Elven Nihilism

[Blothulfur]

Elven Nihilism

Big horrible spoilers with hot sauce and chilli's ahead.

I've not read the books (two english ones on order) only played the first two games but from what i'm seeing the vast majority of elvendom in the witchers world seem to take a kind of grim satisfaction from playing the victim, obviously there are exceptions such as Iorveth who are actually seeking to tackle the extinction of their race but the majority of characters such as Yaevinn seem to welcome their coming martyrdom and embrace it rather than work towards any kind of solution.

This becomes all the more apparent when compared to their non human compatriots the dwarves in Vergen and elsewhere who often times seem to be thriving in conditions the elves deem to be unacceptable, even Cedric plays a valued part in his community and is a model for integration rather than the violent segregation that the squirrels seek. Is this melodramatic longing for their doom a common elven ailment or have they been driven to this by being ousted as top dogs by the humans?

I read somewhere that the elves were busily indulging in genocide against the dwarves before mankind happened upon their shores and the extermination of the Vran that Roches alludes to when you reach Loc Muinne might also be their doing. Is this true and if so what does this identical behaviour to humankinds savagery say of their "noble" struggle, are they seeking to take the world down with them rather than let anyone else rule in the land that should be theirs or are they merely having trouble adjusting to a lost empire and a whole new identity?

 

[Dona.794]

I read somewhere that the elves were busily indulging in genocide against the dwarves before mankind happened upon their shores and the extermination of the Vran that Roches alludes to when you reach Loc Muinne might also be their doing. Is this true and if so what does this identical behaviour to humankinds savagery say of their "noble" struggle, are they seeking to take the world down with them rather than let anyone else rule in the land that should be theirs or are they merely having trouble adjusting to a lost empire and a whole new identity?

It's not true, Iorveth clears it up when you enter Loc Muinne with him. The climate changed, which drove Vrans closer to human settlements where they caught a bunch of illnesses (typhus, dysentery and pneumonia are mentioned) and died. Elves had nothing to do with it, they just inhabited the abandoned city and re-built it.

I don't know anything about the dwarves, however.

 

[Blothulfur]

Makes sense considering the gradual approach of the white frost, what I wondered when I heard that is whether Iorveth is old enough to have witnessed this or is he passing on someone elses story, possibly a conquering elven story to shift guilt away from themselves. But without evidence i'd have to go with Iorveths explanation as it's the more likely.

 

[chiefje]

Elves have become desperate, they lost everything. Humans kept on gaining ground, and elves kept retreating, hoping that the humans would go away if they waited long enough.

Every time the elves left a city, the humans took it and built their own city on top of it. So the next time the elves left a city, they destroyed it before the humans could inhabit it. Then one Aelireann, decided to fight the humans for the second time. The (young) elves got slaughtered.
And the older elves who didn't want to fight, are too old to get children.
Their race is dying. Iorveth says something about this, when you ask him if he has been to the valley of the flowers. He calls it the valley of the sterile elders.

Spoiler

For anyone who read the last book, did you also read something about elves leaving to another world?. It is told by Nimue I think.

 

[Kindo.824]

It's not true, Iorveth clears it up when you enter Loc Muinne with him. The climate changed, which drove Vrans closer to human settlements where they caught a bunch of illnesses (typhus, dysentery and pneumonia are mentioned) and died. Elves had nothing to do with it, they just inhabited the abandoned city and re-built it.

I don't know anything about the dwarves, however.

But this is up for interpretation, if you ask me. Roche says one thing (that there were reptilian bodies pierced with arrows - no illness had claimed those etc.) in order to create some bad rep for the "sanctimonious" elves, and Iorveth spins it around in the other direction, where humans are to blame. I always interpreted this as people having different theories on what really happened, coloured by their own values and morals. To me it makes sense that someone like Roche (and most humans) would assume the elves eradicated them, while Iorveth and any other elf, would claim that they had never been so bloodthirsty, in order to maintain their glorified veneer, and instead stick to the story that the vrans died out from diseases humans brought with them. It all feels like propaganda, to me, on both sides; and it doesn't mean either is lying intentionally - it's just what stories they've been told as they were growing up, basically. It's one of those amazing details I love about this game; two sides of a coin, and you only get to inspect both if you make a different choice at the end of Chapter 1, and neither side is the "obvious" truth. They both might carry a bit of truth with them, or neither.

 

[Dona.794]

True :] It's most likely a bit of both, illness and elven arrows.

Now I'm curious about that story about dwarves, I've never heard it. Is it something from the novels?

 

[Blothulfur]

I can't for the life of me remember where I heard that about the dwarves Dona, what intrigues me though is why the elves aren't flocking to the two states where they are supposedly free in the blue mountains and the valley of flowers. I can understand that the living may be hard in the blue mountains and that the Nilfgaardian protectorate might be unwelcoming of squirrels but the common elf who's having to suffer pogroms and purges in what are now human lands surely would welcome the chance of cultivating land and working for their own advancement in realms ruled by their own kind.

Hard work and long hours it may be in bringing life to these lands but humans are surviving in hard lands and dwarves seem to thrive in the most desolate of locales, yet the elven youths seem to have a hankering for death in battle over raising families and being part of a community. Do they see these havens as doomed to fall to the humans too, are they stubbornly refusing to surrender lands that were once theirs or do they see danger in gathering in one land where the massed armies of mankind can strike at them with finality?

Of course the beauty of this is like much of the witcher world, it's people being people and repeating the same mistakes over and again while the winter of the world descends.

 

[Vermeer]

[...]the vast majority of elvendom in the witchers world seem to take a kind of grim satisfaction from playing the victim[...]

I would not say that they play. Actually, they are victims, among many others.

[...]exceptions such as Iorveth who are actually seeking to tackle the extinction of their race[...]

Are you sure that's what he is doing? I doubt Iorvet's actions are directed to the salvation of his race, in fact, I believe he is convinced his people are condemned to perish at the end. At the moment he is at an impasse; the scoia'tael are no longer Nilfgaard's allies, are still pursued in the Northern kingdoms, and Dol Blathanna can't bring them political asylum despite being an elven country. So, the hypotetical Free Pontar Valley is their only option to survive, not the elven race, but the scoia'tael themselves.

the majority of characters such as Yaevinn seem to welcome their coming martyrdom and embrace it rather than work towards any kind of solution.

I think there is no solution for them. They'll just mix up with humans and/or disappear.

This becomes all the more apparent when compared to their non human compatriots the dwarves in Vergen and elsewhere who often times seem to be thriving in conditions the elves deem to be unacceptable.

They are right: the conditions are unacceptable. Non humans are not permitted to enter guilds, pay extra taxes, are expulsed from their lands and kept in reservations, not to mention pogroms and mass lynchings.

[...]the violent segregation that the squirrels seek.[...]

That is very arguable.

 

[username_2071161]

True :] It's most likely a bit of both, illness and elven arrows.

Now I'm curious about that story about dwarves, I've never heard it. Is it something from the novels?

If I remember correctly then in the book "Blood of elves" Yarpen Zigrin said that now the elves say they are friends with dwarves, but in the past (before the humans arrived) the dwarves often had to run to hide from elven arrows, or something like that. And that the elves are not native to the witcher´s world. They came there from another world just like humans.

BOOK SPOILERS FOLLOW



Also there is another world ruled by elves, where they commited genocide against humans and the surviving humans are elven slaves there now. These elves can travel to the witcher´s world, but they can appear there only as specters - the wild hunt. The king of the hunt is an elf actually. They lost the power to travel between the worlds long ago. They want to gain this power back. That´s why they de facto briefly imprisoned Ciri in the books and it was probably the reason, why the king of the hunt wanted the grandmaster´s soul in Witcher 1 (Alvin possesed the same power as Ciri did).

 

[username_2071161]

I can't for the life of me remember where I heard that about the dwarves Dona, what intrigues me though is why the elves aren't flocking to the two states where they are supposedly free in the blue mountains and the valley of flowers. I can understand that the living may be hard in the blue mountains and that the Nilfgaardian protectorate might be unwelcoming of squirrels but the common elf who's having to suffer pogroms and purges in what are now human lands surely would welcome the chance of cultivating land and working for their own advancement in realms ruled by their own kind.

Nilfgaard forbid the queen of the Valley of Flowers to accept the Squirrels in order to force them to continue to fight humans. That was the price for the creation of the Valley of Flowers kingdom, which was formed after the battle of Brenna if I remember correctly.

 

[Blothulfur]

That's tremendously illuminating Gilad, so the old conquerers are being conquered. Casts the entire struggle for freedom in a whole new light.

I think Iorveth does change somewhat if you follow his path Ver Meer and though a realist he doesn't seem to take the grim joy in the struggle that Yaevin did, well to my perceptions at least. It just seems that some of the squirrels relish the romanticism and moral certainty they derive from being the victims of the barbarous dhoine, could be i'm just biased but I really liked Iorveth even though I think trying to establish a free pontar state is a doomed venture.

 

[username_3497665]

I only know the games, I don't know any political background, so this is all speculation based on the impressions I got, because not much is said about the 'elf states' tbh.

I can't say what the priorities (apart from surviving) for a regular non-squirrel elf are, but I think I can imagine why many wouldn't want to move to Dol Blathanna.
The condition aren't as favourable as propaganda has it. 'It's not the flower valley, it's the valley of infertile elders'.
One of the most common description of elves is 'proud'. The way I see it, most elves have a deeply developed sense of dignity and it seems more emphasis is put on the internal feeling and the integrity of self-image rather than external life conditions. From that point of view, freedom can only be valuable (and can only be called freedom in fact) if you owe it to your actions - and only if you remain spiritually free. All those 'elf states' are throwaway countries created by humans to serve human purposes only. I assume they're like ghettos, only bigger. And constantly endangered, if not by the obvious enemies, then by their protectors. You can't accept mock freedom. If you move to Dol Blathanna, you automatically agree to live according to something that's supposed to be yours but is imposed from the outside. It's like conceding defeat and admitting you're not even strong enough not only to fight, but even to oppose and survive the horrible things that happen to you in your normal country.
It's like saying 'I'm not worth living alongside humans, but thankfully humans are so generous they've made us an elf country so they don't have to bear our presence contaminating their valuable human lives'. It's mental slavery.
Denying the opportunity to emigrate (if it is common choice) can be seen as martyrdom and slightly nihilistic approach, but I can understand that. After all, it's the spiritual values elves generally seem to value most. By refusing to "solve" the problem by such means, they may be maintaining their sense of moral superiority, which seems to be a large part of their collective identity.
Cause they will break before they bend.

And of course all the reasons you mention Blothulfur

Besides, it's not like there aren't any elves who left their human dwellings. And different individuals have different abuse threshold. Those who felt particularly endangered, emigrated. Then there must be some who live with the delusion things might change. Many are probably too desperate and helpless to try and do anything, because they've been victimised. It is a form of martyrdom, but unwanted one.

Anyway, that was just my speculation and trying to imagine the sort of mentality many elves might have; admittedly, it's just based on my intuition and I know I'm doing a lot of extrapolation here, because I haven't read the books and the information we get from the games are rather sketchy. All the major elf characters who present their outlook are (ex)Scoiatael, at least in TW2 (and I don't recall anything else in TW1).

 

[Blothulfur]

Well said Flet.

Most settings I despise elves but strangely enough the more I see of how the proud elves are depicted in the northern kingdoms the more i'm liking them, I can empathise with them somewhat.

