enough with the factions already. every game has it its been overdone already.
Willowhugger;n7554300 said:
true dont mind that. but taking side in gangs i dont like
Then don't.animalfather;n7554630 said:
Just because factions exist doesn't mean you have to side with one. Unless siding with one is plot centric ... and it shouldn't be. In FO4 yes you pretty much had to side with one of the major factions. but which one was entirely up to the player.
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Factions/gangs/corps should war against each other seriously. One of the coolest things in Fallout 2 was the random encounter where 2 groups fought against each other and the main character was caught in the middle.
I also liked random encounters between various factions, for example in the TES or more modern Fallout games. Always interesting.
Even better if you realize that in some of those games, the way I remember it anyway, the NPCs would not just spawn out of nowhere like in say, the GTA franchise, but originate from somewhere. They had a starting point, usually some faction turf of other civilized space (city, town) and would move out into the world, patrol, etc. And if you or someone else or something else took them out, they'd be gone (for a while).
A little excursion
This was enhanced upon in Skyrim in a mod called "Civil War Overhaul". Now I never really thoroughly tested it nor scanned the mod but just reading the info page about it was fascinating - not just because the author liked to have a goofy funny way of writing descriptions, I mean. If you know the vanilla or original version you probably realize it is kinda static and lame. There's a lot of talk in the world about the civil war, but it's mostly talk. There are, ultimately, a few locations that belong to either civil war faction and some of them can change over to the other side - but only if you trigger this as player through active quests. With this mod, after a certain point, each faction actively tries to fight for camps and other locations and can even capture and claim them even if the player doesn't do much to assist or prevent this actively.
The "original problem": The world doesn't change much on its own. There are probably a few reasons in favor of this. Giving the player more control, making sure the player does not miss certain content just by time as factor or not being somewhere, etc. But a living breathing world comes with a few potential downsides (or, advantages). That's the price of a living breathing dynamic world - you might have to go somewhere. Faction A holds it as you start this endeavor. But what if you did so earlier, what if you want to go there later? Another faction may be in control at that time. And that's what I would like to see to some extend in the game at least: a dynamic and changing world where certain groups (you might ally with or join) also fight for power and control over certain places.
Even better if you realize that in some of those games, the way I remember it anyway, the NPCs would not just spawn out of nowhere like in say, the GTA franchise, but originate from somewhere. They had a starting point, usually some faction turf of other civilized space (city, town) and would move out into the world, patrol, etc. And if you or someone else or something else took them out, they'd be gone (for a while).
A little excursion
This was enhanced upon in Skyrim in a mod called "Civil War Overhaul". Now I never really thoroughly tested it nor scanned the mod but just reading the info page about it was fascinating - not just because the author liked to have a goofy funny way of writing descriptions, I mean. If you know the vanilla or original version you probably realize it is kinda static and lame. There's a lot of talk in the world about the civil war, but it's mostly talk. There are, ultimately, a few locations that belong to either civil war faction and some of them can change over to the other side - but only if you trigger this as player through active quests. With this mod, after a certain point, each faction actively tries to fight for camps and other locations and can even capture and claim them even if the player doesn't do much to assist or prevent this actively.
The "original problem": The world doesn't change much on its own. There are probably a few reasons in favor of this. Giving the player more control, making sure the player does not miss certain content just by time as factor or not being somewhere, etc. But a living breathing world comes with a few potential downsides (or, advantages). That's the price of a living breathing dynamic world - you might have to go somewhere. Faction A holds it as you start this endeavor. But what if you did so earlier, what if you want to go there later? Another faction may be in control at that time. And that's what I would like to see to some extend in the game at least: a dynamic and changing world where certain groups (you might ally with or join) also fight for power and control over certain places.
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Yeah traditional factions might be tought in CP as everyone is kinda out for themselves. Some groups have built in faction (Nomands, Cops, Corps) but even those are limited, as not all of the same types get along (espcially Corps) IIRC, 2020 characters developed "Rep" basically street cred. But that could work against you trying to get jobs in "pleaseant society"
Also, in someways Rep is bad, as it means people know you were the one stole the new microradar assisted scope prototype from Arasaka, or lead the Jtown riot of '76 that destroyed 7 yakuza drug labs... Yeah I'm sure that wasn't me, must have been my cousin, who looks a lot like me...
Ultimately, maybe Rep will have to be NPC based. After all, Dave Whindam really doesn't want his fellow Corps to know about all the jobs you did for him. Still he could access Biotechna goodies for you as payment for a job well done.
Also, in someways Rep is bad, as it means people know you were the one stole the new microradar assisted scope prototype from Arasaka, or lead the Jtown riot of '76 that destroyed 7 yakuza drug labs... Yeah I'm sure that wasn't me, must have been my cousin, who looks a lot like me...
