you call me that?" Y: "I promised to be sincere." [how confidence-building, not!]
And bullying threats: "I can paralyse you, force you to drink an elixir, strip you naked, lay you out on the table and examine you for hours..." She does not, of course, do any of these things to Ciri, but imagine how scared the girl must have felt. I think if Geralt had witnessed this he would have been furious; but then Y could have put a spell on him to stop him reacting or even seeing. The fact that Ciri later comes close to Y (after enduring so much) is indicative of how forgiving she is, and how needy she is - like a dog that is kicked but still adores its master.
Now on to 'Time of Contempt' where I hope I will understand Y better. So far there has been little to redeem her, although I think Sapkowski's portrayal is superb.

---------- Updated at 09:39 AM ----------

Hmmm don't take it the wrong way, I'm just curious but it seems to me that you are reading the books while being already biased towards Yennefer and that you try to find every little thing to prove that you're right. For example that quote you misused, choosing to believe that it meant the exact opposite of what Sapkowski actually intended it to mean. I mean one of the things that is awesome about Sapkowski's books is that every single character in there is very complex with both qualities and flaws. Which means that if you look for it you could actually prove that all the characters in the books are very bad people if you choose to only see their bad side. I just hope that you will continue reading and be open minded about that character, I seriously, sincerely do hope so, because you will miss a lot of interesting stuff if you just choose to discard half the information because it's not what you thought it would be.
The knowledge I have of Yennefer before the books is based on W3 and I actually think she is made out to be marginally worse in the game than the books (I have only read the first three). So yes, I began reading because I didn't like her at all so far. I want to understand her and what Geralt sees in her. I agree that imperfect characters are a lot more interesting to read about than goody-goodies. I do have moral boundaries, though, crossing which might stop me from truly loving a character. Unjustified unkindness to kids is one of those boundaries so I am finding Y very hard to like at the moment. I will persevere and maybe change my mind later in the series. Hats off to the author for having developed a character (well, more than one character) who are interesting enough to make us consider and discuss them so deeply.
 
them badly from the beginning (before the girl has had time to show whether she is a likeable character or not) is cruel.
I have now finished 'Blood of Elves' and found that Yennefer continues to be cruel to Ciri right to the end (as well as having some lighter and better moments'. Here are some examples:
Y to Ciri: "Let's go, my ugly one" C: 'Why do you call me that?" Y: "I promised to be sincere." [how confidence-building, not!]
And bullying threats: "I can paralyse you, force you to drink an elixir, strip you naked, lay you out on the table and examine you for hours..." She does not, of course, do any of these things to Ciri, but imagine how scared the girl must have felt. I think if Geralt had witnessed this he would have been furious; but then Y could have put a spell on him to stop him reacting or even seeing. The fact that Ciri later comes close to Y (after enduring so much) is indicative of how forgiving she is, and how needy she is - like a dog that is kicked but still adores its master.
Now on to 'Time of Contempt' where I hope I will understand Y better. So far there has been little to redeem her, although I think Sapkowski's portrayal is superb.

I have to disagree with your interpretation a bit of her at this point (you are free to maintain your vision of course, but I just want to point some slight things out here)

- she isn't threatening Ciri, she's being honest that she could do her examination any other way and it'd be faster, but she treats her like a person and goes through all the toils and efforts. Yennefer also states that she doesn't want to bring shame on herself by doing such methods nor the temple. She tells Ciri she doesn't because she can clearly see Ciri is a bright and intelligent young girl.
- Also Yennefer calling Ciri "ugly one" was a mistranslation from Polish, she calls her more like "her ugly duckling". At the end of Blood of Elves Ciri says that she wants to be as pretty as her, but Yennefer says that she is indeed very pretty. She states that she is very lucky. And the ugly duckling is more like a tease rather then being cruel in my opinion.
 
Y to Ciri: "Let's go, my ugly one" C: 'Why do you call me that?" Y: "I promised to be sincere." [how confidence-building, not!]

