"You fire your gun at a human enemy 10 levels higher than you - headshot."

[Meccanical]

"You fire your gun at a human enemy 10 levels higher than you - headshot."

'What happens and why?"

https://twitter.com/TimePirateNinja/status/922627128830709760

Another tweet in the "Dream RPG" series by our very own ADD Krow and another interesting topic.

My answer? High number or not, his luck ran out and he got caught with a hot rock. That enemy should be fatally wounded if not dead. I feel like RPGs, especially the videogame variety, often get to caught up in numbers and don't really examine what they actually mean. I never understood how in some games if you increase your characters proficiency with a firearm, this suddenly means that the bullets he fires will slam harder into his adversaries. We need to focus less on the abstraction of numbers, and refocus back onto the meaning behind that abstraction in the first place.

TLR Don't be like the Division please.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I agree but In a video game like 2077 where numbers might not mean as much, if your characters doesn't get stronger as you progress or level up and everything from your attack and defense comes from the gear and augmentations used, then my worry is what's to stop everyone from using the same gear set up to being the fast moving mobile tank. A lot of RPG's fail at this from end game content reigning supreme which just shouldn't be the case.

I think at even 100 levels higher, a headshot is death unless there's gear or augmentations to prevent it from being lethal. The problem is, every will be using the same gear the allows them to survive the longest, how do you balance this so that no one peace of gear or setup is the best. Every thing must have a severe weakness to something else.

Don't be the Division or even worse... Destiny

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

In case the enemy has no head gear and the hit is not a graze... the enemy should die.

But of course popping headshots should not be something you just do with your leet shooter skillz. The characters skill should factor in that heavily.

 

[Eltyris]

Obviously, enemy of "high level" should not be walking around without helmet/heavy protection gear.

In this case, no levels should exist and gear/cyberware/AI aggression should play a larger role in differentiating level of threat to the player, while designers should present all this more intuitively to the player.

Low level enemy: ragged, worn out clothes and equipment, very limited arsenal/gear, hunchback posture, skittish personality, low bass voice, coloring of equipment ( more dominant "light" colors: green, blue, white), AI non relentless and easily breaks when panic

High level...complete opposite of all of this

There should be some variation in stats/health...but in numbers closer to 50% instead of ten ( or more) times as much.

To substitute massive increase in player base stats, progression should be more "spread out", oriented on branching out in different variations of skills, managing gear and economy.

Similar to Enderal ( though it was a "bit" overdrawn there)...you level up, you earn learning points that you can spend on improving them. But you also need to pay $ ( this can be done with online/braindance courses) for it..money that can also be spent on obtaining a better piece of equipment, crafting/upgrade resources, drugs/stimpacks, gadgets, Trauma team service, etc...you always have to choose one thing over others. Low level character should feel like someone scrapping by to survive, slow progression across all systems. ( they tried to do something similar with Witcher haggling...but it was pointless with overbloated loot system).

In rpgs, what makes a good progression system is when only one ( or few), limited resource(s) is used across different systems for developing your character...in Arcanum you gain only one point per lvl up, and it's used to improve everything: Hp, stamina, learn spells, stats, skills, tech recipes, etc.
Or in Souls, where experience points are also in game currency.

 

[Eltyris]

Don't be the Division or even worse... Destiny

This has always been a problem, especially with rpgs...only it was not criticized 'cause old games were so muh better!

In Gothic I , you could end up hitting enemy indefinitely if you did not pass a damage treshold..second was only slightly "better".

The problem is, every will be using the same gear the allows them to survive the longest, how do you balance this so that no one peace of gear or setup is the best. Every thing must have a severe weakness to something else.

Price, how available it is, easy to repair, weight ( affects speed, stamina), other factors( like stealth), etc.

CDPR really needs to hire a good designer(s) when it comes to loot, itemization and economy.

 

[metalmaniac21]

My dream rpg doesn't have such throwback as levels to determinant the difference between player and enemies, the only difference between me and enemy is equipment, stats, skills and an AI "playstyle" based on these parameters, what are you talking about KyleRowley ?

