Yennefer of Vengerberg (all spoilers) - The Revival

[Adonai-]

In a way I was a bit disppointed in SoS after finishing it for the first time, mainly because it didn't add much to the whole series, but little scenes like these are golden.

I don't know, it's kind of like one of those biggish sidequests in TW3 which has no impact on the main story at all, but is just so good regardless.

Plus we have that scene where she does what he couldn't do the entire book - get his damn swords back - which was golden

 

[Adonai-]

Oh, now this seems like a fun website that CDPR just retweeted:

 

[Thomas999]

Meh, I don't really like Yennefer. I don't think she's prettier than Triss, I don't think she's "a strong, independent woman", I think her behavior in the game is understandable but not okay, I think her behavior in the books is definitely not okay, I don't think she's good for Geralt, I don't think Geralt is good for her and I think the two of them being bound to each other for decades because of an impulsive decision is a tragedy, and written as such.

I think she's a terrible example of a modern female role model, which is to say essentially an old-fashioned man with breasts, and it saddens me a lot to see so many gamers laud her as the "true" LI for Geralt and pretend that she's the perfect woman to spend ones' life with when I feel pretty confident saying that most would hate to actually meet her in real life, to say nothing of being in a relationship with her for more than a week. Not that she would spare them so much as a glance in the first place.

I enjoy her character for what it is and what she adds to both the books and the games and also recognize that she adores Ciri and Geralt, but I also think she's a silly, spiteful and unsociable woman who deserves pity and indifference far more than admiration. I have no problem whatsover calling her a real and absolute bitch, and I don't feel guilty or consider myself the tiniest bit sexist or prejudiced for thinking any of these things.

Thank you. :cheers:

 

[Garrison72]

 

[Gilthoniel]

Meh, I don't really like Yennefer. I don't think she's prettier than Triss

Ok congrats then for not liking Yennefer I guess?...

I think her behavior in the books is definitely not okay

she's a silly, spiteful and unsociable woman who deserves pity and indifference far more than admiration. I have no problem whatsover calling her a real and absolute bitch

Yes I agree with you so much.

She used him and was bitch when he asked her to help cure Dandelion.

She also used him and was bitch when she cured Dandelion and send him to help free Geralt.

She used him and was bitch when she took all the blame.

She used him and was bitch when they lived together in Vengerberg.

She used him and was bitch when Triss and he fucked.

She used him and was bitch when she taught Ciri magic.

She used him and was bitch when she invited him to come with her to Thanedd.

She used him and was bitch when she tried to find and help Ciri.

She used him and was bitch when she sat there in Vilgefortz’ castle and was tortured.

She used him and was bitch when he fucked Fringilla.

She used him and was bitch when they both faced Emhyr together.

She used him and was bitch when he died in Rivia, holding her, realizing how much he loved her.


From that we learn:

Yes, Yennefer of Vengerberg is a vicious bloodsucking monster and Geralt of Rivia is the knight in shining white armor. Yennefer is a villain who is not human but an abomination that only exists to enable the story and invoked horrors from the deepest part of hell and finally was defeated by Geralt the true hero who is certainly not a human because he was so immaculate and truly far away from a realistic character let alone a dirty human.

Thank you

 

[Thomas999]

Ok congrats then for not liking Yennefer I guess?...





Yes I agree with you so much.

She used him and was bitch when he asked her to help cure Dandelion.

She also used him and was bitch when she cured Dandelion and send him to help free Geralt.

She used him and was bitch when she took all the blame.

She used him and was bitch when they lived together in Vengerberg.

She used him and was bitch when Triss and he fucked.

She used him and was bitch when she taught Ciri magic.

She used him and was bitch when she invited him to come with her to Thanedd.

She used him and was bitch when she tried to find and help Ciri.

She used him and was bitch when she sat there in Vilgefortz’ castle and was tortured.

She used him and was bitch when he fucked Fringilla.

She used him and was bitch when they both faced Emhyr together.

She used him and was bitch when he died in Rivia, holding her, realizing how much he loved her.


From that we learn:

Yes, Yennefer of Vengerberg is a vicious bloodsucking monster and Geralt of Rivia is the knight in shining white armor. Yennefer is a villain who is not human but an abomination that only exists to enable the story and invoked horrors from the deepest part of hell and finally was defeated by Geralt the true hero who is certainly not a human because he was so immaculate and truly far away from a realistic character let alone a dirty human.

Thank you

Heh, I guess I struck a nerve, then. And forgive me, but this thread struck me as one meant for discussing Yennefer's character. But thank you for setting up a series of ridiculous imaginary arguments that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about and and then blowing them down all by yourself(I hate people who use the actual word 'strawman' in conversation, it sounds so pretentious).

Although some of your statements don't quite fit. She was, in fact, quite a bitch during her introductory story, hurting and endangering a lot of people first on a spiteful whim and later for ambition and yes, using Geralt and landing him in deep shit and potential mortal danger for it. She is also, in fact, however understandably given their history and the late point at which she learns the full story, a bitch about Triss and Geralt in the game.

And in any case, one can be a bitch and teach a child magic, and unintentionally make occasional grand romantic gestures, and go through hell, and still be a bitch. Being occasionally virtuous or a survivor of hardship doesn't magically make you a nicer or more sensitive person in general, and as a rule Yennefer treats others like shit.

Being caring in the slightest or sticking her neck out for others is, in fact, exceptional behavior for her. Which makes her a bitch. In the same sense, an asshole who does all the same things will still be, and deserve to be called, an asshole at the end of the day. He might deserve credit for all his good deeds independently of being a jerk, like Yennefer does, but a jerk is still a jerk, an asshole is still an asshole and a bitch is still a bitch. Brave, sure, caring towards very specific people within very specific parameters, obviously, but still quite a bitch, and a shameless one at that.

And nobody is calling Geralt perfect in comparison, but as this thread seems to be about Yennefer and not him I can't imagine why you would bring him up in this context.

 

[Gilthoniel]

And in any case, one can be a bitch and teach a child magic, and unintentionally make occasional grand romantic gestures, and go through hell, and still be a bitch. Being occasionally virtuous or a survivor of hardship doesn't magically make you a nicer or more sensitive person in general, and as a rule Yennefer treats others like shit.

Being caring in the slightest or sticking her neck out for others is, in fact, exceptional behavior for her. Which makes her a bitch. In the same sense, an asshole who does all the same things will still be, and deserve to be called, an asshole at the end of the day. He might deserve credit for all his good deeds independently of being a jerk, like Yennefer does, but a jerk is still a jerk, an asshole is still an asshole and a bitch is still a bitch. Brave, sure, caring towards very specific people within very specific parameters, obviously, but still quite a bitch, and a shameless one at that.

And nobody is calling Geralt perfect in comparison, but as this thread seems to be about Yennefer and not him I can't imagine why you would bring him up in this context.

I think it's too simplistic and naive to piegeonhole characters as "bitch", "traitor", etc. If people want why dont we just call Geralt a sarcastic dick who pretty much is a poor father figure; Yennefer a cold-hearted, bitter shrew: Triss a scheming, traitorous coward who is obssesed with Geralt; and Ciri an immature murderous brat.

I understand you don't like Yennefer I respect your opinion But don't really see it the same way as you do. And regarding the "rule" that Yennefer treats others like shit...well during the saga we are learning she is helping random people - Giancardi dwarven family from the pogrom, helping Geralt since the beginning without him knowing it, helping Dandelion against Rience, helping random pregnant woman in Skellige, caring about Hjalmar to not be on the ship during the suicide mission. No other sorceress is described helping other people only their own cause.

As it was posted here before - here is a great part regarding Yennefer from the Witcher from Polish popcultural phenomenon (university study):

In a dying universe of mages, Yennefer seems to be the only one who’s saved. She in fact - though at first presented as a typical, cold, calculating, ruthless and arrogant member of the Brotherhood - with the development of the story, undergoes a metamorphosis. Her otherness is signaled, however discreetly, from the beginning, even the style of dress - elegant, but limited to only two colors: black and white. Another sign of the uniqueness of sorceress from Vengerberg, turns out to be her big dream of motherhood - as I have already said, no other magician expressed similar desires, even though the majority of them (as requested Tissaia de Vries in her work The poisoned Source) has been deprived of the ability procreation, which could raise their grief. The rare, among the representatives of the analyzed profession, psychological depth, is also proved in a Shard of Ice short story when Yennefer compares herself to the Ice Queen and regrets that she cannot love. Not without significance is the fact that - despite widespread promiscuity among wizards - after reconciliation with the witcher in Hirundum, lady of Vengerberg remains absolutely faithful to him. Finally, the transformation of Yennefer - her humanization - is consolidated by her, growing against all odds, feeling towards Ciri and Geralt. As you can see, Sapkowski - the creator of Anti - Tale - at the end of the story about the witcher, returns to the constitutive truth of classic fairy tales: love conquers all evil.

 

[Samiel27]

Heh, I guess I struck a nerve, then. And forgive me, but this thread struck me as one meant for discussing Yennefer's character. But thank you for setting up a series of ridiculous imaginary arguments that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about and and then blowing them down all by yourself(I hate people who use the actual word 'strawman' in conversation, it sounds so pretentious).

Although some of your statements don't quite fit. She was, in fact, quite a bitch during her introductory story, hurting and endangering a lot of people first on a spiteful whim and later for ambition and yes, using Geralt and landing him in deep shit and potential mortal danger for it. She is also, in fact, however understandably given their history and the late point at which she learns the full story, a bitch about Triss and Geralt in the game.
And in any case, one can be a bitch and teach a child magic, and unintentionally make occasional grand romantic gestures, and go through hell, and still be a bitch. Being occasionally virtuous or a survivor of hardship doesn't magically make you a nicer or more sensitive person in general, and as a rule Yennefer treats others like shit.

