Yennefer of Vengerberg (all spoilers)

[Guest 3842753]

I don't think that this is an issue after all. I mean, if people don't want to be with Triss and think that a Geralt that is true to book-lore should be with Yen will never experience that line no matter what. It's not like this line changes anything for Yen fans, just for Triss fans, and those people are usually pretty open to "differing" lore.

But then again I think that this is only mediocre to bad writing on CDPR's side. They are imo better than that.

Agreed. I'm really glad Triss is getting more dialogue in the game. I'm also glad CDPR cares about their game enough that they continue to add stuff like this.

The issue is the average to below-average quality of CDPR's writing which is often inconsistent with what was already established earlier in this game, in W1/2, in the books, or all of the above. Whether it's poorly worded dialogue, inconsistent characterizations, or flat out contradictions, it all leaves a sour taste.

There is no reason the added dialogue line around amnesia needs to contradict the books in the manner it does. That's just crude, lazy writing. Again, I'm surprised that professional writers who supposedly know the books better than us and who probably read them in their original language produced these lines of dialogue.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

If they throw around stuff like Geralt always loving Triss while never loving Yen (clearly implied, along with Last Wish) they might as well plant a 200 meters tall pink dildo in the middle of Velen, since nothing really matters.

Well, that's wrong imo. The basic working principle of an RPG is choice. You can choose to go with Yen and no lore in terms of romance will be broken. If you go with Triss you willingly and voluntarily break the lore because you want to do so and enjoy a differing story. I don't see the big issue with that, especially not for fans of Yen (like myself).

But in the end, it's still bad writing. I don't question that.

 

[keldrath]

I don't know which books you read but I'd like to challenge that. Imo the Ciri + White Frost were much bigger themes in the pentalogy than the relationship between Geralt and Yennefer.. I'd like to remember you that the books are not just the short stories...

All of them except Season of Storms. White frost for instance, was never much of a theme, it was a background thing going on that wasn't relevant to their time period. It was a distant future threat 3000 years off. It wasn't so much a theme as a primary motivation for "some" of the antagonists to be pursuing Ciri. Most of the books seemed to be more themed around Geralt and Yennefers relationship, and them trying to rescue Ciri from her pursuers and reunite as a family and growing as characters during that time.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

All of them except Season of Storms. White frost for instance, was never much of a theme, it was a background thing going on that wasn't relevant to their time period. It was a distant future threat 3000 years off. It wasn't so much a theme as a primary motivation for "some" of the antagonists to be pursuing Ciri. Most of the books seemed to be more themed around Geralt and Yennefers relationship, and them trying to rescue Ciri from her pursuers and reunite as a family and growing as characters during that time.

The White Frost is crucial to understand the narrative of the pentalogy imo (notas an entity but as a symbol). How is being the "primary motivation" a minor theme in any work of fiction? That's like saying that the fight between the good and evil force in Star Wars was just a minor thing. It's clearly not. And yes, family is an topic in the pentalogy, but family is more than the relationship between Yen and Geralt. Actually, the relationships of both to Ciri were more important than that imo. So I disagree very much with your assessment that the pentalogy seemed to be more themed around their relationship. I think the opposite is true. Their relationship is a minor topic in it. It's more about each character getting to terms with themselves and their inner conflicts. Sure, the relationship between Geralt and Yen is part of their respective internal conflict but only part of it. There are other important issues as well and Ciri has to go through a completely different hero's journey that has major impact on the narrative of the pentalogy. I'd say from all three main heores in the pentalogy she's the most important one for the tale (although all three of them have their fair share of it). Saying that the White Frost and Ciri were only minor themes in the pentalogy while the relationship between Geralt and Yen was a big one is imo without any foundation in the books, I'm afraid.

The short stories though, that's a whole different story. Some of them are of course amost exclusively centered around their relationship.

 

[Guest 3847602]

You "break the lore" anyway the moment you dump Yen, I don't see any problem with both girls getting more content. While I agree that writing is below CDPR level, you can easily avoid it by making choices you actually like. In the end its only a game, nothing CDPR write or doesn't write have any impact on books

 

[keldrath]

The White Frost is crucial to understand the narrative of the pentalogy imo (notas an entity but as a symbol). How is being the "primary motivation" a minor theme in any work of fiction? That's like saying that the fight between the good and evil force in Star Wars was just a minor thing. It's clearly not. And yes, family is an topic in the pentalogy, but family is more than the relationship between Yen and Geralt. Actually, the relationships of both to Ciri were more important than that imo. So I disagree very much with your assessment that the pentalogy seemed to be more themed around their relationship. I think the opposite is true. Their relationship is a minor topic in it. It's more about each character getting to terms with themselves and their inner conflicts. Sure, the relationship between Geralt and Yen is part of their respective internal conflict but only part of it. There are other important issues as well and Ciri has to go through a completely different hero's journey that has major impact on the narrative of the pentalogy. I'd say from all three main heores in the pentalogy she's the most important one for the tale (although all three of them have their fair share of it). Saying that the White Frost and Ciri were only minor themes in the pentalogy while the relationship between Geralt and Yen was a big one is imo without any foundation in the books, I'm afraid.