Ultimately, maybe Rep will have to be NPC based. After all, Dave Whindam really doesn't want his fellow Corps to know about all the jobs you did for him. Still he could access Biotechna goodies for you as payment for a job well done.
Suhiira;n7547790 said:
Try the "nom de pleur" : "Richard Cranium" to see if anyone gets it. "Dick Head is kind of obvious, don't you think?
Factions should play a part in PvP and who you fight against. Think Covenants from Dark Souls. For example, depending on which class you play, the consequences of your actions and the group you ally with and who might be against them. If you're a cop, you go after other players who are criminals, but if you're a dirty cop, you might also be hunted by good cops. Basically Classes have alignments within that class.
Metropolice;n9658591 said:
So you can only imagine what pop-culture references were in the error messages... But it still was reactive, not active. The enemy faction could launch counter-campaign after you lost a battle quest, so it was no longer START, +1 Hold, +2 Holds, +3 Holds, WIN questline, but rather going back and forth on a linear ladder: LOST, -3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3, WIN.
Even the Open Civil War mod, which does what you say, perform these kind of autonomous faction campaigns in small chunks and only after the player presses an "Auto" button in the UI menu. Though it's designed so mostly to avoid surprises and be able to evade bugs. The AI for this "Auto" campaigning is pretty much a simple greedy algorithm, but it's enough to produce somewhat randomized changes in ownership of the victory points.
Inspite of everything.... I wouldn't allow "joining" factions and "gaining ranks". Interactions, yes, but not "being a member". Just "mercenary" / "freeagent" work, gaining rep and approval (and varying levels of disapproval with opposing groups).
And even those interactions being governed by
- The chosen role (cops might need to perform extra to gain the trus of some gangers, and some might be completely lock a cop out of any interaction, similiarly a fixer might not be able to interact with lawmen, and so on).
- Reputation
- Past deeds (what've you done and with whom you've dealt with previously and how)
- Lifepath (yes, I would allow some choices to provide that harsh results, but while closing doors, they should also open ones elsewhere)
And even those interactions being governed by
- The chosen role (cops might need to perform extra to gain the trus of some gangers, and some might be completely lock a cop out of any interaction, similiarly a fixer might not be able to interact with lawmen, and so on).
- Reputation
- Past deeds (what've you done and with whom you've dealt with previously and how)
- Lifepath (yes, I would allow some choices to provide that harsh results, but while closing doors, they should also open ones elsewhere)
Factions are and interesting nest of worms.
Realistically you could work with, and have cred with, multiple factions, some of which may oppose each other.
BUT ... you're only going so far in any of them because you're not committing yourself to one cause or another.
AND ... opposing factions are always going to look at you with extreme suspicion because of your work with their opposition.
Yes, you can walk the tightrope, but one tiny misstep and it's a long fall.
Realistically you could work with, and have cred with, multiple factions, some of which may oppose each other.
BUT ... you're only going so far in any of them because you're not committing yourself to one cause or another.
AND ... opposing factions are always going to look at you with extreme suspicion because of your work with their opposition.
Yes, you can walk the tightrope, but one tiny misstep and it's a long fall.
Anybody here ever play the original Daggerfall? It's a buggy piece of work to be sure, but here's a scenario that happened to me with my latest character (yeah, I still play old games.)
I spent 30 minutes going through a character creation system that was SUSPICIOUSLY like the lifepath system in 2020... spent an hour getting out of the first cave because I forgot how unforgiving the combat can be. Immediately made my way to Daggerfall (the city) and stopped in the first shop I saw to pawn my garbo. The shop owner asked my name, and I told him, to which he immediately shouted THIEF, accused me of stealing a sapphire and called hired muscle on me. I barely survived that fight, but the ENTIRE city believed I was a thief, nobody would even give me the time of day. I was a bit annoyed at this, but decided to keep pressing on. Anyhoo, a couple shops later, I'm thinking "Hm. I really like this pair of steel gauntlets, I think I'll purchase them like a law abiding citizen and be on my way." Except, I accidentally clicked the "steal" option. Ironically, I was falsely accused of being a thief, everyone believed it, then I actually stole something, proving that I was. I was taken to court and wound up being exiled from the city, never to return on pain of death. By now, I'm totally pissed off, but hey, whatever I'll find something to do. A few raided tombs later, a courier gives me a letter that sparks the main story line. The lady asks me to meet her in a tavern, and I've played before, it randomly picks one in the province of Daggerfall. It just so happened to be located in the CITY of Daggerfall. So to sum it up, I spent a chunk of time getting to Daggerfall, got kicked out of Daggerfall, to have to return to Daggerfall to progress the main story, which I am basically locked out o completing now.
