"You fire your gun at a human enemy 10 levels higher than you - headshot."

[kofeiiniturpa]

No you are right. Player substitution nulls character skill. And an RPG should be about the character (the role) and his aptitude so the players are all on the same line when it comes to the characters aptitude being measured and tested. The PC might be a clumsy dimwit, even if the player would be an athlete with IQ of 170; or the PC might be the bastard child of Stephen Hawking and James Bond while the player is a uneducated mess with no limbs -- and in both cases, the game plays fairly and unbiased.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

No you are right. Player substitution nulls character skill. And an RPG should be about the character (the role) and his aptitude so the players are all on the same line when it comes to the characters aptitude being measured and tested. The PC might be a clumsy dimwit, even if the player would be an athlete with IQ of 170; or the PC might be the bastard child of Stephen Hawking and James Bond while the player is a uneducated mess with no limbs -- and in both cases, the game plays fairly and unbiased.

Ah, the logic twists! So the people who whine about missing an aliens head from point blank being unfair will find that the percentages are the fairest way to get the job done! beautiful

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Ah, the logic twists! So the people who whine about missing an aliens head from point blank being unfair will find that the percentages are the fairest way to get the job done! beautiful

That's how it is. It's not "them" who's doing the task, it's the character at their prompt. It's fair to all as everyone starts at the same line (and before it's brought up, no, different players having different understandings on how the game plays is not a factor here, the game plays according the same rules for everyone, it's the people who differ and the game is blameless of that).

 

[Suhiira]

It's fair to all as everyone starts at the same line <clip>

What?
A level playing field where some players reflexes/better internet connection/$500 mouse-controller/months of practice at FPS games isn't a factor?
Is that allowed?

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

What? A level playing field where some players reflexes/better internet connection/$500 mouse-controller/months of practice at FPS games isn't a factor? Is that allowed?

 

[joaopinga]

You guys are missing the point about the 65% chance to hit at point blank. If your weapon's barrel is touching someone's head in real life and you pull the trigger, it will hit. Always. If the shot misses, it's because something happened, like maybe the target moved. In XCOM, the bullet magically disappears in mid air. There's no feedback on what happened, and worse, what could I as a player do to improve.

People mentioned Dark Souls. Why is DS combat so praised? Feedback. Every single hit I take happens for a reason, and the game communicates that to you. You know exactly what happened.

Now imagine this: you are doing a mission to rescue someone. That person has a gun pointed at is head. You are running out of time, and you didn't pass some RNG speech check. Then you go for a shot, only to miss, because RNG. The quest fails, not because you made a mistake, but because RNGesus decided so. This is not fine.

I expect a game like Cyberpunk to be immersive. So yea, I have a problem with missing a point blank shot, unless the game communicates the reason to me.

 

[Guest 4149880]

You guys are missing the point about the 65% chance to hit at point blank. If your weapon's barrel is touching someone's head in real life and you pull the trigger, it will hit. Always. If the shot misses, it's because something happened, like maybe the target moved. In XCOM, the bullet magically disappears in mid air. There's no feedback on what happened, and worse, what could I as a player do to improve.

People mentioned Dark Souls. Why is DS combat so praised? Feedback. Every single hit I take happens for a reason, and the game communicates that to you. You know exactly what happened.

Now imagine this: you are doing a mission to rescue someone. That person has a gun pointed at is head. You are running out of time, and you didn't pass some RNG speech check. Then you go for a shot, only to miss, because RNG. The quest fails, not because you made a mistake, but because RNGesus decided so. This is not fine.

I expect a game like Cyberpunk to be immersive. So yea, I have a problem with missing a point blank shot, unless the game communicates the reason to me.

Dark Souls praise is well disserved. The hit boxes are made up of the actual shape of your character, body, legs, arms and head, not just the over all height, width and depth as a whole, but the empty spaces around the characters limbs, that's why when you get shot at with an arrow and it actually misses because it went in between the arm and torso. Its complete in game physics, not a calculated system based on numbers. Cyberpunk should work the same in my opinion.

 

[Suhiira]

You guys are missing the point about the 65% chance to hit at point blank. If your weapon's barrel is touching someone's head in real life and you pull the trigger, it will hit. Always.

First off, only an idiot gets closer then 3-5m to their target, even with a handgun. Because closer then that the person might take it away from you or move/drop as you pull the trigger and you'll miss.
Look at some real world data on police shootings, you'll see an amazing rate of misses at VERY short ranges.

