Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Ah, you aren't really familiar with Cyberpunk cyberware, bioware and nanoware, are you? Probably good if you were a bit familiar with the system before deciding CDPR should shoehorn a new perk system into it.
The cyberware: http://datafortress2020.com/ultrachrome/Cyberware.html

With that you can, in no particular order:

Run as fast as a car, jump two stories, fire a grappling hook from your arm into a wall, breathe underwater, see with sonar and even track snipers with echolocation, see through walls, fire lasers from your eyes, become ambidextrous - or four armed - with independent targetting systems for each, immobilize or kill with a touch, cut through armour and flesh with a sawblade-hand(s), breathe fire, kick through a wall or car door, carry a wet bar in your leg full of your favourite drinks, fire grenades from your fingers, turn your skin the same design as what's behind you like a chameleon, leave your eye as a camera or have one in your hand or nearly any other body part, watch video on your arm or in your cyber-eye, track by smell, turn off pain, analyze chemicals, etc. etc. etc. And so much more.

Most of what perks from abilities do in games like Fallout, for no good reason, ( Heavy weapons do more damage because my strength is higher! Or skill! Or whatever!) either come with higher skill levels in Cyberpunk, (I can do more damage with heavy weapons because I hit more often with them and put the rounds where I want now) or because you modify the weapon or have the cyberware (I have a Linear frame! I now wield a Barret-Arasaka in each of my FOUR arms..and they are all smart-linked! Muwahahahahah! ).

So a perk system is a shallow, unrealistic, even silly "fix" for what Cyberpunk already does much, much better. I have seen hundreds of Cyberpunk characters. Outside of certain Solo builds in the first months, (until the Chromebooks came out) they are all very different.

CPunk doesn't lack for variety.




Yes. It is very unrealistic. We're hoping this doesn't turn into another flashy Bulletstorm-ish action shooter, in either real time or tactical-format. No dodging bullets, no taking nine hits to the head as you sidestep back and forth amidst a hail of gunfire. Blech. I enjoy DOOM and UT, but that's not Cyberpunk

Err, yes, I've seen that. And yes, I agree perks in this setting cannot grant "magical powers" or alterations ( like in fantasy rpgs or overhaul mods) or can compete with cybernetic implants in this. Master of stealth: when standing still, you become "invisible"... that sort of thing would be silly here.
What they can do is add another layer of depth when it comes to "physical", direct gameplay and add more dependancy between stats and skills and player basic actions. This is too specific and implants operate independent of that.

As for char progression when it comes to core combat mechanics( which most likely will comprise of shooting mechanics here) if there is anything to learn from Witcher is how important is to put more effort on that aspect. It's not about turning the player into superhero, but illustrating progression in skill with strong visual design and satisfying feedback ( Dragon's Dogma, anyone?). No reason this cannot be done here, with moderation.

Anyway, I've said my piece here ( too many times), it's up to them, and it's obvious no one will change anyone's mind here.
Their biggest challenge will be presenting this to masses in recognizable and accesible form ( on some level at least) while retaining complexity.

 

[Sardukhar]

So I ran across this on an article concerning Deus Ex 1. It kind of summed up the issue with combining RPG and shooter mechanics today, and the expectations of modern players. Whether you agree or not, realise this person will not be alone in their issues.

"I have tried several times to play the original Deus Ex, but the gameplay really aged poorly.
I remember that the last time I tried to played it, the sniper rifle moved very weird when I was trying to aim, also, all the stealth weapons that I had avaible at the begining failed to kill any enemy with one shot(even when being shoot on the head), making the stealth weapons something pointless.
I can understand that this game may be revolutionary for its time and why everyone loves it, and it's nothing wrong loving this game and enjoying it, but seriously: stop pretending that the gameplay didn't age."

Not just the crosshair moving, ( he didn't seem to understand about the skills) but also the supposition that if you can't one-shot-kill from stealth, there is no point.

Games have a lot of baggage now, thanks to Unreal, Skyrim, GTA, etc. If we discard that baggage, we better come up with better - and explain why.

 

[Hoplite_22]

man i probably would have been like that if not for System Shock 2... Sigh, so old now, still so good.

 

[Mebrilia]

Cyberpunk pen and paper have amazing rules and i am really sure we can use them well even in real time with shooting mechanics...
There is a lot of ways that this can be implemented but in the end Bloodlines attempted already to do this and they for cure could even succeded if they had more time to develop....
Now Deus Ex is always a game that for me despite how good it was attempted to be many things..

The question is all this claiming to appeal to modern gamers...