The short stories though, that's a whole different story. Some of them are of course amost exclusively centered around their relationship.

I have to disagree about it being that major of a theme. It only really applied to two antagonists, the Aen Elle, and to a lesser extent, Emhyr. Skellen wasn't interested in it, and it had no bearing on Vilgefortz either. He wanted the power her blood could bring him, the Aen Elle wanted it to Escape their world and potentialy "save the Aen Seidhe" or so they say, and her father Emhyr wanted to father the "destroyer" who would conquer the world and prepare it. Like I said, a primary motivation for "some" of the antagonists, not even all of them. Much of the series has to do with GYC, mostly with people hunting Ciri until they all get separated on Thanedd, where for Geralt it becomes a journey to Nilfgaard to rescue her, for Yen after she is decompressed, to Try to rescue her and getting captured in the process, and for Ciri to grow as a character who's stuck on her own to fend for herself, thinking Geralt and Yen are dead. Where she goes off to fulfill her "destiny" Which is the real main driving force behind Sapkowskis work. It's his favorite plot device. Eventually it changes to where Geralt and Ciri both realize Yen is in trouble, and they drop everything to go rescue her, Ciri gets captured, Yen is Captured, and Geralt arrives, big bloody family reunion. Most of the Protagonists are driven by their love for each other and their need to protect and defend each other against a world gone mad. A world they don't care about the fate of.

The white frost is an eventuality that doesn't concern them at the time, only "some" of the antagonists as their reason for pursuing Ciri. The book doesn't really work without the romance theme to it, because everything they do during the course of the saga is for each other.

Edit: I should also add, this is another big reason why I didn't like the White frost presentation in the game. It shouldn't have even been a main theme to begin with. Never mind how drastically they changed it.

 

[Kinley]

Deleted some off-topic posts and am about to hand out some infractions/time-outs if it continues.

Good Saturday night.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

I have to disagree about it being that major of a theme. It only really applied to two antagonists, the Aen Elle, and to a lesser extent, Emhyr. Skellen wasn't interested in it, and it had no bearing on Vilgefortz either. He wanted the power her blood could bring him, the Aen Elle wanted it to Escape their world and potentialy "save the Aen Seidhe" or so they say, and her father Emhyr wanted to father the "destroyer" who would conquer the world and prepare it. Like I said, a primary motivation for "some" of the antagonists, not even all of them. Much of the series has to do with GYC, mostly with people hunting Ciri until they all get separated on Thanedd, where for Geralt it becomes a journey to Nilfgaard to rescue her, for Yen after she is decompressed, to Try to rescue her and getting captured in the process, and for Ciri to grow as a character who's stuck on her own to fend for herself, thinking Geralt and Yen are dead. Where she goes off to fulfill her "destiny" Which is the real main driving force behind Sapkowskis work. It's his favorite plot device. Eventually it changes to where Geralt and Ciri both realize Yen is in trouble, and they drop everything to go rescue her, Ciri gets captured, Yen is Captured, and Geralt arrives, big bloody family reunion. Most of the Protagonists are driven by their love for each other and their need to protect and defend each other against a world gone mad. A world they don't care about the fate of.

The white frost is an eventuality that doesn't concern them at the time, only "some" of the antagonists as their reason for pursuing Ciri. The book doesn't really work without the romance theme to it, because everything they do during the course of the saga is for each other.

Edit: I should also add, this is another big reason why I didn't like the White frost presentation in the game. It shouldn't have even been a main theme to begin with. Never mind how drastically they changed it.

