Factions and allying with them

[CTPhipps]

Factions and allying with them

There's a lot of interesting factions in Night City.

The megacorporations
The Cops (particularly the Psycho Squad)
Criminal organizations

Will our character, unlike Geralt, be a joiner?

I was wondering because I always wanted to play a corporate samurai character.

I remember my favorite experience with this sort of thing was Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines and later Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[Hoplite_22]

there is precisely zero information about game systems at this time.

 

[CTPhipps]

there is precisely zero information about game systems at this time.

You realize this is about speculating and hopes, right?

 

[Suhiira]

You realize this is about speculating and hopes, right?

Well I'll speculate maybe, and hope I'm right.

 

[kanonite]

I remember in that interview thread with Mike on these forums, he mentioned Arasaka has fractured into multiple groups.

 

[CTPhipps]

Well, when the Emperor dies, there's always a war.

I am expecting Braindance to be the Maguffin here, Like, footage of someone being murdered like in "Strange Days" which seems to be the basis for it.

Maybe we'll discover Braindancing gives you cancer and you have the option of covering it up or exposing them.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

More like outsider for hire, wouldn't go in expecting anything like in TES.
I would like to see some real gameplay benefits behind working for one, though...access to unique equipment, occasional back up, no parking tickets and so on.
And please no, you can work for everyone here.

 

[CTPhipps]

More like outsider for hire, wouldn't go in expecting anything like in TES.
I would like to see some real gameplay benefits behind working for one, though...access to unique equipment, occasional back up, no parking tickets and so on.
And please no, you can work for everyone here.

What's wrong with working for everybody? This is very much a genre about playing different factions against one another and not having any loyalties.

 

[Decatonkeil]

What's wrong with working for everybody? This is very much a genre about playing different factions against one another and not having any loyalties.

Factions and allegiances can be good for roleplay if there are consequences to siding with each. If we can work with literally everybody it can give the impression of being a game like GTA, where we don't define our character. I think that factions should fall into different sides of a political grid, with axes like corporate-anti-corporate, futurist-nostalgic, pro-cybernetization-anti-cybernetization, individualistic-community oriented... and so on and so forth.

Corporations won't like you if you're an anti-corporate activist.

 

[reidyboy102998]

I really like this concept. Backstabbing one faction over the other can be fun. But it could also go wrong like what Decatonkeil has said.

 

[CTPhipps]

True,

I hate to use the obvious element with Geralt but I did like how his neutral status in the setting gave him the opportunity to work with the Nilfgaardians, Redanians, Scoia'tael, Sorceresses, and more. There's obviously not going to be a call for monster hunting in Night City but there's perhaps an equivalent for off-the-grid mercenaries.

I am hoping it's more like Witcher 1 than Witcher 3, though.

Siding with the Scoi'atael versus the Order of the Flaming Rose had consequences but was a major part of the narrative. I really want the opportunity to become a corporate samurai type character and work with the police BUT ALSO would like to play a die hard anarchist character in a different playthrough.

It depends what the "personality" of the CyberProtag will be, I suppose and how much we can shape it.

 

[227]

The biggest problem with factions in games is that they rarely have any kind of believable entry requirement one would expect before they have a reason to trust you, and once you do join, you quickly feel like the only member (or at least the only one halfway competent) as they send you out to do their laundry and such before randomly proclaiming you their leader because the last one fell down a well putting on a sweater or something.

How great would it be if you don't join factions by walking through the front door and talking to someone, but have the available ones gated off based on your play style and choices without even knowing it? And even then, have to hunt them down and prove your loyalty in a way that comes with pros and cons that force you to consider whether it's worth the tradeoff? I mean, if some of these people are cutthroat like gangs, surely forcing you to do something unconscionable isn't a stretch.

Having something like that on top of paid jobs that come with no loyalty or allegiance beyond a pay check would be pretty great.

 

[Sardukhar]

Having something like that on top of paid jobs that come with no loyalty or allegiance beyond a pay check would be pretty great.