In the case of an execution style shooting, 5cm from a motionless target, ... yes ... barring a weapon/ammo malfunction you should hit.

 

[0248991]

Hi,
I think that headshot could be understood as "clear way" of killing enemy, but would be hard to hit/ pull of.
In cyberpunk I imagine that you have some medium range pistols, from which usual target dies in 1 - 6 hits, depending on body strength, armor, etc...;
and some long sniper gun, that has limited ammo count, but can be used to do those sneaky instant kills over long distance.

Of course you could do headshot with medium range gun, but in overall it would be risky, as player would need to get out of cover, run to enemy cover and than shot him to head.
Something like; usually enemies won't stand 1v1 pressing left button to kill everything, but would move, shot, cover, etc...; so it would be hard to head shot them.

I am kinda curious, how cdpr manages to do guns.
Shit gets real if you exchange swords over to guns
But of course its story what drives rpgs, everything else is on second place - combat can be only as much real as story is.

 

[Draymar23]

I find Leveling to be so restricting especially since NPC levels are usually tied to a specific location. However since the 2020 PnP game is skill based I don't think it will be much of a problem

 

[Suhiira]

I find Leveling to be so restricting especially since NPC levels are usually tied to a specific location. However since the 2020 PnP game is skill based I don't think it will be much of a problem

Sure it will.
Corps and Beavers aren't going to be seen in the Combat Zone, and street gangs will rarely be seen outside their territory.

 

[ravaa124]

I see this depends on how the level up system will work.
Do you just "ding" and get + stats automatically like a classic cliche rpg, or do you need to do something that makes sense before you gain higher stats?

What I'd like to see in a rpg is gear being much more important for defining hp, instead of being heavily focused on having my character itself transcend into the ultimate being by default.
More like things are in real life - you can get much stronger than others, much faster, more skills etc.. but you cant teach yourself not to have a bullet pierce your skull.

The most important part to capture the CP vibe I think is danger. So you should never feel like you are invincible no matter what low life thug you face, a certain bit of attention should always be required to get things done, and not die.

So, when you level up you dont become immune to bullets. What happens instead is that as your character progresses (level up) he will gain access to new protection gear and even being able switch out your skull bones with random metal xXx. (An option for those who don't like the idea of having your character run around with a helmet 24/7)
Maybe there could also be drugs, genetic modifications and so forth that add a certain amount of surviveability for your body too, not as much as a metal skull of course.
Perhaps some sort of end game semi protective magnetic shield of something, slowing bullets down and lowering their damage by a certain amount when activated.

Anyway the idea then is that the armor or implant makes it so that lower level weapons can't deal instantly lethal damage to you anymore. From now on only weapons on the same level or higher as your gear would kill you with a headshot.

Without all this gear it doesn't matter if you are level 100.
If you run around naked having no implants and get shot in the face with a shitty lvl one 9mm pistol relic manufactured in China, you should die or take critical damage.
But with full level 100 gear on, nothing but a magrail rifle with armor piercing explosive bullets or whatever is fancy in the future - would instantly kill me.

The damage difference between lets say a lvl 50 gun and a lvl 100 gun don't need to be that much, but one will kill me in 1 bullet and the other won't.

My answer is then:
I fire a gun at an enemy 10 levels higher than me, headshot - he dies.
Unless he also have protection gear 10 levels higher than me.
In that case, I might not even deal half of his hp in damage - depending on how hard a 1-10 lvl difference scale and how many different protective armor and abilities he have available.

 

[Suhiira]

Problem is, armor doesn't work that way in reality.
Essentially armor can:
A) Dissipate the damage (i.e. Kevlar)
B) Deflect the damage (i.e. a titanium plate)

While it would be fairly easy (assuming you had FULL body protection) to become essentially immune to low caliber low velocity rounds (i.e. 22s. 25s, 380s) once the caliber and/or velocity starts to increase you run into a sort of "inverse square" issue. It takes a LOT more armor to dissipate/deflect the damage. The average person quickly reaches the point of immobility due to the mass/bulk of the necessary armor.

And like firearms armor should follow the "rules of reality" in CP2077, no "magical" super-light-weight flexible armor.