Well let's talk about a modern title fallout 4.... Everyone claims how it have better shooting mechanics... But you can perfectly empty mags in the head of the ennemy and see them still running and shooting at you...I honestly never praise modern gaming especially when we talk about RPG...

The so called modern RPG are usually titles where there are a lot of mechanics minus RP.... Take skyrim for example they basically dumbed down everything to have a more actiony gameplay removing features the other older games had in order to please the instant gratification crowd...

I would like to see cyberpunk as complex as the pen and paper... and yes is possible to do this and avoid to kill the setting nature with cyberambo session... Is also woth to mentions that usually shooting mechanics in games don't feel good at all... Unlike arma many games have a really almost no existent recoil weapons feel plastic.... You can tell the difference when you are firing an heavy machinegun in arma unlike in other games where there is not even recoil at all...

What i wish and expect is an in depth RPG worth for the title of cyberpunk if will turn out to be a shooter or a generic action rpg i will totally skip the game after all there are plenty and plenty of games like that... If the devs are brave enough to stick with integrity instead to try to please for the majority crowds that clearly are not interested in RPG but in interactive fiction or action game maybe we will end to have a title proud to be called RPG....

Don't take this wrong witcher 3 was fantastic... But also dumbed down in many gamey ways....

 

[Meccanical]

No Title

So I ran across this on an article concerning Deus Ex 1. It kind of summed up the issue with combining RPG and shooter mechanics today, and the expectations of modern players. Whether you agree or not, realise this person will not be alone in their issues.

"I have tried several times to play the original Deus Ex, but the gameplay really aged poorly.
I remember that the last time I tried to played it, the sniper rifle moved very weird when I was trying to aim, also, all the stealth weapons that I had avaible at the begining failed to kill any enemy with one shot(even when being shoot on the head), making the stealth weapons something pointless.
I can understand that this game may be revolutionary for its time and why everyone loves it, and it's nothing wrong loving this game and enjoying it, but seriously: stop pretending that the gameplay didn't age."

 

[metalmaniac21]

"I have tried several times to play the original Deus Ex, but the gameplay really aged poorly. I remember that the last time I tried to played it, the sniper rifle moved very weird when I was trying to aim, also, all the stealth weapons that I had avaible at the begining failed to kill any enemy with one shot(even when being shoot on the head), making the stealth weapons something pointless. I can understand that this game may be revolutionary for its time and why everyone loves it, and it's nothing wrong loving this game and enjoying it, but seriously: stop pretending that the gameplay didn't age."

Aaaand this is why skills getting removed and why your weapon aiming is always perfect. And this is why we can't have nice things. And this is why the "complexity" of Cyberpunk 2077 is under a big concern.

 

[Suhiira]

Aaaand this is why skills getting removed and why your weapon aiming is always perfect. And this is why we can't have nice things. And this is why the "complexity" of Cyberpunk 2077 is under a big concern.

Look at Vampire: Bloodlines ... the combat sucked when it was released and is even worse by modern standards. But it's still a classic because of the character potential via clan/stats/skills and some of the events in the game.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Aaaand this is why skills getting removed and why your weapon aiming is always perfect. And this is why we can't have nice things. And this is why the "complexity" of Cyberpunk 2077 is under a big concern.

Indeed.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Aaaand this is why skills getting removed and why your weapon aiming is always perfect. And this is why we can't have nice things. And this is why the "complexity" of Cyberpunk 2077 is under a big concern.

Yes and No. It's true that transition from turn/round based to real time action was not a smooth ride for some developers...essentially it comes down to hamfisting two systems together while ignoring they have two very origins and different goals, and as result gameplay mechanics clearly end up contradicting one another.
That is why doing the same here, will have the same results ...first entry tries this-> very negative reception by majority of players-> higher ups notice this "Ok, that didn't work...remove rpg from action from now on"-> "rpg" in gameplay is relegated to simply having a bit more categorized access to perks/"powers" ( which is not all that different from what straightforward action games today have: Far Cry, Tomb Raider, hell even Call of Duty, etc)
So pushing an angle for elements of turn based/core rpg combat here would have the opposite result in the end; It happened with Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Mass Effect, Witcher and so on...the "dumbing down".

But there are positive examples...games like Dark Souls and Mount&Blade where developers from the start understood that arpg's cannot have rpg systems interfering with real time action to the point of disrupting it/breaking them down and instead used them to add more dynamic and complexity to character builds and action.

Ironically today we have animation tech to illustrate rpg progression far better than before so player can directly experience it, instead of dumping it all on you have x% chance of doing y, back on the char screen.