Uh? The way she calls her "ugly one" is a sign of affection actually. The part about being sincere is a JOKE. Also the translation is.... not exactly wrong, but not that good either, in polish you can clearly tell that it's not meant to be mean. The way Ciri protests that she doesn't like it.... well have your parents never given you nicknames that you don't like out of affection? Did you miss the part where Yen says to Ciri that she is lucky enough to be beautiful without having to use magic?
Regarding the confidence building part, did you miss all the parts where Yen is teaching Ciri and encouraging her? The way she always listens to the girl's needs and adapt her teachings to Ciri's needs? Did you miss how Ciri is actually trying to become more like Yen because she truly admires and respects her?



The fact that Ciri later comes close to Y (after enduring so much) is indicative of how forgiving she is, and how needy she is - like a dog that is kicked but still adores its master.

Absolutely not. It shows that Ciri actually sees past Yennefer's mask and sees just how loving and caring she is. Remember the part when Yen was blaming herself for Ciri being hurt during one of the lessons and she was beginning to shut down her emotions again, and Ciri just saw right through that and hugged her? Remember the part at the end when Ciri is basically thinking that Yen likes to PRETEND to be cold and not care? Ciri KNOWS how Yen really feels about her, she KNOWS Yen can be sarcastic and hard to get sometimes. Ciri is one of those characters who sees right through Yen and understand her completely, and she does love her very much because she gets the whole picture and not just the rough outside. Saying that Ciri is that poor little broken girl that is so needy she has to crawl to anyone who would have her is having a really wrong opinion of CIRI actually. The girl is way stronger and smarter than that.



Now on to 'Time of Contempt' where I hope I will understand Y better. So far there has been little to redeem her, although I think Sapkowski's portrayal is superb.

Well I can actually tell that you won't understand Yen better, because you just don't want to. And that's ok, it's up to you. But I just love those books so much and seeing people reading them like that, being biased all along, not wanting to change their opinion about it for the world.... Well it makes me sad. And I would sincerely be very glad to talk with you about Yen and help you understand the character, but I am under the impression that you are not interested in hearing me out anyway so...
 
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@zappy3 - please can you cut out your ad hominem remarks about me. I am discussing the game and the books with sincerity and honesty because they interest me. I don't pretend to have read the original Polish so I can only go on the English translation, which I gather leaves a lot to be desired.
 
@zappy3 - please can you cut out your ad hominem remarks about me. I am discussing the game and the books with sincerity and honesty because they interest me. I don't pretend to have read the original Polish so I can only go on the English translation, which I gather leaves a lot to be desired.

You're right, I'm sorry, I didn't really mean it like that. It's more.... I'm just trying to understand the way you are reading the books, because once again in your posts here you seem to be focusing on some very specific sentences, taken out of their context, while totally ignoring the hints around them that give them their real meaning. If your purpose while reading the books is to understand Yen better and get the whole picture about her, well it seems to me that the way to do that is to focus more on the positive aspects of her personality, you know since you ALREADY know the negative parts apparently? Because trust me, with the very same parts you have been reading I could make posts ten times as long as yours to show you how great, and generous, and loving Yen is... So there is good to be found about her there too. And no I am NOT saying that you should ignore everything she does wrong, because God knows she is not perfect, far from it actually, I'm just saying that you will never understand her if you don't try to see the whole picture.
And I was being sincere when I said that I would gladly discuss both the books and Yen with you.
 
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Being a huge fantasy reader, sometimes I find boring or disgusting the stories where the hero can have sex with any woman, because those women can’t wait to have sex with him. In those stories women are the hero’s prize, the warrior’s reward, and as such they have nothing to say, they can only moan and faint in the hero’s strong arms.

I'm just thinking that it's a good thing that Sapko never played the first game
:facepalm: :smiling2:
 
Ah, but real parents of a teenager have had many years in which they have proved their love. So there is room for clashing without permanent damage. But for someone very powerful, old and experienced, to meet a vulnerable orphan and treat them badly from the beginning (before the girl has had time to show whether she is a likeable character or not) is cruel.
I have now finished 'Blood of Elves' and found that Yennefer continues to be cruel to Ciri right to the end (as well as having some lighter and better moments'. Here are some examples:
Y to Ciri: "Let's go, my ugly one" C: 'Why do you call me that?" Y: "I promised to be sincere." [how confidence-building, not!]
And bullying threats: "I can paralyse you, force you to drink an elixir, strip you naked, lay you out on the table and examine you for hours..." She does not, of course, do any of these things to Ciri, but imagine how scared the girl must have felt. I think if Geralt had witnessed this he would have been furious; but then Y could have put a spell on him to stop him reacting or even seeing. The fact that Ciri later comes close to Y (after enduring so much) is indicative of how forgiving she is, and how needy she is - like a dog that is kicked but still adores its master.
Now on to 'Time of Contempt' where I hope I will understand Y better. So far there has been little to redeem her, although I think Sapkowski's portrayal is superb.

