Based on my experience playing a ST ambush deck (which I do regularly for I love ST) is, contrary to the belief of some people in this topic, a mind game with a little bit of spice. There were so many situations in close round games that I've had where i played sappers or Ciaran in such a position where at first a person would think it is Toruviel and continue to add more power in the mix where I've decided to already lose the round (usually the second one). Oh I love watching them struggle to figure out what ambush card it is.
Playing a ST ambush deck is like fishing really. You throw in the bait, be patient, and see if the fish bites. If it does, well, it's not gonna have a very nice time in the aftermath.
Talking about counters to such a deck, it's really helpful to have weather effects. That's why I find Monster decks the most difficult to fight against. In addition to that, getting rid of Dragoons immediately and not letting them get replayed by a Commando will severely hurt the effects of the buffs, therefore rendering the prepared ambush cards for round 2/3 useless. Usually it's quite negative to have more than one or two at most Dragoons in your starting hand since there are more useful cards to have so removing them is useful.
I feel like the biggest thing to secure a win condition of such a deck is removal, mainly during the first, and then the third round. The buffs and other cards which are not ambush during the first round are like a delay or power fodder to see what the opponent plays and then drop a surprisingly huge amount of removal during the first round to secure a win. I find that a win in the first round is a necessity and if that can be taken from a ST ambush player (at least in my case) it is quite a severe blow and it's hard to come back from.
Now when talking about the ambush strategy in general and the relevant cards it is strong in my opinion, but not without its drawbacks. Simply because of the gamble and unpredictability of the outcome when playing such cards. If someone is using the deck to abuse the fact that ambush cards can not be affected by lock/D-bomb/ect. mechanics it makes that much more predictable and counter-able if correct cards are in place to be used. People unfortunately very easily go to conclusions without first thinking about possible things that could have been done to prevent it.
Sorry for the wall of text.
TL/DR - I love playing ambush decks and watching people struggle.
Playing a ST ambush deck is like fishing really. You throw in the bait, be patient, and see if the fish bites. If it does, well, it's not gonna have a very nice time in the aftermath.
Talking about counters to such a deck, it's really helpful to have weather effects. That's why I find Monster decks the most difficult to fight against. In addition to that, getting rid of Dragoons immediately and not letting them get replayed by a Commando will severely hurt the effects of the buffs, therefore rendering the prepared ambush cards for round 2/3 useless. Usually it's quite negative to have more than one or two at most Dragoons in your starting hand since there are more useful cards to have so removing them is useful.
I feel like the biggest thing to secure a win condition of such a deck is removal, mainly during the first, and then the third round. The buffs and other cards which are not ambush during the first round are like a delay or power fodder to see what the opponent plays and then drop a surprisingly huge amount of removal during the first round to secure a win. I find that a win in the first round is a necessity and if that can be taken from a ST ambush player (at least in my case) it is quite a severe blow and it's hard to come back from.
Now when talking about the ambush strategy in general and the relevant cards it is strong in my opinion, but not without its drawbacks. Simply because of the gamble and unpredictability of the outcome when playing such cards. If someone is using the deck to abuse the fact that ambush cards can not be affected by lock/D-bomb/ect. mechanics it makes that much more predictable and counter-able if correct cards are in place to be used. People unfortunately very easily go to conclusions without first thinking about possible things that could have been done to prevent it.
Sorry for the wall of text.
TL/DR - I love playing ambush decks and watching people struggle.
Sure - ambush is a fun mechanic that should spice up the game a little by forcing difficult decisions upon your opponent. However, it is still unpolished in its current state (which is fine, since we are in closed beta). There are probably 2 main reasons that make it not difficult, but sometimes depressing for the opposing player - Dragoons and Agility. I hardly disagree that removal alone is the solution to counter ST players from hand stacking. Apart from Iorveth, Venon Roche and Wild Boar of the Sea (which are all golds), you always create a -4 for yourself. The concept of strengthening your hand cards which are invisible to the opponent is simply bad design, because it gives you no counter-play. The second reason why ambush is problematic is the fact that all of them are agile, which drastically limits your opponents options to foresee what card you played (the new Sapper made it even worse). Ambush cards should reward the skilled opponent for its correct assessment of the situation. For that, I would remove 'agile' from all ambush cards, but Toruviel.TLDR Ambush is a flawed and unpolished mechanic, but only little changes are needed to make it viable, but less depressing. We are still in closed beta and I am very optimistic. Expect changes to come, because ST crushes ladder right now.
Exactly. To counter Ambush, win round 1 and press hard in round 2 until they are forced to part with their buffed unit.RemerRed;n8311460 said:
Ninschi;n8312730 said:
I never meant to say that removal is the only viable counter to ST ambush decks. The removal is mainly for the dragoon units to stop the loop of power hoarding. Additionally you must be aware that the units which were empowered will be used in later rounds and you will have to deal with few albeit powerful cards in one way or another. Too many times have I played against people who disregard the cards in another players hand without a second thought.
Ninschi;n8312730 said:
I agree that this does not have a direct counter during the first rounds where all you can do is watch as the ST player charges up his units for the final round. However, as I previously mentioned, no one is stopping you from being thoughtful and knowingly being aware of the potential danger of empowered cards in the opposing players hand. That way you know how to deal with the problem since the empowered cards at this point of time are guaranteed to be Ciaran/Sapper/Toruviel.
Ninschi;n8312730 said:
This I kind of have a problem with. Isn't the whole point of ST (we're mainly talking about the elven part of the community) that they are stealthy little buggers who don't like approaching danger directly and are, as the nature of elves generally is, extremely agile and nimble? If you look at the dwarves of ST in game, they do not really have the same mechanics behind them. Most of them are tough, powerful front-liners who don't meddle in stealth. But that's just lore or whatever, lets ignore that and make the units as generic as possible with no special quirks to them.
