Thoughts on persuasion/axii sign during dialogue?

[Jimbob_2.1]

Thoughts on persuasion/axii sign during dialogue?

I recently watched an interview with a developer (don't remember which) in which he mentioned the return of the persuasion system they had in W2. Personally these kind of luck based systems have really annoyed me, especially in an rpg.

In story driven game like the Witcher were my choices are supposed to matter shouldn't i try to influence people myself? making it luck based takes away the opportunity for really interesting dialogue between me and NPCs. I'd love for geralt to get into a philosophical debate like he does with the dwarf (Yarpin?) in the blood of elves. Perhaps the biggest annoyance for me is feeling like i missed out on something because of RNG.

What do you guys think? Are you happy to see persuasion return? or maybe it's not that big of a deal for you?

 

[addar]

yyyy but u always have a chance to not use axii there was really few moments u were force to use it

 

[Jimbob_2.1]

Yes, you may have had a choice not to use it but in many cases you would loose out if you didn't use it (or persuade/intimidate) and even if you did there was chance you could fail. My point is that wouldn't it be better if you were to persuade an npc through proper dialogue rather than a persuade option? That way if you fail it's your fault and not down to Chance.

 

[ilayoeli]

It shouldn't be a luck-based in any way, but fixed skill-check based on the skill level, like Fallout New Vegas.
And I think persuasion, axii and intimidation should be separate skills and have different minor outcomes so it won't be same-apples-to-same-apples...

 

[Vigilance.492]

It wasn't luck based once you'd succeeded a few times. Basically you "leveled up" Axii/Threaten/Persuade by using them, and then once you'd used them enough it was impossible to fail, or at least the % chance is so high that you'd have to be bloody unlucky to fail. I usually either Persuade or Axii (don't threaten) and I honestly cannot recall failing any of them at any point during the game in my last couple of playthrough's aside from the times where it's impossible to succeed.

The only real problem with the system in TW2 is that it's never really made clear how it works. In games like KOTOR, you have a persuade skill, you level it up, if you fail a persuade then you know you needed a higher skill level and you can reload a save and try to shift skill points around or something. In The Witcher it's just never made clear what is actually effecting it, you can go to the page where it says about Axii Hex but that page is very basic and is tucked away and I don't recall finding it until like my Third+ playthrough.

I would absolutely love a system that you're describing, where you have multiple dialogue options and you have to actually think about what to say multiple times in order to finally persuade someone and it isn't just based on some skill, but most times that just adds way too much to a conversation that might not be feasible every time. Having a little "persuade" line is easy, whereas actually having multiple options and then having the follow-ups to those multiple options is a lot of work just for a very small thing, so to most Devs it's probably just too much of a hassle to include, and I assume that's why it isn't done like that most of the time. So with that in mind I think the system from TW2 was honestly totally fine, and I don't have a problem with it returning, hopefully it's just a little clearer as to where your "ability" is in persuade/hex/threaten.

Maybe something for CDPR to think about for Cyberpunk2077, but definitely not something they would have time to implement for TW3.

 

[Jimbob_2.1]

I see, so it actually levels up but it doesn't tell you. I wish i'd known that before. The problem with that system though is it encourages you to pick the same option everytime but i might want to start intimidating more later on for role playing purposes.

I understand taking it out is more work than simply changing it but it would add more realism to conversations which is worth it IMO. It doesn't even have to be that in-depth for everyone, for minor NPCs it could be just 2 or 3 lines that you choose from and you have to decide which one is best based on what you think that person is like. In fact, you could still use the persuasion intimidate in these situations except it would appear like an ordinary option.

But yeah, I do understand it's too late to be implemented in the Witcher 3 but I'd like to see what other people think of the system and if it's unpopular maybe CDPR will hold this in mind for future games.

 

[OliverDK]

For me having the system that was in TW2 seemed absolutely redundant and pointless. IMO it left you with the only option on just using AXII, intimidation, persuasion and so on and pick one and work that up until the worked every time, For me it's not role-playing, but just effecting the potential of a situation that when leveled always get you what you want.

I would much prefer it to be more role-playing where based on the situation you have to work out which way would work best given the circumstances. For example and for simplification with a priest it world properly be a good idea to seek a middle ground, while with a thug be more intimidating and so on. That way there actually has to go some thought into getting the best out of any situation. If we look at it more deeply then if you listen to the thug for example he could tell you that he was pressed into this way of living and he wish to return to a normal life and therefore intimidation wouldn't be the best approach but instead a more 'nice' way would maximize the situation and so on.