Being caring in the slightest or sticking her neck out for others is, in fact, exceptional behavior for her. Which makes her a bitch. In the same sense, an asshole who does all the same things will still be, and deserve to be called, an asshole at the end of the day. He might deserve credit for all his good deeds independently of being a jerk, like Yennefer does, but a jerk is still a jerk, an asshole is still an asshole and a bitch is still a bitch. Brave, sure, caring towards very specific people within very specific parameters, obviously, but still quite a bitch, and a shameless one at that.
And nobody is calling Geralt perfect in comparison, but as this thread seems to be about Yennefer and not him I can't imagine why you would bring him up in this context.

I just wanted to say I really like the family dynamic between Geralt, Ciri, and Yennefer. Canon Geralt sees her as his love and not a 'mistake' like other lovers and Ciri sees her as her mother. I love it when she wants to be called "Cirilla of Vengerberg" and not any other name. Ciri does't see her as her aunt or sister, but her mother (Geralt her father) and that made me smile. I know you don't like her personality, but I really like how Sapkowski wrote her to defend Ciri and not wilt and cower in the face of the Lodge. She trusts Geralt and doesn't doubt him as can be seen on Emhyr's ship, after Bald Mountain, and at the climax of the game. She can be flirty with Geralt and not fling herself at him like a sterotypical fantasy romance. One of the aspects CDPR did really well is that she doesn't get inebriated by alcohol at the banquet due to her goal of looking for Ciri.

I really appreciate the new, insightful, and deep analysis of the character, it could really change my mind of how I view Yennefer and her relationship with Geralt and Ciri. If you want to bring Triss in to the topic please post it into the Yen vs Triss thread. The fans who like her character will enjoy the canonical ending of the books and the Curse of Crows comic which CDPR created. Thank you again for contributing to this thread.

 

[Thomas999]

I think it's too simplistic and naive to piegeonhole characters as "bitch", "traitor", etc. If people want why dont we just call Geralt a sarcastic dick who pretty much is a poor father figure; Yennefer a cold-hearted, bitter shrew: Triss a scheming, traitorous coward who is obssesed with Geralt; and Ciri an immature murderous brat.

That's not pigeonholing, that's simply describing the character. Pigeonholing would be pretending that there's nothing more to her, which I'm not. Still doesn't make the description any less valid.

The author of your little excerpt, on the other hand, has some hilariously... absolute... ideas about love, relationships and personal growth. I don't know about you, but I fight my own biochemistry tooth and nail every single day just to lead a vaguely dignified life, come off as a vaguely respectable person and be vaguely consistent and charitable in how I think about and treat the universe in a torrent of stresses and changing outside influences and complex emotions.

Assuming that's more or less the average human experience, the idea of "consolidated" "transformations" read between the lines of a handful of scenes spread over an entire book series, none describing more than an hour or so of a character's life, is beyond presumptuous and simplistic. I'd accuse the author of being deliberately dense or pretending that they're part of a different species if it wasn't obvious that they've just clean forgotten to look at Yennefer as a person instead of a simplified set of behaviors wrapped up and waiting for simplistic analysis.

I just wanted to say I really like the family dynamic between Geralt, Ciri, and Yennefer. Canon Geralt sees her as his love and not a 'mistake' like other lovers and Ciri sees her as her mother. I love it when she wants to be called "Cirilla of Vengerberg" and not any other name. Ciri does't see her as her aunt or sister, but her mother (Geralt her father) and that made me smile. I know you don't like her personality, but I really like how Sapkowski wrote her to defend Ciri and not wilt and cower in the face of the Lodge. She trusts Geralt and doesn't doubt him as can be seen on Emhyr's ship, after Bald Mountain, and at the climax of the game. She can be flirty with Geralt and not fling herself at him like a sterotypical fantasy romance. One of the aspects CDPR did really well is that she doesn't get inebriated by alcohol at the banquet due to her goal of looking for Ciri.

I really appreciate the new, insightful, and deep analysis of the character, it could really change my mind of how I view Yennefer and her relationship with Geralt and Ciri. If you want to bring Triss in to the topic please post it into the Yen vs Triss thread. The fans who like her character will enjoy the canonical ending of the books and the Curse of Crows comic which CDPR created. Thank you again for contributing to this thread.

I like that dynamic too. I like the dynamic even more because, canonically, the dynamic actually mirrors a separated couple passing their daughter between them, and not a family living together. They occasionally come together for her sake and are occasionally overwhelmed with passion and fall into bed with each other, but they're never a tight-knit and convenient little family unit the way you make them sound, and Ciri loves both of them and both of them love her regardless.

That's definitely lovely, yes, and I'm currently enjoying the Curse of Crows comic too even though it doesn't coincide with my favorite game ending. I enjoyed the ending of the books as well, although I didn't read Yen's surge of affection and emotional instability after months of torture and isolation and several near-death experiences as particularly indicative of her and Geralt suddenly being set for an eternity of bliss together, the way some obviously have.

And I do like Yennefer as a character, just not as a person or on a pedestal.

 

[Samiel27]

I like that dynamic too. I like the dynamic even more because, canonically, the dynamic actually mirrors a separated couple passing their daughter between them, and not a family living together. They occasionally come together for her sake and are occasionally overwhelmed with passion and fall into bed with each other, but they're never a tight-knit and convenient little family unit the way you make them sound, and Ciri loves both of them and both of them love her regardless.

I don't think they're supposed to be a "traditional family", but I don't view them as a 'seperated' couple who "passes their daughter between themselves". You can personally view it that way if you want and if it suits your ending in the games, but canon wise Yennefer met Ciri when she was seperated from Geralt. Going along with the themes of the book Ciri served as 'something more' for Geralt and Yennefer. Only after Ciri runs away do they reoncile--they never break off their relationship, it's only the 'circumstances' of the Thanned coup that seperates them. One aspect of the game that I was really dissapointed in was CDPR's portrayl of the relationship among Ciri, Geralt, and Yennefer. Whether or not it was due to certain romance choices, it's an aspect that was clearly lacking in the game.

I enjoyed the ending of the books as well, although I didn't read Yen's surge of affection and emotional instability after months of torture and isolation and several near-death experiences as particularly indicative of her and Geralt suddenly being set for an eternity of bliss together, the way some obviously have.

Surge of affection? Emotional instability? She was always loving towards Geralt and Ciri following Blood of Elves. If you're trying to insinuate that Sapkowski intended Yennefer's 'surge of affection' to be a by product of the torture then I think you're downplaying her relationship among the other two. Yennefer always viewed Ciri as her daughter after they bonded at the Temple of Melitele. Geralt and Yennefer did have a 'happy' ending as presented in the books:


He felt the delicate touch of fingers on his temple and his cheek. Fingers he knew. He loved her so much that it hurt. His stomach, chest and ribs ached, and a corset of tight bandages convinced him completely that the pitchfork in the city of Rivia had not been a nightmare.
“Lay quietly, my love,” said Yennefer. “Lay quietly. Do not move.”
“Where are we, Yen?”
“Does it matter? We are together. You and me.”

She shifted and gently freed her arm from under his head, and lay beside him on the grass so that she could look into his eyes. She looked eagerly, as if she would memorise his image, as if to save it for the future, for all eternity. He also looked at her as nostalgia gripped his throat.

“Lay still, my love. Lay still. I’m with you. It does not matter what happened, it does not matter where we were. Now I’m with you. I will never leave you. Never.”
“I love you, Yen.”
“I know.”

 

[toudis815]

The author of your little excerpt, on the other hand, has some hilariously... absolute... ideas about love, relationships and personal growth

The author of this excerpt didn't reveal her ideas about love, but analysed what's in the books, and witcher is some kind of modern fairy tale, so I think that this interpretation "Sapkowski - the creator of Anti - Tale - at the end of the story about the witcher, returns to the constitutive truth of classic fairy tales: love conquers all evil." is pretty much legit.

 

[Kallelinski]

Meh, I don't really like Yennefer. I don't think she's prettier than Triss,

So Triss is hotter, I see, great argument, especially if we are talking about character traits.

I don't think she's "a strong, independent woman",

Because?

Her whole life she never was dependent on someone else, to not let people into her life, that was one of her weakness, even though she thought that was to make her strong. To not trust others and only trust herself. That changed with Geralt and Ciri, she changed for the better.

We also see that in the game. She tells him several times to come back safely, because she doesn't want to lose him again, she wouldn't bear the pain.

At the end of the game she could have opened a rift and go through it herself, but she sent Geralt through it, because she trust him to bring her back. If she didn't trust him, she would just go alone to her and let him behind.

I think her behavior in the game is understandable but not okay,

If you are really understanding it, you show it in a rather strangely way. She does everything to rescue her daughter, she would have even given her own life for her. The very same applies to Geralt.

Geralt killed while searching for Ciri. Yennefer didn't.

I think her behavior in the books is definitely not okay,

Same as in the game, even more, because Geralt and Yennefer were willing to do suicide for her sake, when Emhyr asked them so. When Geralt asked her about that, she didn't hesitated for a second.

The Lady of the Lake
‘Witcher …’
‘The secret must die along with those who know it, you said so yourself. You have no other way out. There are no other solutions. If I escape from prison I’ll come for Ciri. It is the price I must pay and you know it.’
‘I know it.’
‘You can spare Yennefer’s life. She does not know the secret.’
‘She,’ Emhyr said seriously, ‘would pay any price to take my Ciri. And to avenge your death.’
‘True,’ said the witcher. ‘I almost forgot how much she loves the girl. You’re right, Duny. We cannot escape our destiny. I have a request …’
‘I’m listening.’
‘Let me say goodbye to both of them. Then I am at your disposal.’
Emhyr stood up, walked to the window and stared out the dark portal.
‘I cannot deny this. But …’
‘Do not worry; I won’t say anything to Ciri. It would hurt her severely, if I told her who you are. And I cannot hurt her.’
After a long silence, Emhyr turned from the window.
‘Maybe I do have some debt to you,’ he turned on his heel. ‘Listen to what I have to offer. Once, long ago, when people still valued truth, honour and pride, they stood behind their words and feared only shame, it would happened that a person sentenced to death could escape humiliation by being handed a dagger or razor, and stepping into a tub of warm water and opening a vein. Do you think that …’
‘Command a tub to be filled.’
‘Do you believe,’ the Emperor said quietly, ‘that the Lady Yennefer would accompany you in the tub?’
‘I’m pretty sure. But I will have to ask. She has quite a rebellious nature.’
‘I know.’

