I never said he was. I said that would be the person to pick for a general.
Speak for yourself! My Warden is amazing and everyone should fear her!!! *shakes fist*
My Hawke isn't so bad but I'd rather have her on the front lines kicking ass than making important decisions.
? The warden unites the people of Ferelden in time to stop the blight before it really even starts, kills the archdemon, lives, then depending on your choices, either saves both Amaranthine and the fort (though the way you have to do it is tactically retarded), sends the darkspawn back into the deeproads, or at the very least kills the two assholes causing trouble and the guy that started the blight in the first place.
Say what you like, but there's way more credentials here than Hawke.
I've been over this and am not going to revisit, but the Warden has some agency and competence. Hawke is a feckless bystander.
Yep, I don't dislike Hawke the way others here do, but a leader Hawke is not. No matter how much they tried convincing you he was. They call him "champion" right? So let them be a champion and go kill stuff over there in a corner while I do the real important stuff.
Your Warden, as in the character in your head. In my head my Warden is a badass dwarf noble who is a master manipulator, competent strategist and capable warrior.
In the game he's an imbecile who follows exactly what others say to him. That you get to pick between pixel A and B does not make your character well written or capable in any way. You also confuse this notion that because the game treats the character like some special snowflake that the character is somehow competent, capable or intelligent.
@Unkindled You do that while following what others tell you. How exactly is being able to kill a bunch of people make you capable in any way? It fucking doesn't.
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No one told me to choose the mages over the templars or to save the elves and the forest spirit, or to either help Branka or kill her, ending up with either dwarves or dwarves and golems, or to take a chance with the boy in redcliff and look for another means to save him that won't cost more lives due to a blood magic ritual, or to find a way to save both your city and keep despite the darkspawn's best efforts, etc etc etc. There's been many choices that my warden made that were mine and mine alone. Someone suggesting that there's other options than what was presented does not mean that they made the choice for me.
Also, we're talking about a general. Making sure shit gets killed seems rather important to me, especially when they get killed because you decide they die, rather than Hawke where everything just dies around him because everyone in Kirkwall is friggin high.
That you picked options when presented with them does not make your character intelligent, competent or capable in any way. The Keep in itself is a non-choice since all you is just find resources around the world, upgrade it and it holds while saving Amaranthine.
Deciding to kill people does not make one a general or a commander in any way. A judge can sentence people to death with the legal power they are granted, doesn't make them military leaders.
What Bioware is horrible at is thinking that someone is a general just because without any rhyme or reason behind it. There's no work involved in getting people to follow your orders in battle, there's no charisma involved in Bioware games, there's no dealing with causalities and so on and finally there is no war strategy at all that you are involved in making.
The Warden is a glorified errand boy. If he was a general he would be deciding where to mass his armies, not Eamon at Redcliff. The Warden would then deploy the troops as he/she saw fit, create a battle plan and win like that and you don't. Riordan creates the Archdemon plan.
Game of Thrones RPG handles this better. You're playing a noble with various people under him and you have to fight a battle and win using different troops led by different commanders. You have take into consideration terrain and troop composition in your deployment and the battle can be won or lost depending on your decisions.
Awakening was good because it handled the POLITICAL part of nobility relatively ok with various choices and your ability to be proactive on certain aspects of the story ( like the plot against your character ), the military was shit.
The ultimate point here is that Warden has no place leading anything, nor does Hawke. Both are absolute imbeciles, that one is better then another is irrelevant.
Deciding to kill people does not make one a general or a commander in any way. A judge can sentence people to death with the legal power they are granted, doesn't make them military leaders.
What Bioware is horrible at is thinking that someone is a general just because without any rhyme or reason behind it. There's no work involved in getting people to follow your orders in battle, there's no charisma involved in Bioware games, there's no dealing with causalities and so on and finally there is no war strategy at all that you are involved in making.
The Warden is a glorified errand boy. If he was a general he would be deciding where to mass his armies, not Eamon at Redcliff. The Warden would then deploy the troops as he/she saw fit, create a battle plan and win like that and you don't. Riordan creates the Archdemon plan.
Game of Thrones RPG handles this better. You're playing a noble with various people under him and you have to fight a battle and win using different troops led by different commanders. You have take into consideration terrain and troop composition in your deployment and the battle can be won or lost depending on your decisions.