Also so that rising through the ranks isn't fast or easy and that with a few rare exceptions, you can never become Leader or even Right Hand Man. That takes years and connections and experiences the game can't offer you.

For example: Joe Pistone, when infiltrating the Mob in the 70s and 80s, was there for six years and they (the FBI) pulled him just before he was going to become a "made man", or a wiseguy. He's Italian, his cover was as a Jewel thief that had done time, he had connections. Still took six years of work just to get to the first significant rank.

And when you -do- go up in rank, the people that know should treat you differently. Some factions, (Police Detective) everyone should treat you differently.

 

[Suhiira]

Also so that rising through the ranks isn't fast or easy and that with a few rare exceptions, you can never become Leader or even Right Hand Man. That takes years and connections and experiences the game can't offer you.

For example: Joe Pistone, when infiltrating the Mob in the 70s and 80s, was there for six years and they (the FBI) pulled him just before he was going to become a "made man", or a wiseguy. He's Italian, his cover was as a Jewel thief that had done time, he had connections. Still took six years of work just to get to the first significant rank.

And when you -do- go up in rank, the people that know should treat you differently. Some factions, (Police Detective) everyone should treat you differently.

A certain amount of time compression (with regard to raising in ranks) I can understand since it is a game, and often time passes when you travel, sleep, whatever anyway. But to raise from initiate to boss is a bit much. Maybe from initiate to "trusted troubleshooter", still a flunky but one on their way up!

 

[CTPhipps]

The biggest problem with factions in games is that they rarely have any kind of believable entry requirement one would expect before they have a reason to trust you, and once you do join, you quickly feel like the only member (or at least the only one halfway competent) as they send you out to do their laundry and such before randomly proclaiming you their leader because the last one fell down a well putting on a sweater or something.

Honestly speaking, I think it depends on the game. Skyrim got a lot of criticism about the faction system it had and so did Fallout 4 but in Fallout: New Vegas, you joined factions but remained an independent contractor for them throughout with Caesar never proclaiming you his heir or anything.

How great would it be if you don't join factions by walking through the front door and talking to someone, but have the available ones gated off based on your play style and choices without even knowing it? And even then, have to hunt them down and prove your loyalty in a way that comes with pros and cons that force you to consider whether it's worth the tradeoff? I mean, if some of these people are cutthroat like gangs, surely forcing you to do something unconscionable isn't a stretch.

I think that would actually be kind of bad as you would get yourself blocked from your playstyle and ruin a lot of the fun of the game. What if you want to be a cowboy cop who blows up stuff or a dirty cop or a law-abiding or rules stickler cop? You're basically getting judged before you can actually play.

Having something like that on top of paid jobs that come with no loyalty or allegiance beyond a pay check would be pretty great.

I want to be able to join various factions in the game but build myself up in loyalty across the storyline to them.

Make the game have time passing like Witcher 3.

 

[CTPhipps]

My hope is basically something like V:TM: Bloodlines.

You have the option of multiple backstories but start in the same place and can join any faction.

 

[227]

I think that would actually be kind of bad as you would get yourself blocked from your playstyle and ruin a lot of the fun of the game. What if you want to be a cowboy cop who blows up stuff or a dirty cop or a law-abiding or rules stickler cop? You're basically getting judged before you can actually play.

Isn't that the "consequences" part of choice and consequences? Reactivity that jumps up and down and asks if you're super duper sure about every decision because it'll have X unpleasant effect will never cease to be artificial and needlessly game-y. Sure, it might be slightly inconvenient for those who want to game the system and try to squeeze everything from the game in a single playthrough, but I'd argue that defeats the point of a class-based RPG and should be avoided like the plague anyway.

And how did you get "before you can actually play" from "gated off based on play style"? I think a better question is why you feel that a group of cops should accept you if you blow random stuff up. Maybe there could be different groups in some factions to accommodate different play styles, but it's still weirdly (to borrow a favorite from Saladkkake's lexicon) entitled to expect them to accept you no matter what because you're the main character and the world must revolve around you thusly. Doesn't seem appropriate given the world, honestly.