 

[MasterFubar]

For me it would depend on a lot of factors but I also don't see why this topic is a point of contention. Games like Fallout 3 and 4 are RPGs but can be played as a FP or TP shooters and don't have one shot head shots out right. While the Division is a bad to ok example of a RPG shooter, it doesn't have one shot head shots either. Heck, in the trailer the girl gets shot in the face and the bullet basically doesn't do anything. I feel like people that just want to auto kill people are more in the mindset of CoD FPS rather than a RPG shooter. Also, even in PUBG it can take multiple head shots to kill someone if they have a helm on and thats not taking into consideration that this game will have augments. Like there could be an enemy type that downloaded their consciousness to the net so destroying the head wouldn't be as effective as say hacking the enemy or creating a zone where no net traffic can come through so the enemy falls uselessly to the floor, etc. Something to alleviate the issue of leveled or tier'd guns is to not have bullet damage but approx DPS against same level enemies. This way it could incorporate gun sway, shaky hands, lack of shooting experience, defense of the enemy, etc without having to mess with game play too much.

 

[Suhiira]

Well ...
CP2020 (the PnP RPG CP2077 is based on) tends to use a more COD type of combat system ... bullets HURT!

The "problem" is that it works both ways, what you can do to them they can do to you. This is one reason those of us familiar with CP2020 keep trying to tell folks ... Don't expect your typical "RPG" Shooter. And there's no man portable body armor in CP2020 that'll make you bulletproof (just like real life). Yes, you can get dermal plating and wear body armor over it, or go full borg, and be damn resistant ... but never bulletproof. So if CP2077 features lots of combat, and uses CP2020s combat mechanics ... expect to reload a lot.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well ...
So if CP2077 features lots of combat, and uses CP2020s combat mechanics ... expect to reload a lot.

Or be really careful!

Although video games do have a habit of dishing out a lot of often unavoidable combat or linear shoot-areas, unlike PnP or real life, which really increases fatalities.

Been trying an Ironman runthrough in Mankind Divided. Doable, but I took a break for a month or so, came back, forgot it was Ironman, stepped into a firefight, whole save lost.

So, 100% attention or else.

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

You guys are missing the point about the 65% chance to hit at point blank. If your weapon's barrel is touching someone's head in real life and you pull the trigger, it will hit. Always. If the shot misses, it's because something happened, like maybe the target moved. In XCOM, the bullet magically disappears in mid air. There's no feedback on what happened, and worse, what could I as a player do to improve.

People mentioned Dark Souls. Why is DS combat so praised? Feedback. Every single hit I take happens for a reason, and the game communicates that to you. You know exactly what happened.

Now imagine this: you are doing a mission to rescue someone. That person has a gun pointed at is head. You are running out of time, and you didn't pass some RNG speech check. Then you go for a shot, only to miss, because RNG. The quest fails, not because you made a mistake, but because RNGesus decided so. This is not fine.

I expect a game like Cyberpunk to be immersive. So yea, I have a problem with missing a point blank shot, unless the game communicates the reason to me.

Well Dark Souls gives the player 100% control over real time inputs. Who knew gamers wanted to see their skills translated into the game rather than the game doing that for you.

 

[Suhiira]

Who knew gamers wanted to see their skills translated into the game rather than the game doing that for you.

The people that created Mario?
Or Tetris?
Or ...

(( Tho your comment may have been sarcasm, hard to get the proper voice inflection across on the internet. ))

 

[Stiler]

I hope they do it like Mount and Blade. To me that is a perfect example of an action-rpg game that has stats and character progression but it does not come at the cost of the fun of combat and player skill.

There are other ways that you can have stats influence combat without affecting the actual dmg impact of hitting an npc and the damage it deals.


For example, lets say you have built your character with high dexterity. This could allow you to actually move faster in the world, it could let you reload your weapons faster, etc. Whereas someone with lower dexterity wouldn't be as quick. If you put in skills as well you can have things affected, such as how much "sway" there is to your aim as you are aiming at something (high stat = little/no sway so you can be more precise in aiming).

All of these things can have affects around combat and influence it in various ways that the player can actually see but when you actually hit someone or use something, if it hits them it does the dmg it should depending on the type of weapon used, the velocity, etc.

This is also MUCH MUCH easier for developers to "balance" around as there's no huge differences in numbers/dmg and skills that affect those, which I imagine is a huge headache when making rpgs with traditional stats/skills that influence dmg and what procs what.

 

[Suhiira]

Actually mere physical ability is a pretty minor factor in firearms use. Skill and practice with firearms, now those matter a LOT, why do you think even expert snipers are constantly honing their skills when not actually in a combat zone?