Awakening was good because it handled the POLITICAL part of nobility relatively ok with various choices and your ability to be proactive on certain aspects of the story ( like the plot against your character ), the military was shit.
The ultimate point here is that Warden has no place leading anything, nor does Hawke. Both are absolute imbeciles, that one is better then another is irrelevant.
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That you picked the options that came up with grand results does make your character intelligent, competent and capable indeed. I'm also going off of my personal warden, btw, where I pretty much got the most ideal outcomes in my eyes. My decisions saved many lives despite the need for sacrifice to fight the darkspawn. I settled a dispute in foreign land amongst the very stubborn and hot headed dwarves, got their assistance and lead to the growth and development of the dwarves due to my choice in who I supported for their king, I saved the lives of the mages as well as stopped the demon incursion, I saved the lives of the elves and werewolves and ended an age long curse, I saved Eamon and his son and discovered the ashes of andraste herself, defeated legendary flemeth, even if not permanently, killed several dragons, including the archdemon itself, which I did because of the fact that the warden, choice or not, was successful in his uniting of Ferelden.
There was also the landsmeet, which took a lot of detective work to make Loghain look bad, and that's after either evading a well set up ambush, or escaping prison. I sometimes let myself be captured on purpose for the fun of it.
Point is, the choices you can make and the ones I did make lead to very good results for the people of Ferelden, and even if there was no choice, the Grey Warden still gets enough support despite all odds to stop an entire blight before it starts. I don't see how this wouldn't qualify the Warden to be a general over Hawke.
Hawke strikes it rich, kills the arishok or convinces the qunari to leave (after they kill the vicount) and then basically is just there for when the shit hits the fan later on in Kirkwall. Though he at least did kill Meredith. There's a big big difference in achievements between these two however.
Even if what we did doesn't show the warden is some tactical genius or something, which I never said, it does show that they get shit done. That's all that matters.
There was also the landsmeet, which took a lot of detective work to make Loghain look bad, and that's after either evading a well set up ambush, or escaping prison. I sometimes let myself be captured on purpose for the fun of it.
Point is, the choices you can make and the ones I did make lead to very good results for the people of Ferelden, and even if there was no choice, the Grey Warden still gets enough support despite all odds to stop an entire blight before it starts. I don't see how this wouldn't qualify the Warden to be a general over Hawke.
Hawke strikes it rich, kills the arishok or convinces the qunari to leave (after they kill the vicount) and then basically is just there for when the shit hits the fan later on in Kirkwall. Though he at least did kill Meredith. There's a big big difference in achievements between these two however.
Even if what we did doesn't show the warden is some tactical genius or something, which I never said, it does show that they get shit done. That's all that matters.
Sigh, yes. Sure. That's it exactly.
Even though being stereotypical doesn't change the results of what my character chose and what he accomplished, and intelligence and capability has absolutely nothing to do with how original you think someone is or isn't...
Yes, I somehow equate the warden being stereotypical to being intelligent and competent.
Even though being stereotypical doesn't change the results of what my character chose and what he accomplished, and intelligence and capability has absolutely nothing to do with how original you think someone is or isn't...
Yes, I somehow equate the warden being stereotypical to being intelligent and competent.
The problem I have with BioWare games is that I am oftentimes put in a situation where I am expected to make a choice and I, as the player, see a 3rd option I would rather choose instead (sometimes this option is even death.) I feel like I am sometimes supposed to suspend my own ideas of the situation in order to eat whatever cake the designer wants me have. This really frustrates me. I oftentimes think of a myriad of other possible solutions other than the convoluted plot-device the designers wants me to do right then. In that sense, it's a little bit like I have to suspend my belief in the story, which is a big error in fantasy writing of any kind. There are other RPGs where I don't have this problem, like The Witcher and Deus Ex.
And just to shine light on your debate I just want to point out that @Unkindled is looking at BioWare's narrative choices in context of what the designer presents to you, whereas @Costin is looking at it out of context, i.e. what the narrative choices could have been if BioWare wrote their story differently (more realistically.)
Anyways, Dragon Age Inquisition looks like a cool game. But I am hesitant to pick it up because I haven't been able to get into a BioWare game since KOTOR 1 (which I played 3 years ago because I didn't play it when it first came out.)
And just to shine light on your debate I just want to point out that @Unkindled is looking at BioWare's narrative choices in context of what the designer presents to you, whereas @Costin is looking at it out of context, i.e. what the narrative choices could have been if BioWare wrote their story differently (more realistically.)