You don't understand me (no offense, it's probably just because I failed to explained it in a way it's comprehensible). The power of the White Forst is its symbolism. It has no power as a "real" thing. And yes, destiny is a core concept of the pentalogy, as is the circle of life and death and rebirth (what ALL of the hero's journeys are all about in the end). The books are indeed about progress and overcoming internal obstacles, on both a pyhscial and a metaphysical level. Of course, Geralt's relationship to Yen is a part of that. But only a part. As you've said yourself, the relationship between Ciri and Geralt and Ciri and Yen is easily as important. As is the metapyhsical level of overcoming death (which is at the very heart of the narrative). Love is again at the core of it, but it goes way beyond Yen's and Geralt's relationship, if only because they're literally already dead. The pentalogy is about empowering Ciri to overcome death and to have faith in life again. Geralt and Yen are only supporters to that story. They're journey's are about overcoming their internal obstales that hinder them to support Ciri in every way they could. Yen has to overcome her lacking self-awareness and hidden self-hatred and her fear of losing her status and even her life. Geralt has to ackknowledge the power of friendship and loyalty, the superiority of love above pure lust and the value of free will in a world forged by destiny. Their struggle has only one goal: to save and empower Ciri and to give their life - that is doomed to endless decay and death - any sense in the symbolism of life being and endless circle of birth, life, death and rebirth. The White Frost's value as symbol cannot be valued to highly here imo. It's the constant reminder of both death and rebirth. It's the fuel that drives not only the main villains, far from it. It's true that characters like Emhyr or the Aen Elle take the threat of the White Frost literally but that's just one layer it works upon. On a more in-depth layer it gives reason to every being in this world. Without death there is no value in life. Without love (both pyhsically and mentally) there is no life itself (that's why Yen's and Geralt's relationship IS quite important after all, just nor defining element of the pentalogy that stoods out above other things). Without motherhood there is chance to renew the circle of life and "overcoming the White Frost". That's how you defeat the White Frost on a metaphysical level. That's how Ciri both defeats and reassures the symbol of the White Frost at the end of the pentalogy. It's the basic point of the tale, Ciri breaking the cirlce of death that surrounds her and opening a door and hope for new life.

Maybe I'm just a fool but for me the White Frost and Ciri are both at the very heart of the narrative in the pentalogy. Basically everything in these books is in one way or another and on one layer or another connected to them. Every action performed by the heroes in the books is done to bring Ciri back on track and to making her realize the power of life itself, with the White Frost being its always warning and demanding symbol.

 

[iNeSiNhA]

I think the point is not the added content, but how the lines are disrespectful to the books and /or Yen. Geralt acts nice to Triss even if you broke her heart. But if you choose Triss, the new lines feels like "thank the gods i get rid of Yen", like she never meant anything to him.

The "I'm better now" and the justify that he gives Ciri why he choose Triss ("stormy relationship") are quite lame, the guy has been in a romance with Yen trough 20 years... It seems that he does not care about it at all, and that was quite annoying since The Last Wish quest, like he spent all this time with her just because of the Djinn (and the Yen fans were really ok with it). When you break Triss heart, the situation is really soft and respectful.

In other words, Triss is treated really nice by the devs/Geralt and Yennefer don't. I bet that Triss fans would not like if the devs added some quotes like "Yeah, i'm better than fine with Yen", "Triss, you should not have lied and hidden things to me, got what you deserved" or "Yeah, i'm finally together with the love of my life (in response to Triss)".

 

[Trireme]

The pentalogy is about empowering Ciri to overcome death and to have faith in life again. Geralt and Yen are only supporters to that story.

When Geralt is healing in Brokilon he says this to Dandelion:

"I can't leave her to her fate. She's completely alone.... If she remains alone, the same thing will happen to her as once happened to me."

Now it's hard to say exactly what Geralt means, but I believe he is talking about Sodden in Sword of Destiny when he believed that Yen was dead along with so many of the mages he knew. Geralt essentially lost all hope and asked Death to take him, but she said it was not yet time. Later he found Ciri and she gave him a reason to live and be hopeful again.

Sorry, only tangentially related to Yen.

 

[keldrath]

