Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Dead simple. Think Halo or CoD.

0.62%

2 votes

>227 voted for CP2077 to be like Call of Duty

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

But it could be a totally new style.

It could and it should. There is room for deviation from the commonplace if only someone has the balls to start and take the reins for it.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

To be perfectly honest, Witcher 3 could've done with a bit of toning down to being more in line with Witchers 1 and 2.

Would you be happy with a opitional turn based combat system in Cyberpunk 2077? I know I would.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Would you be happy with a opitional turn based combat system in Cyberpunk 2077?

I sure would, and I wouldn't play the game any other way if such existed. But I'm not holding my breath for having one.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

I sure would, and I wouldn't play the game any other way if such existed. But I'm not holding my breath for having one.

The only thing I'm not a fan in turn based is the unffair "rolling dice" system that some games have, well it says you have 50% of chance of hitting your enemy? Guess what, the 10 shots you made you only hit the target twice.

Spoiler

So you basically invested 10 level points in perception only so you be able to invest more 10 points in firearms, only to later make a quest to master the firearms skill??? And on top of that you have 90% of chance of hitting your target? Guess you'll still miss 70% of times! I'm looking at you Arcanum.

CDPR won't make it. It takes time and it won't make a lot of money. Perhaps they cold make a minigame version of Gwent some months after CP2077's release.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

unffair "rolling dice" system

How is it "unfair"? I'd say you can not find a fairer system than the weighted probability that's (usually) there.

it says you have 50% of chance of hitting your enemy? Guess what, the 10 shots you made you only hit the target twice.

That's how randomness works. If you flip a coin ten times, it's not guaranteed that you get heads every second time even if the probability for it is there. But the randomness in these games is no there "for you". It's there to represent the characters knowhow in relation to the situation at hand (and all that comes with it). It's an abstract and to be interpreted as such... 50% to hit chance does not mean "every second swing/shot is a hit", it means you are just as likely to hit as you are to miss.

It's the same if you had 95% to hit chance and you miss three times in a row... that's just how it works, you are more likely to hit than to miss, but there is still the margin of error. Even the best make mistakes and have unlucky streaks. The same also works the other way around, you might get... let's say ten (for examples sake) hits in a row with 5% or 10% chance to hit even if you statistically should only hit by every 10th or 20th shot, but you won't complain about that.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

That's how randomness works. If you flip a coin ten times, it's not guaranteed that you get heads every second time even if the probability for it is there. But the randomness in these games is no there "for you". It's there to represent the characters knowhow in relation to the situation at hand (and all that comes with it). It's an abstract and to be interpreted as such... 50% to hit chance does not mean "every second swing/shot is a hit", it means you are just as likely to hit as you are to miss. It's the same if you had 95% to hit chance and you miss three times in a row... that's just how it works, you are more likely to hit than to miss, but there is still the margin of error. Even the best make mistakes and have unlucky streaks. The same also works the other way around, you might get... let's say ten (for examples sake) hits in a row with 5% or 10% chance to hit even if you statistically should only hit by every 10th or 20th shot, but you won't complain about that.

[SUCCEEDED] Who the hell created the universe the way it is? Well ok, it makes sense if it makes the game chalenging.

But if you have 90% of chance of hitting the target, you should at least hit it most of the time, if this doens't happen it will eventually destroy any progress you made, Might as well build a meelee focused character since it doens't need bullets so it doens't spend muney. But it makes sense, we don't want a easy unchalenging game after all, although the greatest chalenge in turn based games is building a great character.

But how about 100 times or 10000 times huh? if you spend the whole godamm game missing 90% of the shots even though you've spent a lot of points on your build, then it will suck. At some point the character will have to be kind of good in his specialities.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

But if you have 90% of chance of hitting the target, you should at least hit it most of the time

I bet that is exactly what happens at those odds. Your view might get skewed if you happen to witness an "unlucky streak", and you might think it's rigged or it's not working because hey the % says it should be different, but unless there's a programming issue in the systems, it is working. The 9 out of ten chance might not be statistically visible up until you have far beyond the amount of attempts that you would normally keep track of in a game.

You can test it in practice. Take a 10 sided dice, roll it a 100 times and count every time you get under or equal to 9. See how many times your 90% succeeded.