Anyways, Dragon Age Inquisition looks like a cool game. But I am hesitant to pick it up because I haven't been able to get into a BioWare game since KOTOR 1 (which I played 3 years ago because I didn't play it when it first came out.)
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The game presenting certain choices with outcomes that can be very positive does not make your character intelligent, no more then it does Shepard.
By your logic Shepard would be the second messiah considering what outcomes he can achieve in Mass Effect.Saving two entire races from genocide ( Krogan, Rachni ), ending a 300 year old conflict between the Quarians and Geth with both species living in harmony, saving the galaxy from Sovereign and Saren and then saving it again from the entire Reaper Fleet.
Yet Shepard is an imbecile, because while he is allowed to make certain choices at specific times he ( or she ) does not act outside of those circumstance. For instance Shepard allows himself to be captured by the Alliance and put forward on trial while there are crucial preparations to be made against the reapers...because reasons. Then Shepard spends more time hunting down Cerberus then actually fighting Reapers...and then wins the war by directing the entire galaxy to build a super weapon that NO ONE KNOWS HOW IT WORKS.
The Warden in DA:O is just as much of an imbecile. You spend hours to save Arl Eamon in the hopes of resolving the civil war by going on a merry chase for a legendary urn that no one has any fucking clue if it really exists just because this guy is important...somehow. Also you spend hours upon hours resolving the Orzammar conflict not through political manipulations, careful negotiations and smart decision making but by entering the Deep Roads in search of a forgotten artifact that has been lost centuries ago so that you can get the vote of some important fellow that completely undermines every action you've done to swing the situation one way or another.
Then at the end of the fucking game the armies you collected force march across the entire country then launch an insane attack against an army three times your size and you win not through strategy, tactics but because some Orlesian Imbecile got lucky in bringing down a flying dragon by jumping on it's back and you finished it off.
So no. The Warden is a fucking moron. If he was inteligent he never would have done half the things he does in Origins and found other solutions.
Some would argue that the game can't consider every possibility, to which I retort that the game should then focus on making the story you follow intelligent. This is the fundamental difference between CDPR and Bioware, because in Bioware games you play an imbecile who follows a stupid plot because people tell him to without any ability to do anything otherwise whereas in The Witcher series Geralt follow a story because HE chooses to, whatever the choices he makes.
Geralt chooses to hunt down Salamandra for the Witcher secrets, Geralt chooses to get involved or not in elven conflict, Geralt chooses who is best for Alvin, Geralt chooses to go after Letho for multiple reasons ( information, clearing his name, revenge ) and he makes decisions throughout the entire series that make sense one way or another in an intelligently written story.
By your logic Shepard would be the second messiah considering what outcomes he can achieve in Mass Effect.Saving two entire races from genocide ( Krogan, Rachni ), ending a 300 year old conflict between the Quarians and Geth with both species living in harmony, saving the galaxy from Sovereign and Saren and then saving it again from the entire Reaper Fleet.
Yet Shepard is an imbecile, because while he is allowed to make certain choices at specific times he ( or she ) does not act outside of those circumstance. For instance Shepard allows himself to be captured by the Alliance and put forward on trial while there are crucial preparations to be made against the reapers...because reasons. Then Shepard spends more time hunting down Cerberus then actually fighting Reapers...and then wins the war by directing the entire galaxy to build a super weapon that NO ONE KNOWS HOW IT WORKS.
The Warden in DA:O is just as much of an imbecile. You spend hours to save Arl Eamon in the hopes of resolving the civil war by going on a merry chase for a legendary urn that no one has any fucking clue if it really exists just because this guy is important...somehow. Also you spend hours upon hours resolving the Orzammar conflict not through political manipulations, careful negotiations and smart decision making but by entering the Deep Roads in search of a forgotten artifact that has been lost centuries ago so that you can get the vote of some important fellow that completely undermines every action you've done to swing the situation one way or another.
Then at the end of the fucking game the armies you collected force march across the entire country then launch an insane attack against an army three times your size and you win not through strategy, tactics but because some Orlesian Imbecile got lucky in bringing down a flying dragon by jumping on it's back and you finished it off.
So no. The Warden is a fucking moron. If he was inteligent he never would have done half the things he does in Origins and found other solutions.
