Will bullet resistance be a thing for melee characters? What do you guys think?

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reidyboy102998;n7824960 said:
Thanks for giving me more insight about the Cyberpunk universe. Really appreciate it! On topic, bullet resistance would be cool, if only they have some sort of weak spot, let's say an implant on the back of the head. What would happen if the enemy has body plating around certain body parts, or worst case scenario all body plating on all body parts? Would we need some sort of EMP grenade to take out the enemy, or another environmental way/kill to our advantage? I'm going on a tangent and I apologize. Just my interpretation of this that's all.
If it's JUST body plating an EMP grenade would have zero effect, no moving parts or electronics involved.

Sardukhar;n7825040 said:
Dunno if I'd say that, but my example was mostly based on what the cops in the trailer looked like they were using and that according to Cpunk Core Book, NCPD carries the Militech Ronin, 5.56. S&P also gives them the Hurricane Shotgun, but obviously that wasn't in play. Presuming they haven't changed all this by 2077.
I was looking purely at the ammo, the specific weapon is sorta irrelevant. And other then the (highly) theoretical ETC rounds gunpowder has already reached its limits as a propellant so ammo in 2077 will be essentially the same as that used in 2017.

As to ammo types available in Cyberpunk:
http://cyberpunk.asia/munitions_spec.php?lng=us
 
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Suhiira;n7814270 said:
But, to go into it assuming you're going to be bullet proof, dodge them, or have some sort of magical health regen or insta-heal health packs would be inadvisable. If your opponent is in melee range, or very close to it, I have no doubt melee will rock. But if you expect to survive charging across an open space to get into melee ... good luck ... you'll need it. Implants or not you're not going to outrun or dodge bullets.
Suhiira;n7821730 said:
Any armor light enough to carry vice be inside of (i.e. a vehicle or "Battle Dress") isn't going to bounce anything substantial.

Take a look at YouTube, the guys in EOD outfits, see how well they can move, and even that stuff won't stop high caliber/velocity rifle rounds.

Reading these made me totally think of an old quote from one of the rulebooks of Warhammer 40.000.

An open battlefield is nothing but a death trap - in war any visible target is a casualty no matter how well protected it may be.
-Tactica Imperium-​
 
reidyboy102998;n7824960 said:
Thanks for giving me more insight about the Cyberpunk universe. Really appreciate it! On topic, bullet resistance would be cool, if only they have some sort of weak spot, let's say an implant on the back of the head.

Please no special weak spots....at least no ones which gow red which shout "shoot at me"
 
Corewolf;n7820390 said:
So she may have had some Cyber enhancement that let a bullet skip off and shatter.... But had that hit center of mass? I doubt she'd be standing/kneeling in the street

check again. The bullets didn't just skip off. It MIGHT have done damage, but it didn't penetrate.
 
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Mk3rd;n7866120 said:
check again. The bullets didn't just skip off. It MIGHT have done damage, but it didn't penetrate.

True, but the statement still stands. I simply said she wouldn't be standing/kneeling, not that the bullet would have gone in. Bullets won't "always" penetrate to lethal depths through a kevlar vest, but it can still hurt and do damage to the point you have severe bruises, hemorrhage, broken bones, etc Take a look at the attached link for a breakdown of what it is like being shot through body armor.

http://co-ironwill.blogspot.com/2012...oof-vests.html


Center of mass shots would crush armor plating and possibly damage internal organs and still could penetrate. The only reason that bullet off the cheek didn't is that it hit a curved surface, which is true to ballistic science and why some people have survived .22lr rounds to the head, they curve off the skull instead of flattening against something. All that kinetic energy has to go somewhere. Hell one of the big dangers of being hit by a blunt object while wearing plate armor was muscle and tissue damage from muscle being crushed between metal and bone.

Center of mass hits could pulp your guts against whatever plating you have. It's true to Cyberpunk form that even a light arms round can kill you in many circumstances.