The 'perfect' scenario would of course be that you can play absolutely the way you want - good, neutral, evil - and most quests would play out differently depending on your choices and the world and it's people would either come to fear you or praise you or feel unsure. But that would be much to difficult to implement and it wouldn't work in The Wtcther universe anyway,

 

[Garrison72]

They could make the leveling mechanics behind it more transparent, so you have an idea of how well Axii or intimidation would work. I agree it was OP but I'd rather they develop the concept than trash it.

 

[Jimbob_2.1]

They could make the leveling mechanics behind it more transparent, so you have an idea of how well Axii or intimidation would work. I agree it was OP but I'd rather they develop the concept than trash it.

Why not just trash it? It's unnecessary. I think CDPR's writing, character development and animations are good enough that you could have a very good guess at the NPC's personalty and motives and use that to know what to say to them. The dialogues are looking and feeling so natural now, why hold it back with what is, IMO unnecessary hand holding.

Granted, it is nowhere near to the extent as in bioware games, with different symbols and colours telling you if your being good or bad. Conversations in the Witcher games have always had a very natural feel to them compared with other RPGs. And just to clarify it's not the way the system is used in the Witcher itself that i have problem with. it's the idea of it in a game at all.

 

[Mefris]

Personally I liked the AXI system.As with any game mechanic I can't say no to the devs making improvements but I would be very much against them removing this mechanic altogether.Having an alternative method to persuade someone other then using your "wits" or "charisma" was one of the things I enojoyed in games like Kotor,NN,TW2 etc

 

[frynse]

I think it's neat-o. It being luck based only really seemed to be the case for the first couple of times I used it. I would just savescum if it failed, and then for the rest of the game I never failed one.
Anyway, sure don't mind it still being there.

 

[Thothistox]

I liked the axii persuasion system in TW2. I thought that the situations in which you could use axii were perfectly appropriate for it--usually Geralt trying to calm some exasperated dolt. They were the sort of situations where trying to reason with such a person would not be very believable.

 

[adridu59]

Personally I liked the AXI system.

Same here. Also I like to not have it completely under your control, yes it can fail sometimes though the probability of it will depend on your skill.

 

[Pedrolago]

Geralt Jedi mind trick FWT!!!:victory:

 

[Mefris]

Geralt Jedi mind trick FWT!!!:victory:

 

[Jimbob_2.1]

Wow. I'm surprised so many people like the system. Oh well, as long as it's kept to very minor, characters it wont bother me to much i suppose. I'll admit that Jedi mind powers are cool and perhaps they have their place in the game. But only occasionally with street vendors or something, not with a quest right?

I get that people like it, fair enough. But what if you had a choice of a persuasion action (not axii) or different dialogue options one of which would convince the person of your argument, would you really pick persuasion? I mean, hypothetically if it was no harder to develop.

 

[OliverDK]

I don't get it why people like it as there was absolutely no point. In the beginning it was pure luck if it worked and after a while it worked all the time. What's the point then? To me it was just redundant and just needless few seconds animation that didn't change anything.

If you implement a system like that then at least have it mean something. As it was there wasn't even no real role-playing element to it. As mentioned by another you just end up with most gamers reloading and trying again until it works and when it's leveled up then it serves no other point that to prove Geralt has a Jedi mind trick up his sleeve.

Either give players a real alternative on the other hand where you can deduce yourself to what is the best approach in each situation- like in real life.

Or let the world and it's NPCs shape after what kind of charater you play. For example based on your past actions: prices go up or down based on the merchant opinion on you, different kind of armor becomes available based on the merchant opinion on you, people give/don't give you information, doors open and shuts in different areas and so on. This also gives high replay-value.

AXII could in the latter example be used if proper leveled up (if you put talents point in it for example - not like TW2) to manipulate merchant into better prices, other armor becomes available and so on.

 

[RedFire01]

I would like it to be a talent that you level up. That would fix all of these problems.

 

[Phinnway]

I'm really not a fan of using Axii sign during dialogue because it is an arbitrary way to lock story/content behind a skill. If you have leveled up Axii you will use it every chance you have. If you haven't then you're just screwed.

The only exception to this is when Axii is used to give you a morale choice. For example (spoilers for Witcher 2 Ch 1):

Spoiler

During the massacre of non-humans in Flotsam (only happens if you give Iorveth his sword) you can ignore the humans murdering non-humans, kill them, or use Axii to send them back to their homes.In this case Axii offers an alternative, nonviolent solution to the problem.

This still isn't a perfect example though because using Axii in this situation is the obvious moral choice. When one choice is obviously the moral one then there really isn't any choice at all. So on second thought maybe it's better if Axii was left out of dialogue completely.

 

[randyrhoads]

IMHO it should be like the force persuade in Kotor, a skill that you can put skill points in and it will never work on particular strong minded NPCs.