immidiate hot fix for henselt while scoiatael ambush abuse goes on with full speed

[Tamacountry13]

The biggest problem I see with the Ambush mechanic is that Dragoons can buff them in which nothing can do done about it once they're placed.
Weather can work but all Ambushes are agile so they can be placed around it and normally always have a Clear Skies handy anyway.
If Dragoons can't buff Ambush units then the majority of the complaints would disappear.

Schirru is completly fine as he is and needs no further changes.

Giving your opponent an Ambush with Operator then killing it with Morenn also wouldn't be so bad if Dragoons couldn't buff the Ambush card.

 

[Ravana729]

The top rated ST decks right now do not use ambush. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with ST, just, this isn't it. They could make a neutral Morenn I suppose, but then we lose the point of "Elves are sneaky mofos"

When i am facing down ST and I know there is probably a Toruviel, I count towards that, and make sure my buffed unit matchs her strength. That's my counter - but currently most decks without Triss or Nilf have the ability to buff in-hand.

 

[Ruthless95]

When i am facing down ST and I know there is probably a Toruviel, I count towards that, and make sure my buffed unit matchs her strength.

but then it turns out to be ciaran and you just went to 2-3 card disadvantage. or toruviel is one extra time buffed which you didn't account for. guess whose going to start the next round btw. GG

 

[Ravana729]

I honestly don't see Ciaran a lot in my bracket, but I imagine that will change. But from what Frogman is saying, the top is 90%+ ST mirrors anyways so why not just go with the bad game design and play ST for now? Then you can Morenn the crap out of them.

We could use a card like, a creature, bronze, if someone places an ambush, reveal it immediately. That would slow down ambush decks really quickly. Then we could abuse scorch. Alot.

 

[Archpriest]

I never said you are exclusive ST player, I said "I know your are ST player" that means even though you are playing with all faction may be you are playing more with ST & I said that coz I saw some of your post in ST nerf threads like this where you are always trying to defend ST & saying ST is your fav. faction. Anyways that's not the point here so If you think I am wrong what I said then ok Sorry for that.

Just for the record. Two factions that got me to 4500 mmr were NR with Dethmold, Regis and Trololo and a weird Skellige with Morkvarg as a bait and vanilla Geralt.
I just couldn't stomach playing Scoia and that shitty Hawker Healer abuse.

BS? why just because you think so or what? You are not judge here to decide what is BS & what is not so chill. You can control monster & skellige passives. I mean you can at least destroy monster card or you can steal skellige base strength cards from their graveyard but there is no control over ST passive as if ST player win round & decided opp. to go 1st then opp. has to go 1st there is no choice, counter or anything available to change that. IMO ST passive is far superior then any other passive.

Are you going to argue that ST passive ability is better than Monsters and Skellige? Monsters can carry a 20+ card into next round and Skellige, for example, makes very strong cards like Ocvist and Roach even stronger. That's in addition to benefiting from wounding on both sides exclusively. Shall we open a thread that SK is OP because of that too and cry for the change? Well, it's a different story.

well, guess what? the game isn't sustained by the few hundred top players, and if the devs only focus on what they're saying instead of making a fair experience for new and middle-tier players, the game will die and the top players won't have a game to play.

Actually, let's say that a few thousands because right now everybody just jumping spots with few exceptions. And those few thousands don't choose ST Ambush... why is that?
As for everybody, there is a level of players that complain about weather is still being OP. People will always complain about things. The trick is to separate legit complaints from laziness.
Also, the vast majority plays net decks and don't even think about tweaking those. In fact, you can build a deck that easily counters Ambush and evens out with Henselt. Consume is a bit tougher but still beatable. A deck that is viable but none plays it. Now, tell me what deck can counter Henselt and be competitive against other decks as well? This should be an indicator.
I just started a new f2p account to test things and will post on my experience soon...

