Anyone else have Open World Fatigue?

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It's "backwards" because for many, many years, back in the day, TB and RTwP were the standards for RPGs. With a few exceptions like Ultima Underworld, the classics are all TB or RTwP. Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Ultima, FO1 and 2, PST, BG 1 and 2, etc. Movement might be live, but combat is either TB or RTwP.

I think it's a horribly flawed logic to say "There were a few games like that back in the day, ergo: Backwards". There were real time games too (Arena, Daggerfall, Diablo, etc) and outside RPG's most games were real time (not to mention that RTWP is real time too). Should that logic be brought to the FPS aspect too? Wolfenstein 3D was one the most popular games of it's time in the early 90's and then came Doom not too much later (and even before that there were first person shooters like Operation Wolf on c64), so going first person real time is going backwards? Or that al lot - if not most - of games were 3rd person aciton games (platformers, sidecrollers, top down like GTA or Commando or Who Dares Wins or Dogs of War...) so 3rd peson realtime action is "backwards"? No. That only dismisses the form and function and the design intent.

Going "backwards" is deliberately choosing old tech that handicaps your design potential. Choosing a form of design (real time, turnbased, realtime with pause, first person, third person, what ever), is choosing just that. That's why the new XCOM games aren't "backwards", that's why HoMM or CIV series' aren't "backwards", why Wasteland 2 or D:OS or T:TON aren't "backwards". There is no "evolution" from turnbased to realtime. Either way is chosen by their own merits and due to what is wanted from the game, which ever way suits the intent best. TB offers far better tactical opportunities and clarity and more finetuned impact from little things for example, realtime offers far better adrenaline rush and reaction gaming for another. And so on.

If the chief intent is only to become another holiday season blockbuster, obviously the design is chosen accordingly. If the desires are somewhere else than needing to be that specific blockbuster, then that's the way it goes. And thank god there're still companies out there that have modest, yet profound desires. I do wish Witcher 3's success has not made CDPR cocky or greedy, but rather given inspiration to try out what they are capable of creatively. There have already been some troubling signs in the air regarding CP that I hope are just my imagination.

VATS is seen as a compromise towards FO 1 and 2

It was meant to be a nod towards the called shots, but in practice it works nothing like them (and there most certain isn't anything turnbased about it). It would've been closer and more acceptable as a mechanic if it had worked more like how combat worked in Wizardry 8 (all the trappings were there), but they decided not to give it that kind of treatment and left it as a gimmick.

Modern players just aren't that interested in TB or any varieties thereof in significant numbers.

Can't say that I'm interested in what modern players are interested in (just like they are not interested in what people like me are). Modern gamers in general like nigh anything that has a resemblance to what they liked yesterday. That's why every game released today is like the other game that was released yesterday. Everybody's playing it safe, only few are taking any risks, and thus all games are so very much alike (apart from the indies and the crowdfunders that deliberately cater to nostalgic appetites).

Sure, Divinity OS sold well - a tiny percentage compared to the RT RPGs. Less than 1/10th of W3, for example? Even smaller compared to FO4, I'm sure.

Divinity OS also did not try to cater to everyone like Fallout 4 or Witcher 3, nor did it have the budget of either (IIRC it was around 5 million dollars altogether -- 1 mil from KS and the rest from Larians own pockets, or some such). It had a specific audience in mind (that was guessed to be a metric ton smaller than what ended up happening). D:OS has around 900,000 owners in Steam (and that's just Steam, there's still GOG and physical - like consoles - owners on top of that). While it is much smaller, it is not such a "tiny" percent. And who cares about that anyway? The game was made the way it was wanted to and it paid back if not ten fold its costs, close to it.

By comparison to D:OS, WL 2 has around 500,000 and PoE around 600,000 Steam owners. (Steamspy figures)

That is all pretty well done from niche games made with shoelace budgets (compared to the "big boys" of the industry who put millions in marketing alone). Games made with less money don't need to sell as much as those intended to be blockbusters from the get go in order to be profitable and guaranteeing a solid base to continue making and improving such games.

So if you want to talk about taking Open World games forward and being bold and new, TB is not that path

Who knows? Making yet another open world action game like all other similiar games thus far is not that path either.

Not to say TB is the path (I know I've been throwing out suggestions otherwise quite a lot and admitted being in terms with the game not being TB if it won't, I'm not rigid in what I'm comfortable with even if I'm not an omnivore with these things and have vocal opinions), but it does seem to be one those less explored areas of design these days (and the past years).

(Another thing that puzzles me sometimes is the shortsightedness, that when this topic comes about immediately an example is dug up from somewhere 20 years ago - when 16MB of RAM was overkill for most games - as if that's the height of what can be done with the design, and then is said: "Oh so obsolete, baaw!" Not saying you do that, but it happens quite a lot with this subject. Just something that came to mind while writing this rant. :p )
 
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Going "backwards" is deliberately choosing old tech that handicaps your design potential. Choosing a form of design (real time, turnbased, realtime with pause, first person, third person, what ever), is choosing just that. That's why the new XCOM games aren't "backwards", that's why HoMM or CIV series' aren't "backwards", why Wasteland 2 or D:OS or T:TON aren't "backwards". There is no "evolution" from turnbased to realtime. Either way is chosen by their own merits and due to what is wanted from the game, which ever way suits the intent best. TB offers far better tactical opportunities and clarity and more finetuned impact from little things for example, realtime offers far better adrenaline rush and reaction gaming for another. And so on.

Hear ! Hear !

If the chief intent is only to become another holiday season blockbuster, obviously the design is chosen accordingly.

Yep, look at anything that sells a lot of games and include it in yours .... Minecraft => Fallout 4 ... FPS => Fallout 4 ...

Turn Based is not the path to success or failure, it's merely an approach that allows tactical game play vice twitch.
Both have their place, both have their disadvantages.
As I've said elsewhere if CP2077 turns out to be FPS/RTS I won't be buying or playing it. Not because I think the decision to make it that style was bad, but because I can't play/enjoy that sort of game. I know many people will love it, more power to them!
 
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To me, open world is the way to go, always.
Point is, the "world" must be filled with things to do. (not just pointless fetch quest).

I liked to death the mood and overall setting of gta4, shame it was basically an empty city with very little to do beside the main missions (no, roman, i will not go to the other side of new york for 5 min of bowling thx).
Gta 5 had the same issue for me, 'cause it was basically aiming to let the multiplayer side fill all the void lleft (i sincerely hope this does not happen with Cyberpunk).
Red dead redemption was funny, but was very strange at the end to read "...you have completed the game, now have fun with the sandbox western simulation..." - and from that day, marston jr. is hunting thousand of animals forever and ever... with no purpose.
 
As I've said elsewhere if CP2077 turns out to be FPS/RTS I won't be buying or playing it. Not because I think the decision to make it that style was bad, but because I can't play/enjoy that sort of game. I know many people will love it, more power to them!

It's about the same with me, although I will think it a shame and a waste of opportunity to do something great (and different) if it goes down that route. I can handle the gameplay, but I'm just not at all interested. That sort of straight forward and arcade gameplay bores me. The reason why I can't find anything or very little at most fun in the gameplay of titles like the Far Cry games, the nu-Fallouts, GTA's and such. This also ties into the "open world fatigue" of the topic title. It's just not very fun or longlasting (in other than the artificial way where the hours are spent in trekking the landscape) gameplay as such, random running around in random locations doing random activities at random pace with boring and repetitive gameplay. I can probably (if I try hard enough) understand the appeal, but it's just not my thing.

Open world seems to be some sort of new fad (has been for some time already) and there's no denying it's chock full of possibilities... on paper. Yet it almost always boils down to mostly pointless and/or disjointed busywork that exists solely to fill the demanded large open spaces (random stuff on top of random stuff on top of the large empty field that must exist).

All in all I wish the trend would start fade out already.
 
All in all I wish the trend would start fade out already.

Yeah, great potential, lousy execution seems to be the watchword.

From a programming perspective generating random missions is EZ, and there are those that aren't bothered by the repetition (and like you I can't for the life of me comprehend that), and of course those that really don't care what the reason or circumstances are as long as they get to kill stuff.

One hopes that a mature game by a quality first developer will keep the target audience in mind and not fill it with (essentially) pointless activity simply for the sake of being able to say "Open World with 100+ of gameplay!"

Have I mentioned lately how much I tend to despise Marketing Types?
 
Open world isn't only about finding these auto-generated missions though. It is about moving freely around, exploring, clearing side-quests and reading great storylines. It is about playing a fun minigame or two and having a side-adventure that gives taste and depth to the world you are experiencing. The open-world RPG genre is on the rise currently. It is not about having a narrative anylonger but a world that you can explore. It is something that fantasy authors have come to explore after Tolkein set the standard for how fantasy worlds are created.

I think that the open-world RPG subgenre is something that could evolutionize gaming in the coming years. Virtual-reality has always been a dream for many, not only gamers but generally those who like story-telling and want to experience tales in a different way. Open-world RPG's introduce us to stories in a way that we haven't experienced before.

The genre is still young, flawed and needs alot of development. However, it would be a shame if developers start to shy away from it.

On the other hand, after such a huge success with the witcher 3, I highly doubt that CJ Project Red will ignore the Open-world formula. I expect Cyberpunk to be an open-world RPG experience just like the witcher 3. Hopefully with improvements as there is alot to learn from current games on the market, both good and bad.
 
Open world isn't only about finding these auto-generated missions though. It is about moving freely around, exploring, clearing side-quests and reading great storylines. It is about playing a fun minigame or two and having a side-adventure that gives taste and depth to the world you are experiencing. The open-world RPG genre is on the rise currently. It is not about having a narrative anylonger but a world that you can explore. It is something that fantasy authors have come to explore after Tolkein set the standard for how fantasy worlds are created.

Keep in mind any, ANY gaming concept is a matter of prospective. What Player A finds critical to a game Player B could care less about.

Although EA measures a games success only by it's sales figures I don't know a single actual gamer that that thinks the number of copies sold matters. Look at the games that are considered "classics", I can't think of a single one of them that was a "best seller" (tho a few did sell quite well).
While I'm not even remotely suggesting a developer ignore sales for the sake of producing a quality game, they shouldn't ignore quality for the sake of sales as most seem to.

Open world can be well done (Fallout 2), unfortunately most forget the quality of the content not it's volume is what really matters.
 
Keep in mind any, ANY gaming concept is a matter of prospective. What Player A finds critical to a game Player B could care less about.

Although EA measures a games success only by it's sales figures I don't know a single actual gamer that that thinks the number of copies sold matters.

Oh the irony, since you immediately proved your own point while disagreeing with it.

I agree with your statement A and absolutely disagree with statement B. I am one of those gamers and the legion of gamers who pay attention to sales numbers for games like Witcher 3 are the reason they post those numbers.

Big sales matter for multiple, multiple reasons. Future sequel games, justification of tastes, ( this is crazy important, actually, to humans), industry direction.

It is more important to me that a game that I like at about 80-85% (DXHR) does really really well as opposed to being a game I love, (V:BL), that dies on the vine.

If it costs me some of my favourite features in order for a game I like a lot to be more popular and hopefully help define a genre, I pay that price gladly.
 
Oh the irony, since you immediately proved your own point while disagreeing with it.

It's called efficient use of resources.

I agree with your statement A and absolutely disagree with statement B. I am one of those gamers and the legion of gamers who pay attention to sales numbers for games like Witcher 3 are the reason they post those numbers.