Some would argue that the game can't consider every possibility, to which I retort that the game should then focus on making the story you follow intelligent. This is the fundamental difference between CDPR and Bioware, because in Bioware games you play an imbecile who follows a stupid plot because people tell him to without any ability to do anything otherwise whereas in The Witcher series Geralt follow a story because HE chooses to, whatever the choices he makes.
Geralt chooses to hunt down Salamandra for the Witcher secrets, Geralt chooses to get involved or not in elven conflict, Geralt chooses who is best for Alvin, Geralt chooses to go after Letho for multiple reasons ( information, clearing his name, revenge ) and he makes decisions throughout the entire series that make sense one way or another in an intelligently written story.
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First of all, I actually do think Shephard proves to be competent. But that's a discussion for another day.
Second, I don't think you really got the story if you don't understand that you need Eamon because he supports you in the landsmeet against Loghain, and he also has soldiers that can help fight the darkspawn. And they made it rather clear that nothing short of a miracle was going to stop that Orzammar conflict in a TIMELY fashion, which is why we went for ploughing the deep roads instead of waiting or dealing with politics directly. Politics that we couldn't even get involved in on that deep a level because we're outsiders.
As for the archdemon, they only got close enough to it because the army was able to punch through the darkspawn. That goes for our high flying grey warden as well.
I'm not going tit for tat over this all night. Bottom line is my statement was comparing the Warden with HAWKE. I did NOT say that the Warden was super intelligent, or super capable. I originally and still say he is more intelligent and capable than HAWKE. That's it. Whether you think the Warden is smart or dumb is another matter, and I personally couldn't give two shits about it tonight. And that's that.
If you wish to address what I said, tell me how the Warden isn't more fitting a choice for general than Hawke. That is the topic. That is the issue at hand. Not every last discrepancy you personally had with the story. Cry about it to someone else, please.
Second, I don't think you really got the story if you don't understand that you need Eamon because he supports you in the landsmeet against Loghain, and he also has soldiers that can help fight the darkspawn. And they made it rather clear that nothing short of a miracle was going to stop that Orzammar conflict in a TIMELY fashion, which is why we went for ploughing the deep roads instead of waiting or dealing with politics directly. Politics that we couldn't even get involved in on that deep a level because we're outsiders.
As for the archdemon, they only got close enough to it because the army was able to punch through the darkspawn. That goes for our high flying grey warden as well.
I'm not going tit for tat over this all night. Bottom line is my statement was comparing the Warden with HAWKE. I did NOT say that the Warden was super intelligent, or super capable. I originally and still say he is more intelligent and capable than HAWKE. That's it. Whether you think the Warden is smart or dumb is another matter, and I personally couldn't give two shits about it tonight. And that's that.
If you wish to address what I said, tell me how the Warden isn't more fitting a choice for general than Hawke. That is the topic. That is the issue at hand. Not every last discrepancy you personally had with the story. Cry about it to someone else, please.
My retort to your point about Hawke versus the Warden is that both of them are imbeciles and neither of them has any place leading an army. You were the one trying to make the Warden seem intelligent.
I also don't think you understand, or care, how dumb the story of DA:O is. But whatever people like their dumb stories.
The fact you consider Shepard capable speaks volumes.
I also don't think you understand, or care, how dumb the story of DA:O is. But whatever people like their dumb stories.
The fact you consider Shepard capable speaks volumes.
The fact that I consider Shephard capable doesn't speak a damn thing except my opinion is different than yours. Ad hominem, and a poor one at that. Shephard is perfectly capable. The people who aren't capable are the writers who took everything we accomplished and made it meaningless.
As for your retort, your argument is flawed to its core because you're basically saying "The knife and stick are both dull, so the knife can't be more capable of cutting." And that's if I agreed the Warden was an imbecile.
The warden has done much more than Hawke bottom line. He got shit done one way or another. He's more appropriate as general.
edit: And yea, I do think my warden is intelligent... and there lies the issue. MINE. You disagreeing doesn't mean you need to bitch and moan at me about it.
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To your edit, no, I really don't give a fuck about your opinion on how dumb the story is, because it has nothing to do with what I said about the warden being more appropriate as general. As I already said previously.
Bioware shouldn't try any sort of military simulation at all, after all their idea of sound military tactics is to charge out of a chokepoint at a numerically superior opponent.