Your Fears For the Game - Combined Thread

[zenstrata]

Your Fears For the Game - Combined Thread

So this is one of the games i've been watching since its inception and the first news releases on the internet. I have great respect for CD Projekt Red and the games they have made. I applaud their GOG system and continually direct friends and people in my everyday life to go to them for games due to their respect for their customers by Not adding useless and potentially harmful DRM systems to their games.

But if I see loot boxes and a real-money micro-transaction system set up for buying them in Cyberpunk, I will not buy it.

Now I realize that i'm akin to the proverbial Canary in the Coal Mine when it comes to this stuff. And very likely the game will do fine even if these things are added in. But it will cause me to lose a significant amount of respect for CD Projekt Red as a publisher/developer, and cause me to seriously consider not doing business with them in the future.

EA has already lost my business due to their activities in this regard. I didn't buy the latest Deus Ex title because of the included Micro-Transactions, and I love that series and have purchased and played all the rest of them when they came out. This has also caused me to not purchase many games lately for the same reason, I did not and will not buy, Shadow of MoreDollars, Destiny 2, Star Wars Battlefront 2. And likely EA's upcoming Anthem title i'll avoid for the same reason.

I suspect eventually the rest of the market will catch up with me on this and EA will see a large falloff because of the way they are mistreating their customers. Much in the same way the Mobile Gaming market is no longer talked about as being 'the next big thing' because they milked the public dry by turning the platform into a micro-transaction laden hell-hole.

Please continue to treat your customers with respect by not including these potentially abusive systems into your games. If not, i'll be sad, and you'll probably still be successful. But I won't be playing your games.

 

[Sardukhar]

But if I see loot boxes and a real-money micro-transaction system set up for buying them in Cyberpunk, I will not buy it.

That's fine - in which case, you're voting with your dollar. It's a mistake, but it's your dollar.

If you give up on the great writing and game design that characterizes CDPR games because of this admittedly annoying feature, that's on you. But it's very much a cut-your-nose-off-to-spite-your-face reaction.

Also, CDPR quite likes their fans and would prefer not to anger us if avoidable. That said, they will make their game, not ours. For us! But by them.

Let's see, things which other people have said will cause a no-buy, off the top of my head:

Action-oriented shooter game play.

First-person shooter gameplay.

Turn-based gameplay.

DRM. Any kind.

Paid-for cosmetics.

Paid-for DLC.

No Linux.

No voices.

Multiplayer.

No multiplayer.

No vehicles.

Can't make own character.

Have to make own character.

Probably more, but that's a list of things I've seen people say would cause them to not buy or reconsider buying this game that's not out yet that we have pretty much no details on.

 

[zenstrata]

Some things are worth cutting off the face for. Consider what your line is, Everyone has a line they are very unlikely to cross. If a company begins to abuse their customers through their business practices, eventually they will lose those customers because of those actions.

As I said, i realize i'm the Canary in the Coal Mine here. I have very strong ideals and often refuse to compromise.

As an example, I had the opportunity in my life to gain $200,000 (yes that is two hundred thousand dollars), simply by telling one lie. It would have hurt no one else, no one would have ever found out, the company would have been happy, I would have been $200,000 richer, but it would have required me to compromise my honor to do it. So I refused. Yes I am poorer because of it. But it was a personal line I refused to cross. It is much the same here. I will not compromise my ideals when it comes to certain things. Real-money micro-transactions with gambling systems like loot boxes attached are one of those things. No compromise there for me. I won't touch it.

(Edit, and this happened to me in the 1980's, That would be $594,140.78 after being adjusted for inflation today! And I said no because of personal honor.)

Also consider a world where people did not stand up for their ideals. Very likely it would not be a world we would want to live in.

 

[Guest 4149880]

That's fine - in which case, you're voting with your dollar. It's a mistake, but it's your dollar.

If you give up on the great writing and game design that characterizes CDPR games because of this admittedly annoying feature, that's on you. But it's very much a cut-your-nose-off-to-spite-your-face reaction.

Also, CDPR quite likes their fans and would prefer not to anger us if avoidable. That said, they will make their game, not ours. For us! But by them.

Let's see, things which other people have said will cause a no-buy, off the top of my head:

Action-oriented shooter game play.

First-person shooter gameplay.

Turn-based gameplay.

DRM. Any kind.

Paid-for cosmetics.

Paid-for DLC.

No Linux.

No voices.

Multiplayer.

No multiplayer.

No vehicles.

Can't make own character.

Have to make own character.

Probably more, but that's a list of things I've seen people say would cause them to not buy or reconsider buying this game that's not out yet that we have pretty much no details on.

All the best features in a game is besides the point, if a company decides all they really want from you is money and only care about the bottom line, and con you into their shady business schemes at any cost. No amount of content is worth the price of being manipulated NOW by what will be the video game industries eventual undoing with micro transactions in the FUTURE and anyone supporting it are only furthering the problem.

Its not a mistake, with ever dollar spent not supporting this bad business industry will show proof. Look as Visceral Games well deserved demise starting with Dead Space 3 extreme lack of sales because of EA forced inclusion of Micro transactions and sales don't lie, following the cancelation of a highly anticipated Star Wars game because it doesn't fit the leading criteria of the industry being the business of consumers serving them instead of the other way around.

And sure CDPR will make their game but they know very well it won't sell if they go against what the consumer wants obviously. Of course people might not agree on the game features, fine but micro transactions are hardly features and that isn't the same as not wanting to buy a game based on how it plays.

Buying a great game even knowing it contains such ridiculous "features" is what's wrong in the industry and it will only get worse if people just ignore it or take it so lightly.

 

[Sardukhar]

Buying a great game even knowing it contains such ridiculous "features" is what's wrong in the industry and it will only get worse if people just ignore it or take it so lightly.

I've been hearing that since the first copy protection came out forever ago. It's not accurate. Sure, some features have gotten..different? Copy protection is actually less annoying now than, say, Securom. Or the old wheels.

There is so much wrong in the industry it's amazing anything is right.

Consoles were going to destroy PC gaming. Piracy, same story. DLC was the end. Bugs in games were going to destroy sales. Mass-market appeal. Etc.

What does kill sales is, generally, crappy games (Dragon Age 2) or games that are over hyped and then a let down (Deus Ex Mankind Divided).

It's not EAs terrible business practices that cost them sales - they make lots of sales. It's that a lot of the games they make are well-hyped, well-marketed so-so games. When they get a good one and they market it, hey, it sells really well. And yes, they will try and top off with something like DLC or loot boxes or for-pay cosmetics or whatever. They will always try stuff like this. Always. It's literally their job.

So, no, I wouldn't say boycott a great game with a less-than-bright side effect. I'd say make a point of what you don't like about it, respectfully and clearly, but yeah, buy a good game. buy every good game you want to play.

This latest stupidity will either mellow out or disappear altogether eventually. Until the next one.

 

[Guest 4149880]

This latest stupidity will either mellow out or disappear altogether eventually. Until the next one.

I wouldn't say its stupidity when people have a legitimate reason not to support and it and feel the need to express their views on it. It may be one recent change in the industry but another change here, another change there... Eventually we're all going to be dealing with the results anyway, good or not and from the way the industry is leaning, its not looking good. And no one can bitch later about what gaming culture has come too when they knowingly supported it.

The biggest issues usually evolve and arise repeatedly over a long period of time by ignorance and neglect.

 

[Rawls]

Yeah here are my no buy conditions:

1. There are other games that seem more interesting to play available.

Games ought to live and die by how good a product they are. There are some things (like loot boxes for example) that make them less appealing. However I'm not aware of an specific mechanic or item that would make the game a no-go on it's own. Don't get me wrong, there are certain things I definitely prefer (voiced protagonist, open world, excellent storytelling) but there are few things that would be a deal breaker on there own. The ultimate question is - does it seem like a good game?

Having said that ... I really hope there aren't micro transactions or loot boxes. Mostly because that will be development resources spent on stuff I'll completely ignore.

 

[Rawls]

While an incredible game, I have to say that sometimes I felt that it went too far with the darkness and it just felt.... pointless, like what's the point of making choises if its bound to suck no matter what? At least that's how I felt when playing it the first time and after a point in the game I just couldn't care about anything.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I would say if anything ... the dystopian-ish future of the Cyberpunk setting is likely to have more moral ambiguity and noir-ish components than the witcher series ever did. As a genre of fiction, cyberpunk (with a small c) writers tend to use elements from hard boiled detective fiction, film noir, and postmodernist prose to describe an often nihilistic underground side of an electronic society. The specific PnP RPG game this cRPG is based on, Cyberpunk, is steeped in these tropes. The basic idea is that mega corporations have taken over society and the characters of the story are "living on the edge" of a world where high tech opportunities meet low life morality.

 

[Sardukhar]

I wouldn't say its stupidity when people have a legitimate reason not to support .

No, no. You misunderstood. The loot boxes and for-pay are the stupidity. Not player frustration, that's quite understandable.

 

[4meg]

Loot boxes and micro transactions would certainly be irritating, but not a reason not to buy and play the game. Paying for such things might make the game play 'easier', but I doubt it would make it impossible without them. This is cyberpunk after all, the world is a rotten and tough place, get used to it.

 

[Eltyris]

After GTA online, I can't see how they would not be tempted, but they've kind of pushed themselves into a corner here with their pro-gamer rep. And if they introduce something that even smells of micro transactions...make no mistake: all that goodwill will melt away and CDPR will be crucified by entire gaming community.

Current state of large AAA games is that they are too risky and becoming more and more expensive, so developers are adapting to "extend the game" past a few months. Games as a "service".
I'm not opposed to it, so long as content is worth it and not something that feels cut off from the game and you're buying game in chunks.

As we've seen with Witcher's expansions, DLC can be of higher quality than the main game, as developers have more experience and can apply what they've learned from player criticism.

Their only real alternative for that "mainstream $ success", ( outside of quality of their games) , is through modding community.

Results may not be as direct, but years of free marketing, extended life line of the game, popularity, sales from DLC tied to mods, and possible direct recruitment of talent already experienced ( with your tools), could easily offset this.

 

[4meg]

Rawls is right B171189. If you thought Witcher 3 was dark, CP2077 is not going to make you any happier. Cyberpunk is a setting where the choices will be between shit or fucking shit.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Loot boxes and micro transactions would certainly be irritating, but not a reason not to buy and play the game. Paying for such things might make the game play 'easier', but I doubt it would make it impossible without them. This is cyberpunk after all, the world is a rotten and tough place, get used to it.

Pretty sure the whole Cyberpunk trope, going against the machine makes micro transactions hypocritical for CDPR to put them into the game itself. People won't get used to it because the strong will rebel and that's what makes change and the sheep will follow.

 

[B171189]

Welcome to the forums, I'm one of the mods here. which choices made you feel that way in Witcher 3? Are you talking about Ciri?

Thank you very much, I am glad to be around.

Ciri was actually one of very few characters that make me care about her fate and Geralt's.

 

[B171189]

Rawls is right B171189. If you thought Witcher 3 was dark, CP2077 is not going to make you any happier. Cyberpunk is a setting where the choices will be between shit or fucking shit.

We are all at least a little bit masochistic around here and I am no exception.

 

[B171189]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I would say if anything ... the dystopian-ish future of the Cyberpunk setting is likely to have more moral ambiguity and noir-ish components than the witcher series ever did. As a genre of fiction, cyberpunk (with a small c) writers tend to use elements from hard boiled detective fiction, film noir, and postmodernist prose to describe an often nihilistic underground side of an electronic society. The specific PnP RPG game this cRPG is based on, Cyberpunk, is steeped in these tropes. The basic idea is that mega corporations have taken over society and the characters of the story are "living on the edge" of a world where high tech opportunities meet low life morality.

Moral ambiguity is something I like in any story ever as long as the characters in it are relatable and human. Witcher 3 was a dark medieval fantasy setting with characters witch morals reflect it, namely non-existent, it just felt funny that Geralt felt to have the moral high ground in pretty much all his interactions. I just hope that the antagonists in CP2077 are going to have some more pragmatic and even understandable reasons for what they do besides the typical sharp-dressed sadistic jerk and at least some characters who try to change things for the better even if they are willing to use the exact same methods.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

I think it's one thing for a FREE game to have transactions... quite another for a full priced game to have them. And I highly doubt 2077 will be free ninety-nine. So no microtransactions.

pretty please? I'll give you all the cherries you want on top of that please if you agree

 

[AdamTaylor]

I am opposed to microtransactions in single player games on principle. But that's not going to stop me buying an amazing game as long as the mtx isn't bad.

Shadow of War for example, is a great way of handling the whole "loot box" thing. Firstly, because they are not required in ANY way. You never once have to buy a loot box to proceed. They're not needed to "get an advantage" and they're never pushed on the player. You're told about the market once, then the game shuts up about it. You also have boxes purchasable with in game currency, which is good, as they're not forcing people to actually spend real money. There are "better" boxes you can buy with gold (which costs money), but they're basically just better rarity chance stuff, not guaranteed item X or anything like that. Plus there's daily quests and such which get you gold anyway. So simply playing the game will get you those regardless.
But another important factor is that the stuff from loot boxes isn't "better" than what you get in game. In fact, most of the time, it's worse. The main mechanic in the game is dominating orcs to add to your army. You want to find orcs with good skill sets. There are epic and legendary orcs, which basically just get an extra ability or two. But the common orcs can be just as good, and are more likely to be because you're far more likely to see a common orc with a "perfect" skill set as opposed to legendary ones. So while you can get guaranteed legendary orcs through gold loot boxes, they're most often going to be complete garbage, just like the orcs from free loot boxes, because they all just get randomized skills. So 9 out of 10 orcs you get from a box will just be worthless. You can and will find better by just playing, plus the ones you encounter as you play can be customized and improved by player actions. So you can "craft" perfect orcs easily.
So, sure, you could buy a bunch of loot boxes (with in game currency or real money) to get a bunch of orcs real quick... but they're pretty much going to be garbage. Or you could take 10-30 minutes dominating an uber army by, you know, PLAYING THE GAME.

Meanwhile you have games like Assassin's Creed Origins, where there is content that is ONLY AVAILABLE THROUGH PAID LOOT BOXES! THAT is just wrong, and is why I will NEVER be buying that game. I don't care if loot boxes are a shortcut, or contain boosters or anything like that. But if they are required to 100% a game, then they're done wrong. At the same time, the game has to NOT be designed around the mtx system. If microtransactions can give players a boost, that's fine. But if the game is designed to be a huge grind unless you buy the mtx... then that's a definitely red flag and something on my "never buy" list.

If they do put mtx in CP, I'm hoping it's going to be non-invasion and completely unneeded. Maybe gear or something (that you could get anyway by just playing). Or say XP (or CP equivalent) or money boosters, so you earn say 5-10% more for an hour... fine. Cosmetics... eh... I'm not a fan of those being locked away behind a paywall. But if they are going to have cosmetic items behind a paywall, just set it up as DLC and be done with it.

 

[Guest 4149880]

If they do put mtx in CP, I'm hoping it's going to be non-invasion and completely unneeded. Maybe gear or something (that you could get anyway by just playing). Or say XP (or CP equivalent) or money boosters, so you earn say 5-10% more for an hour... fine. Cosmetics... eh... I'm not a fan of those being locked away behind a paywall. But if they are going to have cosmetic items behind a paywall, just set it up as DLC and be done with it.

The problem is that any MT that are implemented, are done so for a very specific reason. The game is built to hold you back so that players feel that desire to buy them. Cosmetics on a MT system is content that could have been implemented into the game from the start or added as valuable content in later DLC. Xp boosters are there because the game is built so the player needlessly grinds for unreasonable amounts of time. Currency boosters are no different as it should be a system built within the game.

The gaming industry is littered with MTs and its getting even worse when you spend real money on loot boxes, and the content within is also completely random. Its a whole new level of getting fucked over and its working, very sad.

I think the argument that cosmetics or content that's not pay to win is Ok is just ignorance on the players part. Thats just people trying to justify paying extra for their favorite games content. The devs/publishers are still attempting to con players into paying for more bullshit to counter balance purposely made bad game content when none of it's needed.

 

[reidyboy102998]

I am just hoping that there are no micro transactions or loot boxes in Cyberpunk 2077. It would suck honestly, and I would hate for that to happen with this game or any CDPR titles.