You don't understand me (no offense, it's probably just because I failed to explained it in a way it's comprehensible). The power of the White Forst is its symbolism. It has no power as a "real" thing. And yes, destiny is a core concept of the pentalogy, as is the circle of life and death and rebirth (what ALL of the hero's journeys are all about in the end). The books are indeed about progress and overcoming internal obstacles, on both a pyhscial and a metaphysical level. Of course, Geralt's relationship to Yen is a part of that. But only a part. As you've said yourself, the relationship between Ciri and Geralt and Ciri and Yen is easily as important. As is the metapyhsical level of overcoming death (which is at the very heart of the narrative). Love is again at the core of it, but it goes way beyond Yen's and Geralt's relationship, if only because they're literally already dead. The pentalogy is about empowering Ciri to overcome death and to have faith in life again. Geralt and Yen are only supporters to that story. They're journey's are about overcoming their internal obstales that hinder them to support Ciri in every way they could. Yen has to overcome her lacking self-awareness and hidden self-hatred and her fear of losing her status and even her life. Geralt has to ackknowledge the power of friendship and loyalty, the superiority of love above pure lust and the value of free will in a world forged by destiny. Their struggle has only one goal: to save and empower Ciri and to give their life - that is doomed to endless decay and death - any sense in the symbolism of life being and endless circle of birth, life, death and rebirth. The White Frost's value as symbol cannot be valued to highly here imo. It's the constant reminder of both death and rebirth. It's the fuel that drives not only the main villains, far from it. It's true that characters like Emhyr or the Aen Elle take the threat of the White Frost literally but that's just one layer it works upon. On a more in-depth layer it gives reason to every being in this world. Without death there is no value in life. Without love (both pyhsically and mentally) there is no life itself (that's why Yen's and Geralt's relationship IS quite important after all, just nor defining element of the pentalogy that stoods out above other things). Without motherhood there is chance to renew the circle of life and "overcoming the White Frost". That's how you defeat the White Frost on a metaphysical level. That's how Ciri both defeats and reassures the symbol of the White Frost at the end of the pentalogy. It's the basic point of the tale, Ciri breaking the cirlce of death that surrounds her and opening a door and hope for new life.

Maybe I'm just a fool but for me the White Frost and Ciri are both at the very heart of the narrative in the pentalogy. Basically everything in these books is in one way or another and on one layer or another connected to them. Every action performed by the heroes in the books is done to bring Ciri back on track and to making her realize the power of life itself, with the White Frost being its always warning and demanding symbol.

Interesting take on it. I hadn't really thought about the White Frost as symbolism so much. So thanks for giving me something to think about.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

I think the point is not the added content, but how the lines are disrespectful to the books and /or Yen. Geralt acts nice to Triss even if you broke her heart. But if you choose Triss, the new lines feels like "thank the gods i get rid of Yen", like she never meant anything to him.

The "I'm better now" and the justify that he gives Ciri why he choose Triss ("stormy relationship") are quite lame, the guy has been in a romance with Yen trough 20 years... It seems that he does not care about it at all, and that was quite annoying since The Last Wish quest, like he spent all this time with her just because of the Djinn (and the Yen fans were really ok with it). When you break Triss heart, the situation is really soft and respectful.

Well, for what it's worth that's pretty much along the lines of how Geralt breaks up with Yen in the Last Wish quest if he romances Triss. So it's hardly a new element but a continuation of stuff that was already there. It was pretty clear to me that they won't ever change the Last Wish scene in the first place so why complaining now? It's not like this is anything new. In the end, it's fan-fiction done by CDPR like I've said from the beginning. Nothing has changed related to that imo.

In other words, Triss is treated really nice by the devs/Geralt and Yennefer don't. I bet that Triss fans would not like if the devs added some quotes like "Yeah, i'm better than fine with Yen", "Triss, you should not have lied and hidden things to me, got what you deserved" or "Yeah, i'm finally together with the love of my life (in response to Triss)".

Well, while Triss is "treated nice" the writing for her is even worse than the one for Yen imo. The point of Geralt's relationship with Yen was never about "being nice" in the first place so it's nothing wrong to show that none of them is without flaws. Triss intead, she's a much more one-dimensional character in comparison and I don't think that makes her the better written character. It makes her actually worse and the new don't make the whole issue better. It's more of that cringeworthy Bioware romance writing of new. Not a big favor for Triss as a supposed complex character and Geralt's relationship to her being envisioned to be a vialbe and attractive alternative...

 

[Avin]

While Triss is written like some flawless Disney Princess, Yennefer is closer to a real woman.

I mean, breaking a bed is something that one or two ex-girlfriends of mine would do on PMS...

That's why I agree that Yen is far better written.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

When Geralt is healing in Brokilon he says this to Dandelion:

"I can't leave her to her fate. She's completely alone.... If she remains alone, the same thing will happen to her as once happened to me."

Now it's hard to say exactly what Geralt means, but I believe he is talking about Sodden in Sword of Destiny when he believed that Yen was dead along with so many of the mages he knew. Geralt essentially lost all hope and asked Death to take him, but she said it was not yet time. Later he found Ciri and she gave him a reason to live and be hopeful again.

Sorry, only tangentially related to Yen.

I agree very much. Much of Ciri's early tale is about her losing all hope and basically becoming the symbol of pure death herself (killer for fun and greed, lesbian (yes), believing that death follows her whereever she goes, being pretty much the slave of the personification of evil itself). Much of Ciri's later tale is about her struggle to overcome that, both mentally and physically. How close she must have been to complete madness after all she has gotten through. But she managed to survive and healthy (to an arguable extend) and to even grow as a person while doing so. Geralt and Yen helped her during that progression, finally enabling her to see the value of humanity, of life, again.