Now the girl in the trailer does take a few other hits, one pretty spot on in the shoulder, another in the waist, and the bullets just kinda turn to dust... which isn't even realistic for bullets hitting tank armor so I don't know. Artistic license for the trailer maybe? Still think we need to follow cyberpunk ruleset as far as this though.
 
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Corewolf;n7872220 said:
the girl in the trailer does take a few other hits, one pretty spot on in the shoulder, another in the waist, and the bullets just kinda turn to dust... which isn't even realistic for bullets hitting tank armor so I don't know. Artistic license for the trailer maybe? Still think we need to follow cyberpunk ruleset as far as this though.

Yeah that's what I was wondering because we know that the Reds loove to put OBSESSIVE amounts of detail and little hints and secrets in almost everything they do. A certain bullet type maybe? I dunno.. I WANT to know.
 
Suhiira;n7884070 said:
A low penetration fragible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangible_bullet) bullet might shatter on impact like that, but most would just flatten out and bounce off any armor they couldn't penetrate.

Right, but the only time I've seen frangible rounds used was during training in the military. It would make zero sense for what looked like a well armed riot force in Night City to be using frangible rounds against a Cyberpsycho unless there was some other element to the round that would offset the loss of penetration. I mean maybe they went in equipped with such rounds in hope of minimizing ricochets since they are in an area where civilian casualties are possible with a bounce or blowthrough...

Actually "You're expendable, keep it distracted for the Psycho Squad" would be right up a police corp's operating procedures..
 
Corewolf;n7887350 said:
Right, but the only time I've seen frangible rounds used was during training in the military. It would make zero sense for what looked like a well armed riot force in Night City to be using frangible rounds against a Cyberpsycho unless there was some other element to the round that would offset the loss of penetration. I mean maybe they went in equipped with such rounds in hope of minimizing ricochets since they are in an area where civilian casualties are possible with a bounce or blowthrough...
I once bought, and tested, some of the early fragible rounds (mid 70's). Once the box was gone I never bothered to buy more.

I don't think those were "Riot" cops, just run-of-the-mill officers that had responded to the scene. As to minimizing civilian casualties due to ricochets ... not something the Night City police give much thought to. Welcome to the world of Cyberpunk!

As to how the bullets behaved in the video ... I chalk that up entirely to cinematic license and don't try to read more into it then there is. Watching bullets flatten out and bounce off her is FAR less entertaining then watching them explode into fragments.
 
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Also in cyberpunk there is staggered penetration, Once a round penetrates armor the armor loses 1SP of protective value. So you could be fairly resistant to soft standard rounds and the like. With Pain editors you ignore the shock of being hit so now it's down to damage. A fully plated cyborg could walk through low caliber soft lead and hollow points most likely without issue. However the moment someone pulls out the AP rounds the resistance is going to drop as the AP rounds penetrate the armor, the initial hits don't kill you but the damage you take per following hit increases. I have had some melee oriented borgs in some of the CP games I ran and they can work out well until a fire fight takes place in a more open environment like an open parking lot, or some one knows a heavy hitting borg is going to be there. A burst of full auto shot gun slugs is the cheapest way to make a borg's day bad. You get AP but full damage on penetration.
 
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Rusharn;n7940720 said:
A fully plated cyborg could walk through low caliber soft lead and hollow points most likely without issue. However the moment someone pulls out the AP rounds the resistance is going to drop as the AP rounds penetrate the armor, the initial hits don't kill you but the damage you take per following hit increases

This exactly

Though I don't imagine Night City PD was using soft lead... so I still say Artistic License in the trailer.
 
Actually...is this not sort of assuming that your only shot once? With just one bullet?

Shoot something enough times, even with stuff which would normally not go through, and you will eventually get through even with such ammunition.
 
Calistarius;n8029700 said:
Actually...is this not sort of assuming that your only shot once? With just one bullet?