 

[4meg]

Agreed MM21. The idea of levels in CP2077 is not a good one. I always hated the way levels worked in other rpgs. Just because a character was a level or two higher they were nigh on invincible. I reminds me of the whole jedi thing where if one has they higher ground they can't possibly be beaten.

Nope. Bullets suck. Everyone should beware of them.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, he gets a few of those "my dream RPG doesn't have..." answers, which is fine. BUT IF IT DID have levels or something level-shaped, what would you like to see?

Oh and headshots aren't instant kills. The skull is pretty tough and humans have survived lots of serious trauma to the head.

Neck shots or cuts to the femoral arteries are best. If you can explode the heart also good.

You do indeed need to pass a damage threshold - try to penetrate the skull with a .22 past about 20 feet. Haven't tried that on a human, but friends of mine who ranched only put animals down that way at a few feet out. Even deer will bounce the round depending on angle of incidence and they have thin little skulls.

Headshots are also really hard to make on ambulatory targets while you are also moving, excited, wounded, etc. Pros don't go for them for a reason. VG make it all too easy.

Oh, sometimes one or three similar pieces of gear -are- the best for a job. That's how it goes. Depending on what you do with it, it might outshine all competitors for years. The M14 is a good example of this.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

If it "had to had" some sort of "levels", I'd rather see it based on skills, not character level. Weapons tiered from 1 to 5 based on caliber and weight class (for firearms). Where having skill 1 would unlock the unhindered (sway, accuracy, recoil control, reload times, holstering/unholstering times) use of small size and small caliber weapons that are naturally inefficient. Skill level 2 would give a bonust to that handling.

Weapons upwards from that would get a hefty handling penalty that would make using those weapons feel as awful as it gets; you could still use them though, no level locks here man, your character is just unfamiliar with using that particular weight class.

Same would go with all weapon tiers and all weapon skills.

It's a bit gamey and it'd prevent some kind of pocket annihilators from existing, but it'd do the trick on some level.

 

[Meccanical]

There was a thing called a "threat level" in the Night City supplement. Rather than a standard number system, I think something like this would do the trick to show how dangerous an enemy is.

Or if we do have a level system, I hope it's a 1-10 deal, like the rest of Interlock.

 

[Eltyris]

More extensive armor/durability system with different destruction models would also be interesting. It could play a key role when gunfight breaks loose, target weakest segment to best effect.

Also, based on encounter threat "level", there would be different variation of enemies. Low threat thugs would be disorganized rabble, consisting of few basic attack-type of enemies, easily breaks into panic.
High level would be more of a group of specialists, coordinating with one another. Really, it comes down to AI, armor/equipment/skills, and encounter/level design.

 

[Rawls]

I think it ought to be that they die most of the time if they're shot in the head with no sort of protection. At the very least incapacitated.

 

[Suhiira]

First of all I'd argue that "levels" are totally irrelevant when it comes to combat RESULTS.
Yes, a higher "level" character may/should have more skill when it comes to their chance to hit an opponent, and almost undoubtedly has better weapons/armor but once hit it doesn't matter if you're "level" 1 of 9000. People don't miraculously gain more "hit points" in real life, nor should they in games. Bullets don't hit harder if you're "higher level", nor should they in game.

Getting hit in the head is bad for you, probably (but not always) lethal. Your head also includes your jaw, ears, nose, and other non-lethal parts that could be destroyed by a bullet but not be lethal. IRL it's about 50/50 if a head hit is in the brainbox, use the same in game. And if you're concerned with character survivibility, cheat (like any good PnP GM), make it 80/20 for PCs and 50/50 for NPCs.

 

[Sirenapples]

Are they wearing a helmet? (Contrary to hollywood, armor tends to help and even shot to the head might not knock someone out immediately, let alone a pat to the back of the head.) What type of gun was used? Any implants? Is the human enemy a cyborg with a false head? Reinforced skull? Any personal force fields, point defense, or similar defenses? Did the bullet hit directly or did it hit at an angle causing the bullet to miss the brain matter or recoil off the skull. Did they stabilize? How good is medical technology. Any passive tech that automatically triggered first aid systems?

If it killed them, did they have a Backup of themselves? Clone, mind lift, or was that target the clone in the first place? Was it a hologram? Body double? Did they have some sort of robotic backup that though the biological matter might have been incapacitated, an AI took control to get the person to safety / self defense? Personal drones?