5 times dragoons, reveal the huge ambush in the 3rd round. 5 times dragoons, reveal the huge ambush in the 3rd round. 5 times dragoons, reveal the huge ambush in the 3rd round. 5 times dragoons, reveal the huge ambush in the 3rd round. 5 times dragoons, reveal the huge ambush in the 3rd round. 5 times dragoons, reveal the huge ambush in the 3rd round.

simple fact that when facing SC you can't do sh*t about that huge 28 strength sapper. does that sound fine to you? it actually may, but not being able to counter something or not have any ability against it is game breaking. there is currently only 1 immediate counter to ambush cards that you know is gonna make you lose the game and that's morenn but why give such ability to the faction that plays the ambush? this gives the SC double the power by operating a 20 strength sapper and when you opponent plays his sapper you morenn it... like double screwed.
the least change we can expect is to have a neutral card with the ability of morenn.
and don't mistake round 1 and 2 with 3, henselt monsters SK they all put out extreme power on round 1 and 2 but they run out of it in round 3 after long round 1s and 2s which SC is expert at elongating first 2 rounds. while SC has saved the beefed up the sapper. SC can put strength on board and compete with SK and MS with saskia and yen in round 1 and 2. by now it's not so hard to say your favourite faction is SC.

Ok.
First, five times Dragoons? This is the problem? You mean, not Triss+Dandellion+Baron+Siege Expert and Promote? You mean it's worse than 4 and 6 buff plus very plausible 3 more (with bodies on the board). Then you get your Towers out and Promote them all. Next round, rinse and repeat. And where's your immediate counter to 4 times gold promoting?
Second, why would you ever get to the 3rd round with Ambush?
I got 20 Sappers and 18 Turuviel Operated to me many times. It only gave me a read on their hand. Like sitting there with two 18 Toruviels and one Morenn? I can do whatever I choose to. The opponent however has no idea what's in my hand.

Ok, I fear that this isn't a debate. If you excuse me, I will not continue this until counter-arguments aren't brushed aside and just because that doesn't fit the narrative...


P.S. There's a new trend. And it's an ugly one, definitely will need a change from the devs. I was surprised they would change a card like that in the first place.

Cheers, people

 

[GW3NTLORD]

Just for the record. Two factions that got me to 4500 mmr were NR with Dethmold, Regis and Trololo and a weird Skellige with Morkvarg as a bait and vanilla Geralt. I just couldn't stomach playing Scoia and that shitty Hawker Healer abuse.

Nice to hear that.. Congo n Cheers

Are you going to argue that ST passive ability is better than Monsters and Skellige? Monsters can carry a 20+ card into next round and Skellige, for example, makes very strong cards like Ocvist and Roach even stronger. That's in addition to benefiting from wounding on both sides exclusively. Shall we open a thread that SK is OP because of that too and cry for the change? Well, it's a different story.

I don't always compare something only on strength as every faction is having different tactics. I hope you remember how powerful radovid control was & as I said every other faction ability have counter or something to deal with it....

Monster - you can always check what last card is going to stay on board & act or plan your strategy around that.
SK - graveyard stealing / weather or there are so many counter available to damage base strength.
NR - dbomb / dshack
NG - It's work on their side only & not directly impacts opp.
ST - If you are lucky in 1st round where ST players ignores & coin flips in your favor then for all 3 round opp. has to go 1st no matter what.

So I am talking about opp. control over faction passives where ST wins 4 sure & with ambush this makes way too powerful.

And lastly I don't want to argue with you or anyone here. As you have your opinions I have mine & I think in the end cdpr only going to decide what's going to be change in final version of game... Enjoy

 

[nhk3]

Ok.
First, five times Dragoons? This is the problem? You mean, not Triss+Dandellion+Baron+Siege Expert and Promote? You mean it's worse than 4 and 6 buff plus very plausible 3 more (with bodies on the board). Then you get your Towers out and Promote them all. Next round, rinse and repeat. And where's your immediate counter to 4 times gold promoting?
Second, why would you ever get to the 3rd round with Ambush?
I got 20 Sappers and 18 Turuviel Operated to me many times. It only gave me a read on their hand. Like sitting there with two 18 Toruviels and one Morenn? I can do whatever I choose to. The opponent however has no idea what's in my hand.

Ok, I fear that this isn't a debate. If you excuse me, I will not continue this until counter-arguments aren't brushed aside and just because that doesn't fit the narrative...