---------- Updated at 09:39 AM ----------

Mhm... At the end of the day everyone is free to interpret the text as they see fit so I won't pester you too much with my take on it.

Maybe some things were indeed lost in translation or even differ from language to language (I have read the German versions some time ago and only skimmed the English ones; I find the fan translations rather grim), because I never saw threats and bullying coming from Yennefer towards Ciri. There was joking (including the sarcastic type, which some folk simply don't respond well to), ocassional snark, and little mollycoddling, on both sides, which is why most of their interactions seemed to indicate that Ciri was treated more like a strong-headed and promising youth than a poor wretched kid with a bad start in life.
 
I have now finished 'Blood of Elves' and found that Yennefer continues to be cruel to Ciri right to the end

Well if you have finished this book and STILL see it that way..sigh...I'm afraid you will never understand her character or her motivations. You are nitpicking the most unimportant parts of her behaviour while ignoring everything else that happens between her & Ciri that show how much they care about each other and what is displayed over a good last part of "Blood of Elves". I really don't know what else Sapkowski could have written to be more clear on that. It's hard to discuss it with someone who is rather prejudiced from the beginning. You seem to have a certain (bad) image of Yennefer and you're using every slightly negative thing she does or say against her, as if it's supposed to back up your argument. All the positives? Nope, they don't matter.

---------- Updated at 11:06 AM ----------

Absolutely not. It shows that Ciri actually sees past Yennefer's mask and sees just how loving and caring she is. Remember the part when Yen was blaming herself for Ciri being hurt during one of the lessons and she was beginning to shut down her emotions again, and Ciri just saw right through that and hugged her? Remember the part at the end when Ciri is basically thinking that Yen likes to PRETEND to be cold and not care? Ciri KNOWS how Yen really feels about her, she KNOWS Yen can be sarcastic and hard to get sometimes. Ciri is one of those characters who sees right through Yen and understand her completely, and she does love her very much because she gets the whole picture and not just the rough outside. Saying that Ciri is that poor little broken girl that is so needy she has to crawl to anyone who would have her is having a really wrong opinion of CIRI actually. The girl is way stronger and smarter than that.

Exactly. Ciri is not some masochist, she's a clever girl. If she felt that she was being mistreated by Yennefer, she would run away (during their first meeting she even says so, that she's going to take a horse and run away). But she doesn't, because after getting know Yennefer better, she likes her. And then loves like a mother. She likes being taught magic and gets sad when Yennefer is disappointed with her. She waits until she returns from the town or whatever and runs and hugs her. She shows her much more affection than she has ever shown to Geralt. I know that the game is not the best at reflecting that, but it's a fact.
And calling her "ugly one" has nothing to do with bullying. First of all, it's not the best translation (in Polish it sounds like an endearing nickname). And secondly, it's nothing but a playful banter that Yennefer knows Ciri can handle. What is important is that Yennefer doesn't even think that because she straight up tells her that she's very pretty without magic.
 
I haven't read the books yet (only the first one, have all the fan translation on my tablet but they are waiting for the past year for me to read them (had an eye problem that prevented me from reading something from close distance, each eye fought to get focus resulting in severe headache after one or two pages)) and i am trying to deduct stuff from what you are saying here sorry if i am making mistakes.

First of all translation can change the meaning of everything, some nicknames can be sound endearing in one language and humiliating in another. calling a girl pumpkin in english is nice, call a girl pumpkin in hebrew will mean that you see her as a very fat and lazy person, you can say the same about the difference between ugly duckling and ugly one.

Another issue. Parents have a lot of time to prepare for their children puberty, they know their meaning and can adapt to it, a person who doesn't know the child will not tolerate this behavior, this impression will change in time.