Ninschi;n8312730 said:
For the final point, yes the ambush mechanic is unpolished and flawed here and there since it's only a closed beta, but at this point the only thing that people find overpowered, because they forget they have the option of dealing with it, is the combo of Dragoon + Ciaran/Sapper/Toruviel. Besides this, I guess there also exists Schirru, but i haven't had any experience with him whatsoever.
Note: I realize my point of view is sort of bias since I like ST, sorry.
RemerRed First - thanks for the reply. I always enjoy constructive discussions.
I don't get your first point, but I agree that removal is not the only / best way of dealing with dragoons. The thing I wanted to point out is the loss of value you generate by card like alzurs thunder. Imo the best way of defeating ambush is weather, but keeping Ca Isis often difficult due to ST passive. Being thoughtful and clever in facing ST is actually the point I want to focus on. However, ST leaves you little to no room for that in its current state. I disagree that design have to serve the lore behind the cards. Ambush itself is already sneaky and elvish. Imo design and functionality is more important for the game. Agility can be kept for non ambush cards.
I don't get your first point, but I agree that removal is not the only / best way of dealing with dragoons. The thing I wanted to point out is the loss of value you generate by card like alzurs thunder. Imo the best way of defeating ambush is weather, but keeping Ca Isis often difficult due to ST passive. Being thoughtful and clever in facing ST is actually the point I want to focus on. However, ST leaves you little to no room for that in its current state. I disagree that design have to serve the lore behind the cards. Ambush itself is already sneaky and elvish. Imo design and functionality is more important for the game. Agility can be kept for non ambush cards.
Ninschi;n8324450 said:
I agree that during that round you do lose a tiny bit of value (only like -2 if focusing on the dragoons) but in longterm you deny ST power that they otherwise could have easily gotten.
I've had a few mirror matches where both were ST ambush decks. Both of us tried to gain the power advantage in our hands and the tactic which I usually employ is to shoot down his only Dragoon. He however did not stop me from replaying my own creatures. Based on my hand I usually secure a win during the first round and the result of my actions earlier led to him only having a sapper with power 12 where as I had one with power 20 or 24 which simply means victory.
Now that I think about it, ambush decks are very similar to some other decks which rely on storing power in their graveyard/hand. A lot of people complain that you can not do anything about the empowered hands in their hands which are hidden, but does that not stand true for other decks which use a similar methods to secure a win?
No, it's actually not -2 vs dragoons, because you miss the +4 hand stack that the opponent still gets. The loss of value is comparable to dshackles, when you trade the resource of a card for one cards added effect whilst the opponent keeps its base power (I don't intend to say that this trade-off is not often worth it, depending on the cancelled effect). Evaluating your removal based on potentially denied power is difficult, because you as the opponent don't have enough information to correctly assess that (how many blue mountain commandos does he pay? How many has he in hand? How many dragoons did he draw?), which is a general symptom of ambush. Don't get me wrong, ambush is not the culprit, but the opponent needs at least a slight clue about the actual power and identity of your card. That is also the main difference to yard or board stacking, because your opponent has enough detailed information to correctly react. Ambush is different. So your opp played dragoon followed by an ambush. Is it toruviel? Oh, than you should contest hard. Is it an unbuffed ciaran? Well then the same pay leads you to a certain loss. How can you know whether its toruviel or ciaran? You can't
The pricinple that I found helpful is that you go for the round win if it was an unbuffed ambush, but lose the round if it's the buffed ambush. You usually can't prevent the ST player to take the round when he decides to use his buffed card. But the game is 3 rounds.Ninschi;n8327370 said:
As a corollary, when playing ambush myself, I try to spread my buffs.
Btw I concur that with a control-enabled deck the opponent's dragoons should be the primary target for insta-kill. It's funny see them play their 4str BMC's into an empty battlefield. No point saving the Alzur or Braenn or Myrg or Rot Tosser for something better - you won't be able use them on a face-down Ambush later in the game.
But isn't that basically the essence of the problem? You can't interact; you can't use your removal on the cards that matter? This would be acceptable, if the power you hide from your opponent is around 8, but we see sappers going up to 32 power! No igni or scorch is going to save you. The level of interaction is 0.
Regarding your first point, aint that toxic as well? if the decision of who takes r1 belongs to the st player alone?
Regarding your first point, aint that toxic as well? if the decision of who takes r1 belongs to the st player alone?
Ninschi;n8332300 said:
They can even double the buffed card in hand with operator and be sure the opponents buffed sapper will be scorched or removed by Morenn since ST has the faction ability to decide who starts last round first. You would need CA against them to put down this card safely but usually you don't get it.
People defending this nonsense are usually ST players themselves who don't care HOW they win their games. It's just about easily winning and beeing high ranked for them. No matter how ridiculous this actually is.
Last edited:
ST Ambush cards have an unfair advantage
There should be a counter attack for the ambush cards. ST can fill their board up with ambush cards and we have no way of defending/countering it. Yes, I understand they are ambush cards for a reason, however it is a huge advantage for ST and in no way does it balance out with the other factions.
There should be a counter attack for the ambush cards. ST can fill their board up with ambush cards and we have no way of defending/countering it. Yes, I understand they are ambush cards for a reason, however it is a huge advantage for ST and in no way does it balance out with the other factions.
Watch merchant's ambush video --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHwFjDnTJmQ
Guys, I found the best counter to ambush. I started playing Scoiatel and have Morenn in my deck. hahahahah
hahahahahVoodoocaster13 your comment doesn't relate to my post. Shackles and D-bomb can counter the gold cards, however there is NOTHING set up to counter or defend against the ambush cards. If you know of a counter attack or defensive strategy for the ambush cards, please share.