* * *

Yennefer agreed without hesitation.
‘Full circle,’ she said, staring speculatively at her wrist. ‘Uroboros is biting his own tail.’

I don't think she's good for Geralt,

Even Geralt himself disagrees and except for "I don't like her", you aren't really bringing up any arguments for anything else. That's your opinion, fine, we get it. Not everybody will like everything and everybody, that's just normal.

I think she's a terrible example of a modern female role model, which is to say essentially an old-fashioned man with breasts, and it saddens me a lot to see so many gamers laud her as the "true" LI for Geralt and pretend that she's the perfect woman to spend ones' life with when I feel pretty confident saying that most would hate to actually meet her in real life, to say nothing of being in a relationship with her for more than a week. Not that she would spare them so much as a glance in the first place.

Yeah, we need more hot sexy naive girls, who fall for you, just because you gave her a flower, so you can get sexy times. That seems to be the right way to handle modern female role models.

Getting sex as reward.

Also she isn't perfect, nobody will ever say she is perfect, but she is perfect for him, because both are imperfect, but as a whole they fit. They complement each other, hell, that's the very reason her character exists in the first place according to Sapkowski.

I enjoy her character for what it is and what she adds to both the books and the games and also recognize that she adores Ciri and Geralt, but I also think she's a silly, spiteful and unsociable woman who deserves pity and indifference far more than admiration. I have no problem whatsover calling her a real and absolute bitch, and I don't feel guilty or consider myself the tiniest bit sexist or prejudiced for thinking any of these things.

Thank you. :cheers:

Seriously? At this point I think you just want to put fuel into a fire you started. You don't even try to understand her or her motivations in the slightest.

Heh, I guess I struck a nerve, then. And forgive me, but this thread struck me as one meant for discussing Yennefer's character.

Your argument is she is a bitch, because she is bitch for what bitchy deeds she did.

She stopped a pogrom before it escalated, "but she is still a bitch."
She saved an unborn child from a unknown mother, "but she is still a bitch."
For the first time in life she opened her heart to someone, Geralt, and he ran away like a little boy.
and so on

People explain why she acted in this or that scene and you simply ignore that and still say she is a bitch, so what are we suppose to do now?

Neither do you like Yennefer nor even Geralt apparently, because you don't understand why he likes/loves her in the first place. How are we suppose to make her more appealing to you, if you deny her everything?

This isn't going anywhere.

the dynamic actually mirrors a separated couple passing their daughter between them, and not a family living together.

There is a reason why Ciri and Yennefer are alone at Melitele's temple, so people couldn't find Ciri. At the same time Geralt was looking for those people and finding out why they want her.

Back at Kaer Morhen he didn't invite Yennefer, because she was still pissed about him. He could have invited her though, but then he had to deal with his feelings about her, so he postponed it to later, to Gors Velen. Geralt and Yennefer could have this talk already at Kaer Morhen, if Geralt invited her, because Yennefer never visit Kaer Morhen without being invited before, because she wasn't rude or intrusive.

Blood of Elves
“I’ve noticed.” He grimaced and rubbed his aching shoulder. “And that is precisely why I believe Geralt should be warned. You are the only one who knows where to look for him. You know the way. I guess you used to be… a guest there…?”
Yennefer turned away. Dandilion saw her lips pinch, the muscles in her cheek quiver.
“Yes, in the past,” she said and there was something elusive and strange in her voice. “I used to be a guest there, sometimes. But never uninvited.”

When all three were at Thanedd, this was suppose to change after all. Ciri was going to school (Aretuza), while Yennefer stays at Thanedd and Geralt was suppose to stay as well, but he would have probably left after a couple of months again, because who cares about responsibilities, oh, Yennefer does. Ciri didn't like it, because she was suppose to stay at Aretuza and not with both of them together, she simply didn't understand the concept of a boarding school.

although I didn't read Yen's surge of affection and emotional instability after months of torture and isolation and several near-death experiences as particularly indicative of her and Geralt suddenly being set for an eternity of bliss together, the way some obviously have.

The months she spent in Vilgafortz' prison was suppose to show that she won't betray her loved ones. That's a huge difference to the character she was before meeting Geralt. Back then she would have just betray them, because why not? Why suffer for someone else? But she did bear the pain and torture through the months, because it was for the ones she loved.

But hey, what a bitchy move.