But I'm no mathematician and these statistics shouldn't be the worry of the player anyway. The character missed an almost guaranteed shot. Why? Maybe the wind got to his eye just the moment of pulling the trigger, maybe the sun came out behind the clouds and made him squint, maybe his balls started itching at the wrongest time, maybe you don't care why, the fucker just missed, bad randomness, bad.... There's a bit of a mind game to do there, not playpretend nor eLARP, but just filling out some gaps there is no narrative for just like with a PnP game when you roll badly. The character missed and you can justify it by what ever means you think suits.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

I bet that is exactly what happens at those odds. Your view might get skewed if you happen to witness an "unlucky streak", and you might think it's rigged or it's not working because hey the % says it should be different, but unless there's a programming issue in the systems, it is working. The 9 out of ten chance might not be statistically visible up until you have far beyond the amount of attempts that you would normally keep track of in a game.

You can test it in practice. Take a 10 sided dice, roll it a 100 times and count every time you get under or equal to 9. See how many times your 90% succeeded.

But I'm no mathematician and these statistics shouldn't be the worry of the player anyway. The character missed an almost guaranteed shot. Why? Maybe the wind got to his eye just the moment of pulling the trigger, maybe the sun came out behind the clouds and made him squint, maybe his balls started itching at the wrongest time.... There's a bit of a mind game to do there, not playpretend nor eLARP, but just filling out some gaps there is no narrative for just like with a PnP game when you roll badly. The character missed and you can justify it by what ever means you think suits.

The chances in a dice pnp game is way different than a system that straight out says it's 90% the whole game when it's in fact 30%, so why the hell not just not lie to the players? Goddammit, tells us it's 30%, so we'll know what we're going into before spending a fuktone of points. If you have the chance of programming the game to not violate the players in their anal cavity with its "dice game" then you should do it, perhaps in terms of chances it all makes since all you said it's even possible!

The thought process of most players when finding out that you'll eventually get 90% of chances of getting the shot is probably something like "hey! what a great idead to invest a lot of time in this skill!". The though process in a pnp game would be very different since you know what decides the chances.

Now, 90% of chance of hitting a enemy in Arcanum using MELEE almost never misses! HAHA screw gunslingers LMAO Let's create a unbalanced game. Arcanum is great by the way, seriously.

I'm thinking about bying this mask, wat do yuo guys think

Spoiler

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

a system that straight out says it's 90% the whole game when it's in fact 30%,

What game does that?

And anyway, the hit chance might be 90%, that's the likelyhood, but after you shot 10 times during the combat your success rate might indeed be 30% because it is random. This couldn't be predicted, nobody knew beforehand to warn you and because the likelyhood was 90% that number was given to you to have something to go by.

There's a video about Tim Cain in the Reboot conference from earlier this year and he touched this topic. Starting at 25:04:

There's other interesting stuff there too.

The though process in a pnp game would be very different since you know what decides the chances.

Why is it different? In both cases you invest to increase your odds.

 

[Sardukhar]

It could and it should. There is room for deviation from the commonplace if only someone has the balls to start and take the reins for it.

Yeah, but your deviation is always a return to old ideas. Turn based or semi turn based and the like. That's not new and, frankly, not exciting. It's been done and done and done before. It would be a return to the commonplace.

Not sure what a fun deviation would look like. I enjoyed Witcher 1 combat - that was different.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

What game does that?

And anyway, the hit chance might be 90%, that's the likelyhood, but after you shot 10 times during the combat your success rate might indeed be 30% because it is random. This couldn't be predicted, nobody knew beforehand to warn you and because the likelyhood was 90% that number was given to you to have something to go by.

There's a video about Tim Cain in the Reboot conference from earlier this year and he touched this topic. Starting at 25:04:

There's other interesting stuff there too.



Why is it different? In both cases you invest to increase your odds.

Arcanum,. It really increases your odd in both cases, but the math probability behind the pnp and turn based video games might be different.

Gonna see it. You see, I really like turn based combat. I'd still get hopes to see a isometric turn based Cyberpunk 2077 made by mods, not soon though maybe many years after the release.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Yeah, but your deviation is always a return to old ideas.Turn based or semi turn based and the like. That's not new and, frankly, not exciting. It's been done and done and done before. It would be a return to the commonplace.

Reiteration, not return. There's a difference. I've always tried to mix old and new ideas.

But yeah, you are probably right. Let's just wait for the inevitable, since there is really no moving forward. It's either commonplace then, which is "done done done" and not exciting; or commonplace now which is even more "done done done", but which also doesn't really seem to matter for what ever reason for any one individual.

 

[Suhiira]

Sometimes games do reflect real life however.