 

[Vermeer]

What I got from the books. Please, someone correct me if I made mistakes:

·There are reservations (created by humans, of course) for elves: the blue mountains, where they live by their ancient laws and culture.
·However, surviving in the blue mountains is hard. Elves, who used to obtain food easily, found themselves at an hostile environment without even knowing about basic agriculture techniques such as 'barbecho' (I'm sorry... fallow land?).
·There are also elves who just live in human lands, Geralt, or Sapkowski, calls them 'sedentary elves'. They suffer, as well as the rest of non humans, from various political, social and economical mistreatments.

And then, Nilfgaard invades and conquers Cintra (at this point, the soia'tael start reemerging). Sodden Hill battle, Nilfgaard defeated. Political turmoil in the north.

·The elves fight under slogans like "Humans to the sea!" (¡Los humanos al mar!); they are being manipulated with the successful purpose of divert the northern kingdoms attention to them instead of the south.
·Special forces against scoia'tael are created.
·The scoia'tael are also supplied and supported by Nilfgaard.

Later, Nilfgaard invades and conquers Lyria, Rivia and South Aedirn (Upper Aedirn is occupied by our beloved Henselt). This is when Dol Blathanna, a Nilfgaard's satellite state, is created as a result of an agreement between Enid an Gleanna and Emhyr var Emreis. Enid is the queen.

·Of course, Emhyr forbids her to let the scoia'tael settle in; he needs them operating as a guerrilla in the north, behind the front.

Later on, Nilfgaard invasion is finally rejected (Brenna). One condition of the peace agreement is to hand over the scoia'tael leaders.

·Scoia'tael leaders are executed (Iorveth escaped, obviously).

 

[username_2071161]

·Scoia'tael leaders are executed (Iorveth escaped, obviously).

The books are not clear about this. The number of Scoai´tael leaders, which Nilfgaard handed to the northern kingdoms after the peace treaty was 32. They were accussed of war crimes but promised an early amnesty. Out of these 32, 2 were executed (but it seemed to be a private vengeance matter and not ordered by the kings) and one (the most famous one - The Iron Wolf) escaped. The fate of the remaining 29 is unknown.

 

[gorthuar]

Plus, as far as I know, Iorveth never was a member of the Imperial Army, unlike the 32 officers mentioned by the good Captain. He is not mentioned among them, at least...

 

[Blothulfur]

So why are the elves so divorced from manual labour? Was their civilisation so advanced with magic replacing technology as an aid to living or was it merely constructed on the most fertile of enviroments, flood plains, hill farms, fenlands what have you. Or were they dependant on other non humans for agriculture through trade or perhaps servitude, did the changing climate contribute to their downfall and the surge of human competition because Loc Muinne looks like a pretty barren place to call home right now.

Emhyr's a canny beggar isn't he, utterly ruthless by the sounds of it but bloody clever to manipulate an existing animosity into weakening his enemies, and all for some empty promises and a scrap of land.

 

[Vermeer]

I'm rereading all the books right now, it's been a while since I read Lady of the Lake so that last part is not clear in my mind either. Now I'm finishing Tower of the Swallow, in a few days I will reach the events of Brenna and find out what happened.

There is no logical explanation for the apparent lack of elven agriculture; it seems that they were in communion with the earth or something like that; they didn't need to farm because the nature loved them, give them enough food, blah blah blah... until humans arrived and and raped mother nature, that is. Other than that, I wouldn't say that elves are divorced from manual labour... they built cities and are also portrayed as excellent craftsmen. They had a sophisticaded and refined civilization.


And yes, Emhyr is a clever motherfucker.

 

[Blothulfur]

Hmmm cheers for the info Ver Meer.

 

[saintmagician]

Regarding elves playing the victim, this is one of the things that have always annoyed me in fantasy settings where with "second class citizens". Often elves are portrayed as "human with a few different superficial features but better in some other rather significant way". In this case, it's "human with pointy ears but live about 6x longer".