Sounds awful doesn't it? Is that really the kind of system you want, where a careless introduction using your real name blocks you from the MAIN STORY?
HELL YEAH, I want it! I've never had a more memorable thing happen to me in a game, and after the pissed-off ragey-ness subsided, I can't help but laugh about the whole thing and keep playing.
I want factions to be like that in CB. I want to have to seriously consider my actions. It makes the game infinitely more interesting if I can't do everything and obtain everything.
I spent 30 minutes going through a character creation system that was SUSPICIOUSLY like the lifepath system in 2020... spent an hour getting out of the first cave because I forgot how unforgiving the combat can be. Immediately made my way to Daggerfall (the city) and stopped in the first shop I saw to pawn my garbo. The shop owner asked my name, and I told him, to which he immediately shouted THIEF, accused me of stealing a sapphire and called hired muscle on me. I barely survived that fight, but the ENTIRE city believed I was a thief, nobody would even give me the time of day. I was a bit annoyed at this, but decided to keep pressing on. Anyhoo, a couple shops later, I'm thinking "Hm. I really like this pair of steel gauntlets, I think I'll purchase them like a law abiding citizen and be on my way." Except, I accidentally clicked the "steal" option. Ironically, I was falsely accused of being a thief, everyone believed it, then I actually stole something, proving that I was. I was taken to court and wound up being exiled from the city, never to return on pain of death. By now, I'm totally pissed off, but hey, whatever I'll find something to do. A few raided tombs later, a courier gives me a letter that sparks the main story line. The lady asks me to meet her in a tavern, and I've played before, it randomly picks one in the province of Daggerfall. It just so happened to be located in the CITY of Daggerfall. So to sum it up, I spent a chunk of time getting to Daggerfall, got kicked out of Daggerfall, to have to return to Daggerfall to progress the main story, which I am basically locked out o completing now.
Sounds awful doesn't it? Is that really the kind of system you want, where a careless introduction using your real name blocks you from the MAIN STORY?
HELL YEAH, I want it! I've never had a more memorable thing happen to me in a game, and after the pissed-off ragey-ness subsided, I can't help but laugh about the whole thing and keep playing.
I want factions to be like that in CB. I want to have to seriously consider my actions. It makes the game infinitely more interesting if I can't do everything and obtain everything.
BjornTheBandit;n9691531 said:
Very much agreed, with the whole post. That sounded so much fun that I might have to do a replay of Daggerfall some of these days.
The factions worked somewhat similiarly in Morrowind too.
I also would not mind that not just picking a faction can lock you out of things (assuming the person or other faction you interact with also KNOWS this or can plainly see or find out quickly) but certain actions as described above.
It gives it all a "well, that's life... you know where the reload button is if nothing else helps" vibe. On the other hand, I'd find it useful to have obtainable (even if hard) "ways out" whenever it seems logical because that could strike a good compromise between the "hardcore" players and a more casual crowd while still keeping it all believable and so on. But this would depend on the situation and severity. As there's too many things to think of I can only really keep it rough and general.
In other words, sometimes choices should lead to permanent outcomes that cannot be fixed (for the rest of the game or a major portion of it) and in other cases there should be ways out, like paying a high tribute if you did some crime, etc or working for a group that you pissed off to slowly gain positive reputation.
I'll not worry about it too much, I'm certain the game will be sufficient in that regard.
It gives it all a "well, that's life... you know where the reload button is if nothing else helps" vibe. On the other hand, I'd find it useful to have obtainable (even if hard) "ways out" whenever it seems logical because that could strike a good compromise between the "hardcore" players and a more casual crowd while still keeping it all believable and so on. But this would depend on the situation and severity. As there's too many things to think of I can only really keep it rough and general.
In other words, sometimes choices should lead to permanent outcomes that cannot be fixed (for the rest of the game or a major portion of it) and in other cases there should be ways out, like paying a high tribute if you did some crime, etc or working for a group that you pissed off to slowly gain positive reputation.
I'll not worry about it too much, I'm certain the game will be sufficient in that regard.
Yeah, I've always hated the "hive knowledge" most games employ as a mechanic.Metropolice;n9696481 said:
You steal an apple and everyone in the city instantly starts yelling "thief".
It wouldn't be at all hard to incorporate a mechanic where your faction status radiates outward from your current location.
Say it's on a 1-100 scale, every minute of gameplay 1 point of faction change radiates outward one space unit (whatever the game uses for this, probably Cartesian coordinates). Eventually everyone in the city will know you stole that apple, but not instantly.
You could even include that differences between your actual faction status and the status reacted to by NPCs diminishes over distance.
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I just had a good chuckle at the thought of town guards scurrying about like ants. I wonder if someone killed the queen...Suhiira;n9697481 said: