Vicovaro Medic + Blue Mountain Commando Issues

[Evilknievel82]

Vicovaro Medic + Blue Mountain Commando Issues

Vicaro medic is a too strong counter to any deck using blue mountain commando. You can easily chain play up to 5 cards by reviving one blue mountain commando after another. You gain a combined power of 2 (medic) + 4 + 4 +4 + 8 (basic value for bronze) what gives 22 power from 1 bronze cards in the second or third round. If you revive an elven mercenary last you may even get a rally and pump the total values to over 30. Sorry, that is just bad balancing and resembles the same chains that were nerfed away from ST and NR in the last patch.

You almost auto-loose against Nilfgaard if you have any blue mountain commandos right now... had 5 games in the last days against NR where the opponent basically robbed my graveyard clean in round 2 or 3 with this and I of course lost because of it. It's not like ST has that many strategies left and most are centered around BMC.

 

[4RM3D]

You could make the Medic relentless to fix the problem. But that would be like killing a mosquito with a flamethrower... the mosquito is quite dead, so is pretty much everything else nearby. Ahem, it would be overkill for such a fringe case. Do you have any other suggestions to fix this problem?

 

[Rawls]

Maybe give BMC's permadeath? ST doesn't rez anyway so the status wouldn't hurt them. Would effect NG and Monsters though. May also be overkill.

 

[4RM3D]

Maybe give BMC's permadeath?

That's better than my initial solution to make Medic relentless. Though, still too much overkill. And it would be kinda weird because, like you've said, ST cannot ress units.

 

[thalnor]

But I thought using Flamethrowers and Nukes on Mosquitos was the totally hip thing to do?

As I see it, the problem will simply change from using BMCs to pull all the BMCs from the ST graveyard to using Mercs to draw out all the First Lights from the NG deck, to pull more Vicovaros to drag out more Mercs, in essence using the thing that Mercs were made Relentless to prevent. Similar thing happens also with Reaver Scouts and Vicovaros; pull one scout, drag another vico from deck, pull another scout, and so on so forth.

Making Vicos Relentless only solves one corner case, whereas there are plenty of other corner cases out there that result in the same 20+ strength in one turn in perfect conditions. Only real way of dealing with the 'problem' is to start banishing more cards to make sure they can't be stolen. In fact, if Reaver Scouts, Mercs, and BMCs became fleeting, it would solve the corner case quite handily...

 

[Evilknievel82]

Maybe give BMC's permadeath? ST doesn't rez anyway so the status wouldn't hurt them. Would effect NG and Monsters though. May also be overkill.

You could make the Medic relentless to fix the problem. But that would be like killing a mosquito with a flamethrower... the mosquito is quite dead, so is pretty much everything else nearby. Ahem, it would be overkill for such a fringe case. Do you have any other suggestions to fix this problem?

Hmmm well for the Caretaker the BMC is no problem because you cannot chain anything. The vicaro can still revive enough other usefull units so I do not see any problem making the BMC permadeath. That would block the chain effectively without nerfing the BMC itself for ST. Making the Vicaro relentless would block the use of decoy on the vicaro and that is unnecessary.

 

[4RM3D]

In fact, if Reaver Scouts, Mercs, and BMCs became fleeting, it would solve the corner case quite handily...

You've made an interesting case. But I dislike the idea of banishing (too many) cards, especially Scouts because NR can also ress (and should be able to). Banishing cards will also have indirect consequences for things like the NR medic (less card in GY = less random) and Monster GY consume (same reason as NR).

 

[thalnor]

You've made an interesting case. But I dislike the idea of banishing (too many) cards, especially Scouts because NR can also ress (and should be able to). Banishing cards will also have indirect consequences for things like the NR medic (less card in GY = less random) and Monster GY consume (same reason as NR).

It does have indirect consequences. In this particular case, you can't use the NR medic to potentially pull more medics from the deck if you get a Scout on accident when you were looking for a Tower. The question is: why should one faction have chain pulls from the deck, whereas others are restricted from doing that?

With regards to Monster Consume, to me it only really affects Ghouls; every other graveyard consume gives you the choice of consumption, which would allow people to skip over the Scout anyways.

 

[arz0]

I'm inclined to agree with Rawls. making BMC permadeath is probably the is simplest solution without affecting ST in anyway.
Caretaker would lose a target, which is the only slight downside I see.

 

[Evilknievel82]

I'm inclined to agree with Rawls. making BMC permadeath is probably the is simplest solution without affecting ST in anyway.
Caretaker would lose a target, which is the only slight downside I see.

Which is not really a downside as there are almost no monster units that benefit sufficiently from being played again by BMC. Caretaker usually grabs a silver or a demoted gold card for much better value...

 

[arz0]

Which is not really a downside as there are almost no monster units that benefit sufficiently from being played again by BMC. Caretaker usually grabs a silver or a demoted gold card for much better value...

True, caretaker is usually reserved for silvers and similar. But I have seen caretaker used to take a BMC, bounce a griffin, to steal a special, something caretaker alone cant do. and while not amazingly powerful, still a neat little combo against ST IMO.

 

[DMaster2]

I don't see any problem really. They got a BMC chain, so what? Isn't what you ST player do already?

 

[JoachimDeWett]

Me neither, you get countered if you bounce stuff too agressively, I don't see the issue really

 

[frbfree]

BMC players don't get to complain about Vicovaro Medics.

Unless of course they are willing to give up BMC's ability to bounce a Cow Carcass. You take the good with the bad.

 

[Codexhel]

I only run 1 BMC (it's a utility card anyway, it makes rally pretty awkward at times), but even then I try to hold BMC for R3 if possible to stop the chain.

 

[Tamacountry13]

Having your Queensguard or buffed Skirmisher is ALOT worse then having your BMC's stolen...

 

[arz0]

The reason this is viewed as an issue is because its analogous to a medic resurrection chain. Which is exactly why medics were made permadeath in the first place.

In a previous patch you could play a priestess into a priestess into a priestess, and then the unit you wanted to resurect. There was no reason not to do this, because you get free strength in the process.
so as a result medics first got the 'medic' tag, and then later on under the permadeath tag.

in this scenario it's almost like you are resurrecting a 4 strength vicovaro medic each time. And once again there is no reason not to do this, if the option comes up you take it every single time. You basically get 4/8/12 free strength in the process, and then the unit you finally wanted.

It's a resurrection chain, just involving a different combo of cards.

IMO, this should be looked at, because it's an inconstancy with the game. If normal resurrection chains are not possible due to the permadeath tag, then I don't see why this should not have a restriction on it as well.

 

[DMaster2]

IMO, this should be looked at, because it's an inconstancy with the game. If normal resurrection chains are not possible due to the permadeath tag, then I don't see why this should not have a restriction on it as well.

Because BMC is not a Nilf card.

 

[Sargarth]

I believe you are mistaking res chain from your own graveyard and res chain from opponents graveyard. When you can chain res from your own graveyard you can do it very consistently: you control what's in your graveyard and you control your deck to make it possible. The BMC-VM chain is VERY different: you get this chain only vs ST who play BMC and it's still ST player who controls his graveyard so you can maybe pull this combo in like 1 out of 20-30 games and that's definitely too situational to be considered OP. And even when this combo is pulled off -> it's just 12 str max, it's not that much.
Oh, and dont forget that VM is literally useless in matchups against NR and Monsters as they dont have any good revive targets.

 

[Evilknievel82]

I believe you are mistaking res chain from your own graveyard and res chain from opponents graveyard. When you can chain res from your own graveyard you can do it very consistently: you control what's in your graveyard and you control your deck to make it possible. The BMC-VM chain is VERY different: you get this chain only vs ST who play BMC and it's still ST player who controls his graveyard so you can maybe pull this combo in like 1 out of 20-30 games and that's definitely too situational to be considered OP. And even when this combo is pulled off -> it's just 12 str max, it's not that much.
Oh, and dont forget that VM is literally useless in matchups against NR and Monsters as they dont have any good revive targets.

Uhm,no. As I said I experienced this in 5 games in about 3 days. Furthermore it is not a problem of how often it happens, it is simply inconsistent.

And what is "controlling your own graveyard" even supposed to mean in this context? ST decks that run BMC either live of replaying Vrihedd Dragoons to buff a unit in the hand or they replay Vrihedd Vanguard. It is absolutely necessary to play as many units as you can and especially use all BMC till round 3 so you have your endgame setup (usually either ele`yas or toruviel). In round 3 the BMC need to be in the graveyard or you will never reach round 3.