Sure, when the humans first appeared, it could have taken the elves by surprise. There were more humans, they may have had better weaponary, the climate may have been changing to suite them more, whatever. But now, the elves could be working to better themselves. They could, for example, use the lands the human kings give them, and work hard at it. As long as they stay on good terms with the human kings (realistically means something like paying tribute), they could be more or less left alone. (It's not like humans are mobbing the valley of flowers). Eventually when they become economically more powerful, they could trade, and curry more favor with the humans in power. They can bargain for independence in terms of how they run their own society, even if they still 'belong' to a kingdom with a human king. The elven population isn't exactly huge, they don't need to be competing with humans for space, so they could well create a more or less independent elven society that's completely enclosed inside a human empire.

Individual elves, could become 'better' than humans in whatever they do. Look at the role Cedric played in that mostly-human settlement. An elven craftsman will have more experience behind him than any human could possibly have. Sure they may have to suck up to some rich human / human nobelman, but I don't see why they can't do very well in a trade and become better off economically. Even at the bottom of the social ladder, a human prostitute has a decade or two at most of good working time, elves are regarded as beautiful and they don't seem to ever look old. Yes, if human officials tax you more, that sucks. But they aren't going to treat you better if you whine about it or try to fight when you are obviously hideously outnumbered. They may, however, treat you better if you work hard, pay your taxes (and therefore keep their pockets lined), and generally make yourself useful. In a few decades, said human officials will be dead and you will still be around. If anything, try and work to put a human that's more sympathizing to non-humans into power and work from there. Bribery can go a long way.

Of course, any of this involves 'playing the humans' game' so to speak. They need to integrate into human society. But let's be realistic, yes the humans screwed them over first by they are a minority. And judging by their biology they will always be the minority. The only way you're going to win is by slowly changing their view of you.

I think the young elves choose to fight for two reasons. Firstly, young elves are probably like young humans - rather fight with your fists than talk about compromises and longer plans. Even if 'young' elves are actually elves in their hundreds.

Second reason, and the more significant one, I think is this. At the end of the game when you talk to Saskia and talk about what will happen with Iorveth, she says: "He must earn respect on his own, and perhaps, a few generations on, humans will forget."

It's 'forget', not 'forgive'. And it means exactly that. No matter what the practical or realistic thing to do is, people follow their emotions. It takes time, it takes generations, before people *can* forget some things and move on. Humans will need generations before they forget what Iorveth did to them.

But what about the other way around? According to the timeline at the witcher wiki, humans only landed around 500 years ago. 500 years is a long time for humans. But for elves... well there are probably elves who are still alive, who knew an elf that was alive when humans landed. As far as elves are concerned, landing and stealing their land is STILL A RECENT THING. Perhaps that is part of why they are so proud, they are not simply holding onto some ancient culture and dream and refusing to integrate into human society simply because they think they are superior. The emotional impact of what the humans did is still very close to human, this is probably something that happened to their parents or their grandparents. They haven't had "generations" to forget.

I think Iorveth really is trying to find a home for the elves in the pontar valley. I don't think it's about the scoia'teal, because if the pontar valley forms under Saskia's vision, they will have to live side by side with humans. And I think Iorveth knows, it's the elves that will have to take the first step towards this co-existence. Because like Saskia says, in a few generations humans can forget. But in a few generations, the elves who fought in the scoia'teal are still alive, i.e. they are going to have to put aside that past.

Under Iorveth's path in the game, I think it's possible that the Pontar Valley can succeed. Nilfgaardian attacks the north, I like Geralt's saying - nothing brings people together like misery. The elves hopefully wouldn't let them selves be used by the Nilfgaardians again. If the north is busy dealing with that, it may give a chance for Saskia and her people to establish themselves in the Pontar Valley. She may even be able to win over more parts of Aedirn, given that Aedirn has no king and no heir. It is a chance, at least.

Even if the Pontar valey doesn't work, i think as long as the elven race does not work out, they can eventually integrate into human society and slowly raise their position in society. It'll just take time. But if they can use their long lifespans and beauty to their advantage, i don't see how they can't make it happen. It's just right now, what the elves feel about losing their homeland is probably something like how people whose grandparents died in the holocost feel about that.