 

[Tarathelion]

and yet dark souls is not really a rpg game

 

[Sardukhar]

and yet dark souls is not really a rpg game

Exactly. Also the combat in DS and Mount and Blade bored the hell out of me. Not only did I not feel it connected my character to his skills, ( felt like it was all me), I found it clumsy and tedious. Really the worst of both worlds.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

and yet dark souls is not really a rpg game

It isn't less than is, but in how it's stats and weapons mechanics are connected together is something a Lot of rpg's can look up to. ( Elder Scrolls, in particular)

As for Mount&Blade it simply suffers on basic technical level ( made on very low budget and a handful of people), but is probably the best example of ARPG with high skill ceiling of a good action game and complexity within it's rpg mechanics/char building.

 

[Mebrilia]

Dark souls could be defined as dungeron crawler or hack and slash by the old method of Gaming Category (the one that always worked) Mount & Blade was stat based and skill based overall been a nice experience to me... But still...

In a RPG you should be alble to play a character that is good at shooting even if you are a player that don't have reflexes.... Because that is what an RPG on his how right should allow

 

[metalmaniac21]

Look at Vampire: Bloodlines

Looking every year, yet still always want to question people instead. What did you expect if your character suck at firing a gun? I always max out guns and go through the game like a knife through hot butter. The same deal with melee, but nobody pays attention, because someone long time ago advised always go melee. Which makes fights in the beginning sections even harder and "worse" than guns in fact, more looking like round-based.

Ever watched "Pulp Fiction"? Yeah, that's not divine intervention, that's what actually happens with anyone firing a revovlver with insufficient skills.

 

[Suhiira]

Ever watched "Pulp Fiction"? Yeah, that's not divine intervention, that's what actually happens with anyone firing a revovlver with insufficient skills.

I've mentioned before that while I'm a "sniper" quality shooter with a rifle I'm average, at best, with a handgun.

If you look at police statistics; at ranges of 3 to 5m most people hit a man-sized target less then 40% of the time, increase this to 15m and it's less then 10%. Add the chaos of a battlefield and there's a reason in real wars they tend to use about 10,000 rounds of small arms ammo per verified enemy casualty.

 

[Sardukhar]

I've mentioned before that while I'm a "sniper" quality shooter with a rifle I'm average, at best, with a handgun.

If you look at police statistics; at ranges of 3 to 5m most people hit a man-sized target less then 40% of the time, increase this to 15m and it's less then 10%. Add the chaos of a battlefield and there's a reason in real wars they tend to use about 10,000 rounds of small arms ammo per verified enemy casualty.

Yep! If you've ever fired under stress, get used to missing! If you aren't missing, then, I can say only, "Oh, Mr. Hathcock! I heard you were dead?!"

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

That's the reason why character stats should make a huge difference, and why the "FPS" part of it - should it have it - should absolutely suck balls until the character has the required skills to pull it off - or unless the player specifically chooses to build a Lucky Luke character from the get go (which should be possible by sacrificing aptitudes in other areas).

 

[metalmaniac21]

I've mentioned before that while I'm a "sniper" quality shooter with a rifle I'm average, at best, with a handgun.

If you look at police statistics; at ranges of 3 to 5m most people hit a man-sized target less then 40% of the time, increase this to 15m and it's less then 10%. Add the chaos of a battlefield and there's a reason in real wars they tend to use about 10,000 rounds of small arms ammo per verified enemy casualty.

That's the reason why character stats should make a huge difference, and why the "FPS" part of it - should it have it - should absolutely suck balls until the character has the required skills to pull it off - or unless the player specifically chooses to build a Lucky Luke character from the get go (which should be possible by sacrificing aptitudes in other areas). "Human being in his last extremity is a bag of shit."

That what's VtM:B does pretty much. Just because you're a stiff walking corpse, it still doesn't give you the ability to run and jump around with a gun Unreal Tournament-style.

 

[Sardukhar]

That what's VtM:B does pretty much. Just because you're a stiff walking corpse, it still doesn't give you the ability to run and jump around with a gun Unreal Tournament-style.

Heh. Remember firing that stupid .38 you start with, if you had few or no points in Firearms? "WHY? WHY AM I MISSING? HE'S RIGHT THERE! WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS CROSSHAIR??!"

Oh, good times.

Then, later, Celerity 5 and autoshotgun? Mmmm. Delicious.

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah, that's why I oppose FPS combat in CP2077 as the only option.

Well ... that and I totally suck at it ...