Some parents are sarcastic when they are talking to their children and the children are acting in the same way, i guess that you will be shocked if you will hear how my elder daughter and i are talking to eachother, my daughter call me crazy and insane and i see it as a compliment.
 
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I love the part were Ciri even banters back at Yennefer, she responds really amused/surprised about it.

Yeah, when she uses the "magicians are malicious" part against her :p

---------- Updated at 12:00 PM ----------

First of all translation can change the meaning of everything, some nicknames can be sound endearing in one language and humiliating in another. calling a girl pumpkin in english is nice, call a girl pumpkin in hebrew will mean that you see her as a very fat and lazy person, you can say the same about the difference between ugly duckling and ugly one.

And that's exactly the case here...If I heard someone calling someone "an ugly one", without context, I'd be put off as well probably. But if you phrase it as a diminutive, tenderly (as Yennefer does in the original version) then that's another story..


English translation is really the worst, compared to others. Jeez, they can't even get the title of the book right (Tower of SwallowS :facepalm2:)
 
Yeah, when she uses the "magicians are malicious" part against her :p

Precisely. There is no indication that Ciri is traumatized by Yennefer's tutelage, if anything she seems to want more. She can take the mordancy and she can dish it out too, and there is a level of understanding between them. I guess it's just not what some people expect from a relationship between an adult and a kid, but I can appreciate it. It's how I grew up and how my husband and I occasionally interact with our own brood. Maybe it's an Eastern Bloc thing...
 
Some parents are sarcastic when they are talking to their children and the children are acting in the same way, i guess that you will be shocked if you will hear how my elder daughter and i are talking to eachother, my daughter call me crazy and insane and i see it as a compliment.

Exactly that. That's why I don't like those quotes being used out of their context. Sure they sound bad put like that, but that's just the way Yen and Ciri interact with each other and show affection to each other. And it can be clearly seen in the books that not only Ciri doesn't mind but that she likes it and plays along.


And that's exactly the case here...If I heard someone calling someone "an ugly one", without context, I'd be put off as well probably. But if you phrase it as a diminutive, tenderly (as Yennefer does in the original version) then that's another story..


English translation is really the worst, compared to others. Jeez, they can't even get the title of the book right (Tower of SwallowS :facepalm2:)

To be fair polish is not an easy language to translate into english (or french for that matter since I've read both english and french translations). In that particular case, Polish uses diminutives like this on a daily basis, including with first names etc.... this has absolutely no equivalent in either english or french. The english translation is pretty bad though. The french one is not so much better.... But yeah it seems that a lot gets lost in translation with those books....
 
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simple - ugly one is wrong translation - in Time of Contempt the translator suddenly used ugly duckling...lol

in Polish:
brzydula = UGLY ONE
brzydulka = little (cute) ugly one (similar to ugly duckling)

Also if you would be interested to understand Yen as character more...,maybe you can listen some of the Polish samples I made...I added to them English subtitles so you can hear original and read it in English - just switch on the English subs :) you can also check other samples with Essi, Triss, Yen/Geralt etc.

Here is my fav samples with Ciri/Yen from Blood of Elves :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOKkMFJPf6I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrI5C7kucH0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5wL9eW1i9Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvbNvlNqpx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgKJfUcuK5k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siNrtdQHNWY
 
Also if you would be interested to understand Yen as character more...,maybe you can listen some of the Polish samples I made...

I second that, those audiobooks are just wonderful and the Polish actress Anna Dereszowska nailed the part. She really understood perfectly the character, very subtle voice acting. It helped me to get a deeper understanding of the character as well even though I already loved Yen.
 
English translation is really the worst, compared to others. Jeez, they can't even get the title of the book right (Tower of SwallowS
Now I am glad that I opted agains the English translation. I was torn between buying the books in my native language (all already translated), or in English, so that I can quote from the books for communication about them in the forum here. ;)

In comparison to the english fan translation texts from the internet, the one I bought is a lot more fluid and better quality. No idea how the official english translation is like.
 
No idea how the official english translation is like.

Not so good, but I guess it is better then doing. Last summer I bought the English one's (the UK version) until Babtism of fire, then I discovered that they were also translated in my native language (and thank gosh I don't have to wait a whole year for Lady of the Lake). And I was surprised that my native language translation was better then the English one.
 
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