So you're saying a games sales figures will directly influence the probability you will (or will not) buy a game?
 
So you're saying a games sales figures will directly influence the probability you will (or will not) buy a game?

Before I buy the game? OR after? After, it influences how pleased I am and optimistic about the game - or depressed with how a terrible game sells so well.

Or not so terrible. I'm -still- bitter that HL2 is this amazing mega-colossus whereas the game I loved best that month is history. Or maybe not, since Paradox is in the game now. We'll see.

Before I buy the game...the budget and popularity do influence me, yeah. Bigger of both of those increases the resources the dev has and the chance that they will try to please their fan base. It carries through, too. The more money a game makes, if it's a game I'm interested in, the better the chance I'll try it.

Pretty much the mechanism that had me buying COD:Modern Warfare. Very popular, great sales, I thought, "why not." And MW was a lot of fun.

This doesn't always work out for me. Phantom Pain was a colossal hit and so I bought it. On sale, on a preorder, but based on its popularity, as measured by the previous games' successes, the pre-order numbers and some early reviews.

Well, I -want- to like PP, but meh.

Whereas I watched the sales for Shadowrun:Dragonfall intently, hoping that if it did even better than it's predecessor, Shadowrun: Hong Kong would stand a better chance of being good. And it was!

Mostly, the sales figures influence my hope for the sequel and my idea of possible budget/reinforcement of designer's goals.
 
I'm just happy when they make lots of money by selling a game so that they can make another one. It's MUCH better than making one good game and then going bust. I don't think I've bought a game because it sold well though.
 
Popularity and sales don't mean squat to me in making my own decisions. At most it might influence whether or not I bother to take a look at what it is about, and even then only if the outset is of any interest to me to begin with.

Sales figures are just the relatively small aftermath curiosity. "Hey, it's nice their thing got popular! There is a market for this afterall!" or "Why the fuck do people buy this shit?"
 
The only time I care about game popularity is when looking at MMOs ... empty servers or ones soon to be closed aren't very interesting.
 
I value other people's opinions, to a point. It's a big world with lots of things to play and I have little time. Reviews help, but the best review is people buying it and playing it. Opening day sales don't mean a lot, but sustained sales, oh yes. Best indicator of a well-loved game, at least by the masses. Masses of gamers, of which I am one.

Of course, I completely lack "hip". I'm just a follower of the mob. Sob. Why, do you know I like Fallout 4! Quite a lot! Also...gasp..World of Warcraft! Someone shoot me.
 
I thoroughly enjoyed WoW for about six months when it first released. But after the 49th (yes I counted) trip to Molten Core (I think ... been a while) with absolutely nothing to show for my time and several of those runs involving numerous wipes due to idiots (I actually met Leroy Jenkins) I just quit playing and never went back.

I occasionally consider returning but then realize I'd rather have fond memories then deal with munchkins, trolls, leetists, and fanboyz.
 
They need to evolve, yes. There is no need for CDPR to try and re-invent the wheel here and aim for Biggger!...More Revolutionary!. If they want to set a new bar here, it's better to focus on fixing/improving by now commonly expected flaws that come with open world design.

Pacing

Quests should be more slowly doled out over the course of the game, especially at early start, when players can be easily overwhelmed( which can have negative impact on exploration). Focus on longer, more evolving quest lines instead of high number of shorter ones, low key main plot ( at first) that's only hinted at the playe and left on your own to discover.
This also would keep player more invested, as result of more developed support characters.

No pointless mechanics

Trend with rpgs seems to be including elements from survival games, without developers really understanding what makes them "tick". Games like State of Decay work because their systems heavily interlock with one another and lead to a lot of decision making. When rpgs try to copy these elements, they fail for treating them separately, only adding pointless tedium to their games( since they're lacking in complexity or fine tuning of mechanics...classical example: durability).
Stop wasting yours and player's time on this.