Dying isn't often so instant. People receive mortal wounds and may yet keep fighting and trying to survive. Many times a mortal wound can be tended to stop the dying process. Games and fiction rarely think about this, and you'll see people die or get knocked out from single not even hard blows and instantly fall. It's a pet peeve.


I'd like to see a game where there are no traditional levels, but are Combat Threat and Social threat levels. Based entirely on your equipment or self-improvements and training. You might play for 80 hours but a bullet would still be lethal if you don't have armor, implants, tech, or other things relevant to making sure a bullet doesn't kill you. But time and effort spent elsewhere means you're effective in other areas, such as manipulating NPCs and assets.

 

[4meg]

People don't miraculously gain more "hit points" in real life, nor should they in games.

I realize hit points are an abstraction to represent a player's skill in combat, but most gamers see them as an indication of how tough your character is.

I would prefer a system in CP2077 where every base character has the same mortality 'stat'. Any wound can be life threatening, but it's all the extras you have that mitigate threat. Combat endo-skeleton, mylar muscle enhancers, Quik-clotting synth-blood, etc. A bullet to the head should still ring your bell if you're hit though.

 

[RLKing1969]

If the game stays true to the pnp, you won't HAVE to worry about levels. The only difference that more experienced characters had in the pnp was simply that. EXPERIENCE (Not to mention, the ability to buy much more fantastic gear to protect themselves and usually had a list of allies and contacts longer than your arm as well as Trauma Team coverage... which COULD conceivably save their lives...but I digress.). The point is: Even the most "Billy/Betty Badass" Character could (And often DID) eat the big one from a well placed shot from a lucky punk....Though there MIGHT be unforeseen consequences.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

IF there were levels... And there might; they are so ingrained into gamers' heads (thanks to that game with elves and magic) that I fear many people would reject a system that did away with them... I hope it's at least CREATIVELY done. I don't have a good example of what I'm looking for, I only know that I'm weary of numbers games without anything else. Because if you know how to work the numbers, you can be unbeatable. Then you put it on youtube and EVERYONE becomes unbeatable, and then devs have a headache trying to make people beatable again without screwing up core systems already in place. We, the players, should really be nicer to the poor guys.

 

[Eltyris]

Hmm, am I the only one worried that CDPR's lead designer is asking these questions? I mean, this is not rocket science or something you need a Tesla to figure out.
Let's hope Rowley is simply gauging people's thoughts on this.

 

[Eltyris]

Yeah, he gets a few of those "my dream RPG doesn't have..." answers, which is fine. BUT IF IT DID have levels or something level-shaped, what would you like to see?

Oh and headshots aren't instant kills. The skull is pretty tough and humans have survived lots of serious trauma to the head.

Neck shots or cuts to the femoral arteries are best. If you can explode the heart also good.

You do indeed need to pass a damage threshold - try to penetrate the skull with a .22 past about 20 feet. Haven't tried that on a human, but friends of mine who ranched only put animals down that way at a few feet out. Even deer will bounce the round depending on angle of incidence and they have thin little skulls.

Headshots are also really hard to make on ambulatory targets while you are also moving, excited, wounded, etc. Pros don't go for them for a reason. VG make it all too easy.

Oh, sometimes one or three similar pieces of gear -are- the best for a job. That's how it goes. Depending on what you do with it, it might outshine all competitors for years. The M14 is a good example of this.

They could try and do something similar to Gothic. It's one thing to pull out a gun and shoot someone. It's entirely different finishing someone who's in pain laying on the ground, obvious state of panic, clutching for their life.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't have a good example of what I'm looking for, I only know that I'm weary of numbers games without anything else. Because if you know how to work the numbers, you can be unbeatable. Then you put it on youtube and EVERYONE becomes unbeatable, and then devs have a headache trying to make people beatable again without screwing up core systems already in place.

An element of randomness would do the trick of mitigating that kind of powergaming, as the results are not flat based on the numbers.

It's widerly considered dreadful and CDPR representatives have said that "dicerolls are super boring" (which they are not... no, really, they aren't if the mechanisms around them aren't), so it's not a like candidate to help out, but it would work.