Dude, chill a bit.You're not debating because you've decided something and refuse to see an alternative point of view.
Ambush isn't OP because it's unbeatable, but because of how annoying it is to play around it. Plus ST typically runs a bunch of thunders and can scorch you 3-5 times, while you can't do the same to them. I'm pretty sure Consume is easily countered by ST, and Henselt can be curbed with a simple D-bomb/shackles. Meanwhile I can't shackle, D-bomb, scorch or do whatever interaction with ambush cards. I get a 28 Toruviel in my hand and the opponent emotes "Bet this will come as a surprise". Fun gameplay indeed.
I guess most ST players won't be running D-bomb so Henselt is the most viable against them, but should I really be forced to play an archetype I dislike just to be able to compete ?

 

[Flow008]

D-bomb and Scorch should affect ambush and it should be just balanced. What do you think ?

 

[Archpriest]

So I am talking about opp. control over faction passives where ST wins 4 sure & with ambush this makes way too powerful.

And this is totally situational. Sometimes it's strong, sometimes it isn't. Which isn't the case with Monsters and Skellige. NG and NR passive are just bad. Well, maybe wit hHenselt you can get additional 10-12 points but that's that.

And lastly I don't want to argue with you or anyone here. As you have your opinions I have mine & I think in the end cdpr only going to decide what's going to be change in final version of game... Enjoy

Argument is fine, fighting and personal insults aren't. Arguments are supposed to help improving this game. Unfortunately sometimes unfounded opinions based on emotions rather than facts stand in its way. Glad that you and me can present arguments and agree or disagree without getting too sensitive.

Cheers

Dude, chill a bit.You're not debating because you've decided something and refuse to see an alternative point of view.
Ambush isn't OP because it's unbeatable, but because of how annoying it is to play around it. Plus ST typically runs a bunch of thunders and can scorch you 3-5 times, while you can't do the same to them. I'm pretty sure Consume is easily countered by ST, and Henselt can be curbed with a simple D-bomb/shackles. Meanwhile I can't shackle, D-bomb, scorch or do whatever interaction with ambush cards. I get a 28 Toruviel in my hand and the opponent emotes "Bet this will come as a surprise". Fun gameplay indeed.
I guess most ST players won't be running D-bomb so Henselt is the most viable against them, but should I really be forced to play an archetype I dislike just to be able to compete ?

First of all, dude... I'm perfectly calm.
Second, I did not decided on anything. The facts are there, we just need to take a look at them.
Consume beats ambush easily. So does Henselt.
And you insist that to have a chance against Henselt people need to run D-Bomb and D-Shackles? How many of those? Thank you for making my point for me that you need a deck specifically constructed to counter Henselt but completely useless against anything else. Which isn't the case with Ambush. Now, can we see where the real problem lies?
As for Ambush being annoying ,many meta are/were annoying. Somehow it's annoying to those who don't want to change their decks even a little. We are not talking about broken things here like First Light, etc.
"Annoying" isn't a reason to nerf something.

D-bomb and Scorch should affect ambush and it should be just balanced. What do you think ?

Would you like for Scorch to affect Gold cards as well?

And welcome to the forums.

 

[frbfree]

Would you like for Scorch to affect Gold cards as well?

Yeah, but Ambush cards are not "gold cards". I can Shackle AND THEN Scorch a gold card. I can interact with gold cards, for all their newfound power, and all your complaints against Henselt. I can still interact with them.

I can't interact with buffed Toruviels or Ciarans. Ever. Because I can't target them while in ambush, and they aren't revealed until after I have surrendered my ability to act. You say that people should account for them, but there's nothing they can do to account for them. Spotters, provided you haven't passed can be addressed. Kayran, no matter how big he gets or gold he is, can be addressed. Even if I Bolt each Dragoon the second it hits the table, Toruviel now is an 18 Str creature that is immune to everything until after I am done.

You're mad that they made it harder to affect gold cards on the board. But at least they can be affected. I would rather play against Henselt all day and know that at most I can deal with a third of the gold spam, then have to consistently deal with my opponent playing two 24 Strength Toruviels that I can never ever touch.


EDIT - And, in addition, Toruviel and Ciaran don't even trigger Dol Blathana Trappers, because God only knows why. So even that defense is useless.