Less busywork with loot/crafting/upgrade systems

Focus on choice quality rewards in the environment, handplaced relating to difficulty...whether acquired by exploration or conflict.
Less is more: finding unique weapon mod through puzzle solving, clever study of the environment or risking a extremely difficult combat encounter is rewarding.
Having to run around and collect all manner of junk/diagrams scattered all over the world adds nothing positive to the game.

Navigation through clear dialogue instructions and use of landmarks

Using quest arrows/mini map for traversal is exploration cancer: they divert player's attention from the world and make moment to moment gameplay less engaging. Lke "watching" a movie through fast forwarding from one "cool" scene to the next, start to finish...what you end up is a hollow experience.

Use the Open World

Writers for non linear storytelling, Gameplay designers through interaction with the environment with an impact on npcs/gameplay, environment/quest designers through more varied approach to your objects, Rpg mechanics allowing different methods of traversal and options in exploration.
 
It is not open world, its boring open worlds with repetitive actions and nothing to do outside of the quests. Many open world game are flat out lazy, just copy and paste the same missions/fetch quests, everything is pretty static, if you enter a town/city the people might as well be statues for how you can interact with them and all the buildings are just cardboard cutouts you cannot enter (except a few rare ones) and the vast majority of objects around are fixed so you cannot interact with them at all. I want a lot of stuff to do in open worlds that have nothing to do with missions or side quests. I want to go to a bar to hang out, I want to interact with random NPC's and talk with them, I want entertainment, there should be clubs to hang out, dance, hit on for one night stands or just companionship, there should be malls to go visit stores, even go to restaurants to eat and relax. Gun range to shoot, events like celebrations (mardi gras) where everybody parties, let me take a tour ride, let me buy my own houses and businesses to run, go to the gym to workout..etc. GTA: San Andreas was one of the better GTA games because of all the mini games you could do outside of missions. Bethesda is the worse example of open world games, their games are wide as an ocean with the depth of a kiddy pool. W3 was pretty good, but they also suffered from repetitive actions, specially monster and bandit scenes, although not nearly as bad as other open world games. We just need those areas to have interesting things to do than just be empty props. Make as much areas unique as possible with fun and interesting stuff to do, preferably unique so you will want to revisit some of them again later on. Also, make it something unique and unexpected, fallout 2 had a lot of interesting things to do, things you would never expect, but made the game enjoyable because of it.

I am against a fixed protagonist, we pretty much have had nothing but that in every game that has come out in the last decade. I want my character to be my character, not another shephard, geralt, adam jenson..etc. In fact, have you noticed a trend in just about all premade characters? They are pretty much all the same type of character, the tough military mindset character that has been overdone to death. I loved geralt, but I definitely don't want another one, I want to create my own unique character with its own personality. That is what makes roleplaying fun for me. I want to play a game, not just watch a movie.
 
I kind of liked Oblivion and Skyrim, but i was not that into open world gaming at the time they came out, now though I find that if a game is not open world I do not want to spend money on it because with an open world game I know there is going to be alot of stuff to do. Non the less of it being filler as people say. I loved how TW3 had different strong enemies at certain strong loot areas, or tricky enemies. Still open world games are the games for me because I want to be able to play a game for longer than a couple of months, I have been playing TW3 for a couple of months and I can see I will be doing a lot more playthroughs, alot more. I can understand what you are saying you just have to find a game type that you can not put the pad down when playing it and stick to it I quess?
 
Take a look at Mass Effect: Andomeda.

Lots of people love it because the combat is much improved over the previous games in the series.
Lots of people hate it because virtually everything but the combat (animations, writing, voices, etc.) is worse then previous games in the series.

So essentially ... as a shooter the game is a success ... as an RPG it's pretty much of a flop.

But, as always ... it's a matter of what the individual gamer finds important in a game.
 
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