Shoot something enough times, even with stuff which would normally not go through, and you will eventually get through even with such ammunition.
That depends on the armor.
Shoot rifle bullets at a tank and I suppose eventually you could possibly chisel a hole thru it, 0.1mm at a time, after a few million rounds.

There are more-or-less two types of armor ( and this is VERY simplified ):
Ablative - Absorbs the impact but is damaged in the process.
Hardened - The armor is hard/tough/resilient an thus difficult to penetrate, and can effectively bounce anything up to a material hardness point that exceeds it's own (STRONGLY influenced by the mass and velocity of the projectile) at which time it fails (often shattering).

Human body armor is rarely made of hardened materials because of their mass, bulk, and lack of flexibility; some body armors have a metal trauma plate over the vital organs but this is not common. Most are made of various ballistic weaves, which are ablative type armor.

An oft totally misunderstood fact of Kevlar is that while it may resist bullets pretty well it's extremely lousy protection vs knives or baseball bats.

Again the above is VERY simplified for the sake of avoiding a 100 page dissertation on armor.
 
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Suhiira;n8032150 said:
That depends on the armor.
Shoot rifle bullets at a tank and I suppose eventually you could possibly chisel a hole thru it, 0.1mm at a time, after a few million rounds.

There are more-or-less two types of armor ( and this is VERY simplified ):
Ablative - Absorbs the impact but is damaged in the process.
Hardened - The armor is hard/tough/resilient an thus difficult to penetrate, and can effectively bounce anything up to a material hardness point that exceeds it's own (STRONGLY influenced by the mass and velocity of the projectile) at which time it fails (often shattering).

There is also Reactive, which is mostly seen on vehicles and explodes/launches itself off into a projectile to detonate it away from the body of the vehicle in question.

I mean I guess you could have something like this on a Chromeboy... but it would be impractical with non explosive rounds


Suhiira;n8032150 said:
An oft totally misunderstood fact of Kevlar is that while it may resist bullets pretty well it's extremely lousy protection vs knives or baseball bats.
And that after a round or two (maybe a clip if you are really lucky) it is essentially like wearing a sweater because the ballistic fibers are "used up" meaning any additional rounds will cut through it like cheese.

That and even when the brand new vest DOES stop a round, you still hurt and bruise like a motherfucker.
 
Corewolf;n8034010 said:
There is also Reactive, which is mostly seen on vehicles and explodes/launches itself off into a projectile to detonate it away from the body of the vehicle in question.

I mean I guess you could have something like this on a Chromeboy... but it would be impractical with non explosive rounds
Reactive armor is essentially a variant of ablative armor. Once a section of the reactive layer has been used you no longer have any "armor"on that location, i.e. it's damaged when hit. Also reactive armor is of very limited utility vs anything but shaped charge ammunition, and is extremely hazardous to anything nearby since it is an explosion after all.

Corewolf;n8034010 said:
And that after a round or two (maybe a clip if you are really lucky) it is essentially like wearing a sweater because the ballistic fibers are "used up" meaning any additional rounds will cut through it like cheese.
Again, ablative, the armor is damaged (usually fairly quickly) when hit.
 
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Suhiira;n8034150 said:
Again, ablative, the armor is damaged (usually fairly quickly) when hit.

Ablative armor is armor which prevents damage through the process of ablation, the removal of material from the surface of an object by vaporization, chipping, or other erosive processes

Kevlar would actually be considered Absorptive armor in that it absorbs the kinetic energy, but it doesn't operate through Ablation. Now if you put in trauma/ceramic plates, you have a hybrid ablative/absorptive armor.

IIRC from my army days, a typical ablative plate for a combat vest was said to be good for about 4 bullets (Granted, noone who took fire was counting and replaced them ASAP) but if we are taking modern materials vs metamaterials available in the future of CP2077 , assuming that progress is faster than modern day?