It's indeed hard to interpret what Geralt meant exactly with that line. I would interpret it in two ways. First - like you said - it's perhaps about Geralt losing hope in the the ones he love and therefore sacrificing the basic principle of life. But second, it's perhaps also about him being a symbol of death and decay himself, being infertile, but basically immortal, doomed to fight against the horrors of the world without ever being able to find salvation until death finally gets him. For Geralt, both Yen and Ciri changed the basic prospect of life. And by finding both and helping both he fulfilled his destiny and broke the cirlce of death and decay. For Yen, there are pretty similar points to be observed. She suffers from the same symptoms, being doomed to a basically endless life, always knowing that death is everything that awaits her at the end.

So the love between Geralt and Yen is indeed crucial for the books, especially as a starting point for their respective journeys. It's the "basic conflict" of their personal struggle that finds it possible salvation in the person of Ciri. If they can empower her to accept life itself again and the gift she has they can finally give reason to not only their relationship but to the their sense of life itself. That's why I said that the pentalogy is at the very core about empowering Ciri to overcome death and to have faith in life again. Maybe the "only supporters" addition was a bit misleading. Of course both Yen and Geralt are crucial to the story as is their relationship. The pentalogy dosn't work without that premise. But both the starting point and the ending point of the pentalogy is Ciri.

 

[Guest 3842753]

Well, for what it's worth that's pretty much along the lines of how Geralt breaks up with Yen in the Last Wish quest if he romances Triss. So it's hardly a new element but a continuation of stuff that was already there. It was pretty clear to me that they won't ever change the Last Wish scene in the first place so why complaining now? It's not like this is anything new. In the end, it's fan-fiction done by CDPR like I've said from the beginning. Nothing has changed related to that imo.


Well, while Triss is "treated nice" the writing for her is even worse than the one for Yen imo. The point of Geralt's relationship with Yen was never about "being nice" in the first place so it's nothing wrong to show that none of them is without flaws. Triss intead, she's a much more one-dimensional character in comparison and I don't think that makes her the better written character. It makes her actually worse and the new don't make the whole issue better. It's more of that cringeworthy Bioware romance writing of new. Not a big favor for Triss as a supposed complex character and Geralt's relationship to her being envisioned to be a vialbe and attractive alternative...

Game Triss is essentially CDPR's creation. If they intended her to be anything more than the basis of a generic Disney/Bioware romance, they failed in that regard. Which is too bad because Triss showed potential in W2 for being more than a one dimensional character who exists solely as the 'sweet girl' alternative to Yen.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Game Triss is essentially CDPR's creation. If they intended her to be anything more than the basis of a generic Disney/Bioware romance, they failed in that regard. Which is too bad because Triss showed potential in W2 for being more than a one dimensional character who exists solely as the 'sweet girl' alternative to Yen.

I agree. That's what I said from the start. Triss is underdeveloped in TW3 which is actually pretty sad because CDPR is imo best at writing their "own" characters or at least characters that aren't t already that deeply explored in the books.

Yen is proven ground. There is nothing to add to her. No creativity needed to let her shine. It's basically the Yen we know from the books and there isn't much CDPR could have done to change that - and they weren't suppposed to do so either. Makes it even sadder that they just wasted huge parts of the potential they'd built up for Triss in terms of creative storytelling in TW2...

 

[FarrySquall]

Whoa, too many bashing Triss and favor Yen here

You know, we have a topic for that http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...nnefer-NOW-WITH-SPOILERS-Oh-well?goto=newpost

This one is about Yen only, honestly

 

[Avin]

Whoa, too many bashing Triss and favor Yen here

You know, we have a topic for that http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...nnefer-NOW-WITH-SPOILERS-Oh-well?goto=newpost

This one is about Yen only, honestly

Is there a The Witcher 3: Merigold Edition thread already?

Calling Merigold a Disney Princess counts as bashing? My Elder daughter disagrees!

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Whoa, too many bashing Triss and favor Yen here

You know, we have a topic for that http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...nnefer-NOW-WITH-SPOILERS-Oh-well?goto=newpost

This one is about Yen only, honestly

I don't see any Triss bashing here actually. If you talk about me, I'm just complaining about CDPR's writing in general which includes both Yen and Triss.

 

[elcaettivo]

Who the hell is Triss whore Merigold ?The original Geralt of Rivia loves only Yennefer of Vengerberg.