I can easily hit a human-size target 99% of the time at 500m with a non-scoped rifle, does that mean I can do the same to a real person in a real firefight? *just laughs*
Any game involving firearms that's going to be worth spit needs to take cover, movement, aim-time, and other factors into account. Not I'm not dismissing what Lisbeth_Salander said, in fact I've run into it myself in Arcanum and other games, but as long as it's internally consistent within a game I can live with it (tho not necessarily like it).

As to the "it's been done before" discussion ... so what? Does it work? That matters far, far, more to me.

 

[Sardukhar]

As to the "it's been done before" discussion ... so what? Does it work? That matters far, far, more to me.

Sure..but blob RPGs a la Bard's Tale, "worked". I prefer Witcher 1, 2 and 3, though. Progress. Everyone's definition of "worked" is going to vary.

One compromise I could see working would be swapping to a PnP style tactical map like the pics in the CP2020 corebook. It won't happen, but it would be interesting.

\\\

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Pong worked too, and it's fast (at least after a while) and reflex based realtime to boot. They should definitely go that way.

Anyway, so what kind of action should there be? Witcher 2&3 style somersaultmastering pistol-ninja? Nu-Deus Ex style clean firstperson shooter experience with sticky cover so sticky you have to pry the character off of it? Dark Souls style hard and dodgy? Something else?

 

[Sardukhar]

Pong worked too, and it's fast (at least after a while) and reflex based realtime to boot. They should definitely go that way.

Anyway, so what kind of action should there be? Witcher 2&3 style somersaultmastering pistol-ninja? Nu-Deus Ex style clean firstperson shooter experience with sticky cover so sticky you have to pry the character off of it? Dark Souls style hard and dodgy? Something else?

Metal Gear Solid V was a boring game - but the character movement and combat was crisp.

I also liked Bloodlines cursor-size, skill-affected accuracy, but I suspect that's out.


I wouldn't have any problem with a cool Bullet-time mode, with their slowdown based on your REF ( Bloodlines again) because I loved chasing bullets in VBL.

An alternate Full-Stop tactical mode where you have a set number of actions before the enemy moves, sort-of like a stat-based Superhot, would be neat. Init total less than 10, you go, they go. Every five points (round off) beyond your opponent, you get an extra action before they go. So Initiative check, Normal Joe rolls 10 ( 5 REF, 5 on the roll), it's one-for-one. If he or his opponent has REF of 12 and rolls, say, 3 and has speedware up, they'd get three actions before the other person got to move or shoot. Shoot, move, reload a la Superhot. Could be fun for melee, too.

 

[Rawls]

Something else?

This one. It has to be fun but also allow for multiple in depth play styles. Melee - ranged - stealth - hacking - dialogue should all be options to handle many scenarios.

I think enemies like Horizon Zero Dawn would be awesome (not robot dinosaurs - enemies that have weaknesses and weak points that can be exploited and whom hit hard). I do prefer a more action oriented style.

Fast paced team (non-tactical view) combat like Mass Effect Andromeda and DA:I mixed together. CP really is a team style PnP and I think the crpg should reflect that. Each role-type gets a set of skills you can upgrade for your team mates. However, I don't think all companions should be with you for the whole game like bioware games. Just make all characters of a similar role have a similar combat style. When they join up with you the first time you can set the specific skill upgrades they have available to them based on role/career/whatever you want to call it. EDIT: Maybe even let NPC companions earn extra skill points too if they complete missions/quests with you.

However, stealth also needs to be an big element ... but it's hard to pick a game that does it well in a city environment. Dues Ex does alright at it but I agree something that doesn't stick the player to cover - probably more MGS V - ish but in a city. Combing this with the team play will be hard ... but I think the best solution is just being able to tell team members to hang back and cover until further orders - just make sure you pick a spot they aren't likely to be seen. Oh and make sure the AI really doesn't move until you tell them to.

Hacking has to be a potential option for many scenarios as well ... I've never played watch dogs so I can't comment on if that would be a good way to go ... all I can say is I've never played a game that had a fun hacking mechanic. CP2077 needs to have one since braindance, cyberware, interface and the like are ingrained in the heart of the game.

It's a huge challenge ... that's for sure.

 

[Meccanical]

A game called Valkyria Chronicles kind of what you described Sard. Albeit not exactly because the time isn't quite 1:1.

[video=youtube;p-0RY4TTNwE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-0RY4TTNwE[/video]

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

looks kind of like Hogs of War