 

[Thomas999]

I don't think they're supposed to be a "traditional family", but I don't view them as a 'seperated' couple who "passes their daughter between themselves". You can personally view it that way if you want and if it suits your ending in the games, but canon wise Yennefer met Ciri when she was seperated from Geralt. Going along with the themes of the book Ciri served as 'something more' for Geralt and Yennefer. Only after Ciri runs away do they reoncile--they never break off their relationship, it's only the 'circumstances' of the Thanned coup that seperates them. One aspect of the game that I was really dissapointed in was CDPR's portrayl of the relationship among Ciri, Geralt, and Yennefer. Whether or not it was due to certain romance choices, it's an aspect that was clearly lacking in the game.

Surge of affection? Emotional instability? She was always loving towards Geralt and Ciri following Blood of Elves. If you're trying to insinuate that Sapkowski intended Yennefer's 'surge of affection' to be a by product of the torture then I think you're downplaying her relationship among the other two. Yennefer always viewed Ciri as her daughter after they bonded at the Temple of Melitele. Geralt and Yennefer did have a 'happy' ending as presented in the books

Mhm, that sort of thing isn't easy to portray in an action game compared to prose though, and even then I just don't think they'd fall back into those patters so quickly after reuniting. They've barely seen each other since Ciri was adolescent, for one thing. Even stable, functioning traditional families need transition periods to figure the new dynamics out when one member has been gone for a while, and this goes way beyond that. Especially with everything else going on.

And I'm not saying that Yennefer's feelings for Geralt is the direct result of torture or anything, just that under the circumstances I didn't read it and go "Oh, I guess those two are set for perfect marital bliss forever after. Good for them." because, well, that isn't actually a thing, and I've personally never had a girlfriend for whom I didn't occasionally have feelings along the lines of "screw everything else, we're together and that's what matters". And guess what? No eternity of bliss.

The author of this excerpt didn't reveal her ideas about love, but analysed what's in the books, and witcher is some kind of modern fairy tale, so I think that this interpretation "Sapkowski - the creator of Anti - Tale - at the end of the story about the witcher, returns to the constitutive truth of classic fairy tales: love conquers all evil." is pretty much legit.

Ah, but "love conquers all" isn't the only constitutive truth of classic fairy tales. "The world is an unfair place full of irony, and being love's fool and making reckless decisions will likely leave you dead or trapped in misery" is another, rather more classic moral, and between the two of them I'm pretty sure the latter applies more aptly to the Witcher, and specifically to Geralt and Yennefer. I also think reading "consolidated transformations" in a character's biological clock and manifested ability to care for two other people in the world and then calling it an example of love conquering all is pretty telling of the author's personal ideas, thank you very much.

 

[Samiel27]

Mhm, that sort of thing isn't easy to portray in an action game compared to prose though, and even then I just don't think they'd fall back into those patters so quickly after reuniting. They've barely seen each other since Ciri was adolescent, for one thing. Even stable, functioning traditional families need transition periods to figure the new dynamics out when one member has been gone for a while, and this goes way beyond that. Especially with everything else going on.

And I'm not saying that Yennefer's feelings for Geralt is the direct result of torture or anything, just that under the circumstances I didn't read it and go "Oh, I guess those two are set for perfect marital bliss forever after. Good for them." because, well, that isn't actually a thing, and I've personally never had a girlfriend for whom I didn't occasionally have feelings along the lines of "screw everything else, we're together and that's what matters". And guess what? No eternity of bliss.

It was pretty easy of CDPR to portray Ciri's relationship with Vesemir who she wasn't even that close to. Like I said before I am dissapointed in the developers downplaying Ciri's relationship with Geralt and Yennefer. It's one of the most important aspect of the books which they clearly left out. Is it most likely because of romance choices in the game? Most likely, but we'll never really know. It's just one of the grievances along with many others such as simplyfing Avallac'h and Eredin that I have.

 

[toudis815]

The world is an unfair place full of irony, and being love's fool and making reckless decisions will likely leave you dead or trapped in misery" is another, rather more classic moral

What kind of tales have you been reading as a kid?

 

[Thomas999]