 

[Shadilay]

Just reached Rank 15 (didn't hurry, only have like an hour a day or so) and let me put it this way:
- I've played Hanslet from R13-R15 and literally FARMED ST control with likely 85% win rate.
- monsters destroy them completely too
- ambush is fine, half of the time it's a dead card ie. Shirru

I currently own most of the cards in game and played all the factions in rank mode, mainly NR and Monsters.
Dragoons buffing ambush cards is not an issue for experienced players, you can prevent it by forcing them
to drop their hand after 1st round loss. You can early pass on r3 OR just outvalue them and ignore it.

Monsters consume has a few weaknesses, yet in this meta they are powerful (weather and SK are kept at
bay) but NR just stomps most other decks, and the only reasonable counter is Radovid lol.

The game needs balance and I can easily imagine the ambush mechanic becoming an issue in the future, but I
urge CDPR not to kill interesting mechanics and go the Blizzard way.. What makes the game fun are the same
qualities other comparable games lack. And to conclude - CDPR PLEASE look at Duels of the Champions for
some GREAT inspirations. Clever mechanics and interactions with your opponent make the game interesting
but sometimes can cause frustration. On the other hand, the alternative is a bland and flat gameplay, with no
frills and an RNG nature. Please DON'T cave into the nerf bandwagon crowd. It will kill the game for sure.

 

[nhk3]

"Annoying" isn't a reason to nerf something.

How about non-interactive ?

 

[Tamacountry13]

Just because ST isn't the absolute best faction doesn't mean it shouldn't get a change.
Buffed Ambushes are a problem as you LITERALLY can't do anything about them. Every other mechanic has a form of counter play, Ambush only has Morenn which is a Scoia'tael exclusive card...
Getting given a buffed Ambush means that they have Morenn in thier hands is pretty much just a -1CA to you as you can't play it ever.

Their biggest weakness admittedly is losing round 1 and bleeding them round 2, if you lose round 1 for any reason however you have lost the game. With easy access to D-Bomb/Scorch in which they can use them 2-3 times reliable, round 1 isn't hard for them to win. They can play two extra cards after the opponent has passed to win round 1 and still have CA is round 3

 

[GW3NTLORD]

And this is totally situational. Sometimes it's strong, sometimes it isn't. Which isn't the case with Monsters and Skellige. NG and NR passive are just bad. Well, maybe wit hHenselt you can get additional 10-12 points but that's that.

Totally disagree here... for me ST passive is fix & as I said opp. don't have any control over it so how it's situational?

Yes I can may be little agree with monster passive as even though you manage to destroy high strength last card still monster passive going to keep something on board most of the time no matter what strength but..

SK nope it's very situational. NG / Monster can steal so many good cards from SK graveyard with visco / griffin / caretaker. Against ST special cards are there. NG most of the units are pretty high strength by default & main thing is SK resurrection is now not as good as it was at start. I think most of SK players are now only using 4 medics 3 freya & Sigrdrifa & 4 medics not last longs for all 3 rounds.

---

Btw just for clarification.. I never said ST or ST ambush is OP but the current ambush is totally undetectable & main prob is CA & As I said before CA is crucial element of this game to win. ST ambush is loosing again hensalt or monster coz may be both factions putting too much strength on board quickly that they don't care about st ambush going to add more strength or not as they are already have pretty good lead in strength so I am not saying it's op at all but..

The problem is mechanism of ambush which is not proper as this is strategy game & developers are trying to reduce RNG factor from game & just think when ST is going to get more ambush cards in future. That's going to be a real mess.

About Hensalt.. I was never in favor of promote ability as for me Legendary cards are gold for some reason & converting any card into gold don't makes any sense imo but that's me & may be I am wrong but still I am against it.

 

[Riven-Twain]

Moderator: Posts deleted. This topic has generated a noticeable amount of tension. If users cannot discuss their experiences and opinions regarding these two strategies without personal skirmishes, then it may be necessary to give this subject a rest for a while. This is the final warning. Any further incidents, and the topic will be closed.

 

[Flow008]

Would you like for Scorch to affect Gold cards as well?

And welcome to the forums.

No I thought it had to affect them as if they were revealed. If it's a gold card it would be converted into a silver card, if it has boosts it would return to its base strength. This will keep the "surprise" cards ambushes while giving a way to counter the overboosted cards.

Thank you =D

 

[Archpriest]

Totally disagree here... for me ST passive is fix & as I said opp. don't have any control over it so how it's situational?[/quoye]
We agree on disagree here then.