 

[Odinsauge]

About the side with all factions or not dilemma: Why not side with all of them until it comes to a certain level of getting involved?
Like, as long as you do some basic level jobs for them they don't care for whom else you work but as soon as you get deeply involved in their shit you have to decide.
Gothic/Risen already had a similar approach, they always had 2 or 3 factions and you could start doing jobs for all of them but as soon as you join one group you cant join another one. I think Fall Out New Vegas had a similar approach, I can't remember. I only played it a little.

I would go even further. Why just choosing one faction? As lang as they don't have a conflict with another one it is ok, like the Mages in Skyrim don't care if you are also a companion. Being a Dark Brotherhood member and in the thieves guild? No.

This can even be a little bit more dynamic like a reputation system where you can do some dirty jobs for faction A although you worked for faction B before. This jobs increase your rep for A and decrease it for B. This works as long as you don't do anything critical like attacking A as a job from B.

 

[CTPhipps]

About the side with all factions or not dilemma: Why not side with all of them until it comes to a certain level of getting involved?
Like, as long as you do some basic level jobs for them they don't care for whom else you work but as soon as you get deeply involved in their shit you have to decide.
Gothic/Risen already had a similar approach, they always had 2 or 3 factions and you could start doing jobs for all of them but as soon as you join one group you cant join another one. I think Fall Out New Vegas had a similar approach, I can't remember. I only played it a little.

I would go even further. Why just choosing one faction? As lang as they don't have a conflict with another one it is ok, like the Mages in Skyrim don't care if you are also a companion. Being a Dark Brotherhood member and in the thieves guild? No.

This can even be a little bit more dynamic like a reputation system where you can do some dirty jobs for faction A although you worked for faction B before. This jobs increase your rep for A and decrease it for B. This works as long as you don't do anything critical like attacking A as a job from B.

I think that would be the best way to handle it.

Before the entire story collapsed under the weight of the fact they clearly didn't know what they were doing with it, Fallout 4 had the main campaign based around the idea of introducing you to all the various factions in the game so you had a clear idea about what everyone was about before you made any irreconcilable changes. Similarly, the main quest of the Witcher 3 allows you a pretty good series of encounters with Nilfgaard and the Redanian Army plus factions like Dijkstra as well as the Skelliges even though you never really CHOOSE per say.

Given the heavy emphasis on "Brain Dance" though and the fact it seems a pretty clear homage to "Strange Days" I'm perhaps overthinking this. Strange Days was a story about a guy who finds himself in possession of some incriminating memory-tapes against the LAPD tied together with a serial killer's snuff porn. There's a really rich guy implicated in it but it was never really a matter of factions. It was a matter of a guy trying to figure out who was involved with what.

 

[Sardukhar]

Isn't that the "consequences" part of choice and consequences?

Exactly. If you are going to have choice and consequences, you cannot do everything in-game. Nope. You make choices, they open up some things and lock off others. Witcher 2 and 3 did this, I expect CP to do the same.

About the side with all factions or not dilemma: Why not side with all of them until it comes to a certain level of getting involved?

This can even be a little bit more dynamic like a reputation system where you can do some dirty jobs for faction A although you worked for faction B before. This jobs increase your rep for A and decrease it for B. This works as long as you don't do anything critical like attacking A as a job from B.

This is totally cool and actually what Edgerunners ( word for most cyberpunk player characters) actually do. You can even push it too far if you hide it somehow.

That said, some things will instantly be a problem. You work for Arasaka on your first job, doing some online follow-up to a missing shipment, no big deal. You work for Arasaka on your first job and murder a Militech junior assistant VP getting off the 'train, real problem. You better either hide that or hope Arasaka didn't hire you just so they could shop you out.

Job discretion, REAL important part of the Street. Also really tough to learn.

Willowhugger The Strange Days thing is less about SD and more CDPR's interest in the Brain Dance, which of course massively predates the movie. By nearly a decade. More, if you realise the SD borrowed from several key cyberpunk concepts. So the 'Dance is well-known to anyone who played CP2020, which CDPR did, back in the day.