So Triss is hotter, I see, great argument, especially if we are talking about character traits.
Because?
Her whole life she never was dependent on someone else, to not let people into her life, that was one of her weakness, even though she thought that was to make her strong. To not trust others and only trust herself. That changed with Geralt and Ciri, she changed for the better.
We also see that in the game. She tells him several times to come back safely, because she doesn't want to lose him again, she wouldn't bear the pain.
At the end of the game she could have opened a rift and go through it herself, but she sent Geralt through it, because she trust him to bring her back. If she didn't trust him, she would just go alone to her and let him behind.
If you are really understanding it, you show it in a rather strangely way. She does everything to rescue her daughter, she would have even given her own life for her. The very same applies to Geralt.
Geralt killed while searching for Ciri. Yennefer didn't.
Same as in the game, even more, because Geralt and Yennefer were willing to do suicide for her sake, when Emhyr asked them so. When Geralt asked her about that, she didn't hesitated for a second.
Even Geralt himself disagrees and except for "I don't like her", you aren't really bringing up any arguments for anything else. That's your opinion, fine, we get it. Not everybody will like everything and everybody, that's just normal.
Yeah, we need more hot sexy naive girls, who fall for you, just because you gave her a flower, so you can get sexy times. That seems to be the right way to handle modern female role models.
Getting sex as reward.
Also she isn't perfect, nobody will ever say she is perfect, but she is perfect for him, because both are imperfect, but as a whole they fit. They complement each other, hell, that's the very reason her character exists in the first place according to Sapkowski.
Seriously? At this point I think you just want to put fuel into a fire you started. You don't even try to understand her or her motivations in the slightest.
Your argument is she is a bitch, because she is bitch for what bitchy deeds she did.
She stopped a pogrom before it escalated, "but she is still a bitch."
She saved an unborn child from a unknown mother, "but she is still a bitch."
For the first time in life she opened her heart to someone, Geralt, and he ran away like a little boy.
and so on
People explain why she acted in this or that scene and you simply ignore that and still say she is a bitch, so what are we suppose to do now?
Neither do you like Yennefer nor even Geralt apparently, because you don't understand why he likes/loves her in the first place. How are we suppose to make her more appealing to you, if you deny her everything?
This isn't going anywhere.
There is a reason why Ciri and Yennefer are alone at Melitele's temple, so people couldn't find Ciri. At the same time Geralt was looking for those people and finding out why they want her.
Back at Kaer Morhen he didn't invite Yennefer, because she was still pissed about him. He could have invited her though, but then he had to deal with his feelings about her, so he postponed it to later, to Gors Velen. Geralt and Yennefer could have this talk already at Kaer Morhen, if Geralt invited her, because Yennefer never visit Kaer Morhen without being invited before, because she wasn't rude or intrusive.
When all three were at Thanedd, this was suppose to change after all. Ciri was going to school (Aretuza), while Yennefer stays at Thanedd and Geralt was suppose to stay as well, but he would have probably left after a couple of months again, because who cares about responsibilities, oh, Yennefer does. Ciri didn't like it, because she was suppose to stay at Aretuza and not with both of them together, she simply didn't understand the concept of a boarding school.
The months she spent in Vilgafortz' prison was suppose to show that she won't betray her loved ones. That's a huge difference to the character she was before meeting Geralt. Back then she would have just betray them, because why not? Why suffer for someone else? But she did bear the pain and torture through the months, because it was for the ones she loved.
But hey, what a bitchy move.

I mentioned not thinking Yen prettier than Triss because, surprisingly, "Well, Triss is pretty but Yennefer is GORGEOUS" is used as a common argument for her being the obvious and natural LI for Geralt, and I disagree with that. And she isn't "strong and independent", she's emotionally fragile, passive-aggressive, bitter and entirely dependent on people cow-towing to her while she treats them like dirt to make herself feel better.

The naive maidens thing is your own little strawman, I said nothing of the sort, and the idea that simply not being horrible to people is the same as throwing yourself at the first person to give you a flower is beyond ridiculous and pathetic. If I was a woman I'd even feel pretty insulted at your suggestion that they're incapable of any level of moderation whatsoever between those two extremes. You've essentially taken actual female agency, accountability and intelligence as concepts and thrown them right out the window in order to pretend that Yennefer's behavior is somehow the only alternative to sucking the dick of anyone who asks for it.

I'm not ignoring anything, I've read the books and feel like I understand her motivations pretty thoroughly, and I definitely respect them. I just don't mind pointing out that she's also something of a bitch. You're the one ignoring that in favor her occasional demonstrations of virtue and being physically capable of love. It's not my problem that you can't stand someone pointing out her flaws. Well, you'll have to forgive me for holding your favorite character up to the standard of 'doesn't treat others in general like shit just for the heck of it' and finding her wanting in that regard. As I understand it, others in this thread have the "she's such a loving mother, and so brave, and she and Geralt are such a romantic couple!" angles of her character pretty well covered already, so why would I feel the need to hammer on that? The fact that she's a bitch didn't seem to get much mention though.

What kind of tales have you been reading as a kid?

Fairy tales. You know, H.C. Andersen, the Grimm brothers. Look up the actual stories if you like, then tell me again that "love conquers all" isn't a pretty damn biased summation. Then look up the actual Arthurian legends, which have similar themes and are also an inspiration for the Witcher, and tell me the same about them. Then look up however much original Polish mythology you can find. Then look around you at the people you know. Then look at all the people you don't know so well. Then look at yourself and your own history and your own feelings about others. Then tell me, again, that 'love conquers all' is totally reflected in both literature and mythology and in fact has some basis in truth that makes it even the slightest bit valid for comparison to a complex fictional person's emotional arcs over several years.