Yes I can may be little agree with monster passive as even though you manage to destroy high strength last card still monster passive going to keep something on board most of the time no matter what strength but..

Thanks to Ekimmara, people almost always manage to keep a unit under 20. I you used Igni before, then much higher.

SK nope it's very situational. NG / Monster can steal so many good cards from SK graveyard with visco / griffin / caretaker. Against ST special cards are there. NG most of the units are pretty high strength by default & main thing is SK resurrection is now not as good as it was at start. I think most of SK players are now only using 4 medics 3 freya & Sigrdrifa & 4 medics not last longs for all 3 rounds.

---

We're going to agree on disagree again...

Btw just for clarification.. I never said ST or ST ambush is OP but the current ambush is totally undetectable & main prob is CA & As I said before CA is crucial element of this game to win. ST ambush is loosing again hensalt or monster coz may be both factions putting too much strength on board quickly that they don't care about st ambush going to add more strength or not as they are already have pretty good lead in strength so I am not saying it's op at all but..

The problem is mechanism of ambush which is not proper as this is strategy game & developers are trying to reduce RNG factor from game & just think when ST is going to get more ambush cards in future. That's going to be a real mess.

About Hensalt.. I was never in favor of promote ability as for me Legendary cards are gold for some reason & converting any card into gold don't makes any sense imo but that's me & may be I am wrong but still I am against it.

You can't shut down neither wounding or promote either. The are ways to work around it just as with ambush. And since control decks disappeared with the latest patch and everybody's buffing, I honestly do not understand why there's so much angst against it.

Also, it's not just Henselt and Consume, there are other decks that compete with those and annihilate Ambush. At least one of them is Scoia. I will need to look it up but I'm pretty sure I have the best and overwhelming record against Ambush with another Scoia. And I don't run ambush cards or Morenn. Btw, that deck beats Henselt too and Consume is a tough fight but also winnable. It is susceptible to Skellige though.

No I thought it had to affect them as if they were revealed. If it's a gold card it would be converted into a silver card, if it has boosts it would return to its base strength. This will keep the "surprise" cards ambushes while giving a way to counter the overboosted cards.

Thank you =D

If it affects them as if they are revealed, what's the point in having ambush mechanics then? That would render them useless, worse than regular - the player doesn't benefit their strength because they're not revealed and opponent can do whatever he wants.

 

[Flow008]

If it affects them as if they are revealed, what's the point in having ambush mechanics then? That would render them useless, worse than regular - the player doesn't benefit their strength because they're not revealed and opponent can do whatever he wants.

I was talking about the dimeritium bomb. I should have said so.

 

[GW3NTLORD]

We agree on disagree here then.

Thanks to Ekimmara, people almost always manage to keep a unit under 20. I you used Igni before, then much higher.

We're going to agree on disagree again...

hahaha that's why I said "I don't want to argue with anyone" as even though arguments are ok many times it's hard to change someones perspective towards something as everyone knows their reasons for their opinion.

You can't shut down neither wounding or promote either. The are ways to work around it just as with ambush. And since control decks disappeared with the latest patch and everybody's buffing, I honestly do not understand why there's so much angst against it.

Also, it's not just Henselt and Consume, there are other decks that compete with those and annihilate Ambush. At least one of them is Scoia. I will need to look it up but I'm pretty sure I have the best and overwhelming record against Ambush with another Scoia. And I don't run ambush cards or Morenn. Btw, that deck beats Henselt too and Consume is a tough fight but also winnable. It is susceptible to Skellige though.

I am only against promote & that's not because it's winning or loosing against some faction or strong / weak against ant deck but as I said early Gold are Legendary cards & mostly the important characters & that's why golds are immune to many counters like weather / scorch / igni etc. & that's why I hate it that some faction having ability to turn any card into gold giving it legendary status & renders immune to many cards. Any ways I am not asking here for any promote change & this is quite off topic so it's good if we stop discussing this here any further.. Thanks & HNT

 

[DEERCG]

This topic has generated a noticeable amount of tension.

No, it's not. Gwent by itself was a reason. Here's just show how player experience about that - interact between them. That good chance show to develop team and hope they will give a resolution to fix this soon as possible. You can close this topic but problem till there and maybe other topic will rise up again.