I don't know, It's possible given nanotech carbon reinforcement of things that you could have a skin thin layer that could resist bullets pretty well for quite a bit, moreso if the underlying structure (skeletal and muscular) was metal. Chrome arm could go a long way to not being shot through..

Regardless of the science, I hope super bullet resistance doesn't make it into the game.

 
Potato patato ...

While you're totally correct why confuse people, it absorbs damage and is itself damaged in the process.
 
Suhiira;n8036370 said:
While you're totally correct why confuse people,

Because ELEVATE THE TECHNICAL COMPLICATIONS!!!!

Hazard of being a teacher?

I like technical talk.

Confused people are funny and fast talked at confused gangers are easier to shoot when they are bewildered?

 
Corewolf;n8050050 said:
Because ELEVATE THE TECHNICAL COMPLICATIONS!!!!

Hazard of being a teacher?

I like technical talk.

Confused people are funny and fast talked at confused gangers are easier to shoot when they are bewildered?
Works for me.
 
None the less... what I said is still true... with enough hits armor will eventually fail. And seeing as we are talking about armor for humans here, even if it is on someone heavily augmented, you can probably never carry armor heavy enough, while still retaining atleast some level of combat ability and mobility, to never be effected by it.

If your being shot with a .22 or something... yeah... sure... that's not going to do anything against heavier armor, atleast not in any kind of meaningful amount of time and amount... but chances are that most people you would have gunfights with, in a world like Cyberpunk, is packing something more powerful.

At the same time though... even when bullets to not punch through said armor... they are still going to effect you (asuming we ignore anything less powerful then let's say ~9mm stuff, not sure where the line should be, but 9mm probably works well... also not really talking about the size, the calibre, of the bullet though, but rather more so the actual hitting power of the ammunition). You can after all never really compleatly direct away all the force of the hit from the round (unless the hit of course comes from a very shallow angle so it just bounces off), you're body is still going to take some (or even a lot) of it. As far as I know it is not all that uncommon, after all, for someone to get something like cracked ribs, or worse, from having been shot but where their vest stopped it. Yes, the bullet('s) where stopped, and thanks to the armor it's self some of the force of the bullet went away (which is why it stopepd the bullet in the first place from punching through), but you still took some serious amounts of blund force trauma from it. It might even stun/shock you long enough for you to not be able to react to the next shot that your opponent takes.

And even if we are maybe talking about a majorly augmented person, with some serious levels of armor to take on almost anything... even if those hits might not effect such a person as much as maybe a none augmented person in some heavier kinds of armor... there are going to be other kinds of problems that augmented people might have to face being shot, even if their armor stops the bullets compleatly. Due to the sheer force, of some of these bullets, they could knock things lose in an augmented person. It is after all mechanical and digital stuff we are talking about here... and like all technology there tends to be atleast some vulnerabilities to powerful hits to them. Things like connections and cables coming undone, mechanical things being missaligned so something like a piston is unable to move as it should, etc.

Imagin a augmented guy who takes a shot in the chest, and the connection between his powersupply and his fully augmented arm comes lose... suddenly he has an arm hanging there compleatly useless... just as if a none augmented person got shot through some pretty vital part of their arm or something.

Yeah, sure... augmented stuff probably have various levels of protection for things like this, fail safes, and redundancies, etc... but I seriously doubt that they are 100% protected from it... even a 90% protection against such kinds of misshaps from being shot is a very low number... I mean that would mean that 1 in every 10 hit your augmented armor took, would result in something in their tech being damaged or maybe even stopping to work. Even something like a 99% protection against failure from something shaking lose is not that good of a protection... imagin someone with compleatly bionic legs who has to quickly walk down the stairs in a 25 story building, because the elevators are out (walking down stairs is some of the more violent stuff your body has to go through in normal day life types of things... especially the higher your body weight is)... let's say that there are 15 steps per floor... by the time this guy reaches the ground floor he is statisticly going to have had 3,6 things happening to his mechanical/electrical stuff (15x24/100)... just walking down stairs. XD
 
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