 

[Gilthoniel]

I posted it also on Prime 1 statue topic but I think it deserves to be seen here too. Prime 1 will release soon Yennefer statue soon - it will be pretty expensive. Anyway I think it is really nice one

 

[toudis815]

Fairy tales. You know, H.C. Andersen, the Grimm brothers. Look up the actual stories if you like, then tell me again that "love conquers all" isn't a pretty damn biased summation. Then look up the actual Arthurian legends, which have similar themes and are also an inspiration for the Witcher, and tell me the same about them. Then look up however much original Polish mythology you can find. Then look around you at the people you know. Then look at all the people you don't know so well. Then look at yourself and your own history and your own feelings about others. Then tell me, again, that 'love conquers all' is totally reflected in both literature and mythology and in fact has some basis in truth that makes it even the slightest bit valid for comparison to a complex fictional person's emotional arcs over several years.

Well to be honest, I'm not into treading my childhood fairy tales at this moment, but as far as I remember they were about love and happy endings, and good guys have been winning. Polish mythology (I wouldn't say that sth like that even exists, more like Slavic mythology) as any other mythology contains myths. not tales - there's a difference. About looking at myself or people around me - I don't see any reason to fo that, because we are not at group theraphy, and as far as I understand, we don't talk about how me, or you feel about love in personal lives, but about tales (witcher tale to be more precise).

 

[Thomas999]

Well to be honest, I'm not into treading my childhood fairy tales at this moment, but as far as I remember they were about love and happy endings, and good guys have been winning. Polish mythology (I wouldn't say that sth like that even exists, more like Slavic mythology) as any other mythology contains myths. not tales - there's a difference. About looking at myself or people around me - I don't see any reason to fo that, because we are not at group theraphy, and as far as I understand, we don't talk about how me, or you feel about love in personal lives, but about tales (witcher tale to be more precise).

Well, that's very cute. When I grew up, the Big Bad Wolf ate both grandma and Little Red Riding Hood and both were thoroughly dead when the hunter cut them out of its stomach, and the Little Mermaid was abandoned by her prince and spent the rest of her life voiceless and walking as if on knives, or was transformed into a heartbroken sea sprite and pitied by her sisters for eternity. Good luck finding a fairy tale that didn't start out as a cautionary tale about not being a fool, taking things for granted or letting your heart lead you astray. The romanticized feel-good Disney specials about love trumping good sense aren't quite as relatable to the actual human condition.

 

[Sephira]

Meh, I don't really like Yennefer. I don't think she's prettier than Triss, I don't think she's "a strong, independent woman", I think her behavior in the game is understandable but not okay, I think her behavior in the books is definitely not okay, I don't think she's good for Geralt, I don't think Geralt is good for her and I think the two of them being bound to each other for decades because of an impulsive decision is a tragedy, and written as such.

I think she's a terrible example of a modern female role model, which is to say essentially an old-fashioned man with breasts, and it saddens me a lot to see so many gamers laud her as the "true" LI for Geralt and pretend that she's the perfect woman to spend ones' life with when I feel pretty confident saying that most would hate to actually meet her in real life, to say nothing of being in a relationship with her for more than a week. Not that she would spare them so much as a glance in the first place.

I enjoy her character for what it is and what she adds to both the books and the games and also recognize that she adores Ciri and Geralt, but I also think she's a silly, spiteful and unsociable woman who deserves pity and indifference far more than admiration. I have no problem whatsover calling her a real and absolute bitch, and I don't feel guilty or consider myself the tiniest bit sexist or prejudiced for thinking any of these things.

Thank you. :cheers:

You're welcome. :cheers:

I think it's silly to not discern a story from RL decisions, and as story character Yennefer, from a love interest point of view, is pretty much one of the few women who can "sustain" Geralt, maybe my choice of words is poor but I hope that I'm clear on that. Alas, the fact of her being silly, spiteful and unsociable woman who deserves pity and indifference far more than admiration, is pretty much clear in the first book I think, but that always come to the same point: she knows that. And her evolution, even if the smut attitude is one of her traits, is one of the main themes in the books. Hell, I might say that for a series based mainly of character development it's perfectly normal.

On the other hand, it would be also silly not to recognize how the character actually receive that indifference even if she may do some good, without others not even realizing. (and I'm not talking about trifles but really good deeds, I can point out some examples). The fact she is/was socially unable doesn't mean she was for all the things. If you read the books you know what I mean. So generalizing isn't really the good way to talk about the character development.

And yes, she has a stern/bitchy flavoured attitude, denying it would be a literary sin. I don't think the author's goal was admiring her character since the first time but, by progressing throught the story and development, understanding (and this is for almost every character) at the end what brought that behaviour, that attitude. And how, starting from both of them being absolutely negative to each other, putting aside pride and silly behaviours can really mend broken relationships.

There's so much to talk about that pointing out few things and not mentioning others is really a pity, other than dismissing the author's work.

Oh I forgot...

I don't think she's prettier than Triss

Lmao, just don't ruin this good start and don't bring this "argument" up. It's really why healthy discussion fail to have place. It hasn't anything to do with the main discussion, just a poor trigger. It's.. uh... silly... but I wrote that word many times already.

I'm sure I forgot other things for the time being but maybe I will recall them.