Succubus

[IAxiiYourMother]

It gets even crazier if you steal say a 50 point Axeman which total into 92 point swing

Just think this through. If you only have that unit and succubus on the field and Succubus steals it you are not going to be 92 points ahead of your opponent. It isn't possible. You get a 50 STR unit and they get an 8 STR unit. So the value of Succubus is 42 points. (50-8=42) This would be great, and make succubus a 42 STR gold card unless they destroy the unit you got.

Vanilla Garelt -> +12 points to you

Triss -> 8 points + 4 dmg = +12 points to you

Succubus on 15 STR unit -> 15 points to you - 8 point you give to them = +7 points to you (awful for a gold card)

 

[Tamacountry13]

For the sake of example:
if Succubus were to put 8 on your side and scorch 15 on the other, the swing is 23.
15-0
0-8

if succubus is put on the other side and bring 15 to you, the swing is 7
15-0
8-15

Where do you get those 30 from? More importantly, does it show in numbers on the side of the board?

15-0 (Opponents leading by 15)
8-15 (Your leading by 7)
That IS a 22 point swing.

If you Scorched you still wouldn't be in the lead and if you played a 15 point unit you STILL wouldn't be in the lead even though they are worth 15 total points each.

Succubus is 22 as she causes you to take the lead by 7 points.
To lead by 7 points in those first two cases you would need to Scorch THEN place a 7 strength unit or place a 22 point unit

 

[Archpriest]

15-0 (Opponents leading by 15)
8-15 (Your leading by 7)
That IS a 22 point swing.

If you Scorched you still wouldn't be in the lead and if you played a 15 point unit you STILL wouldn't be in the lead even though they are worth 15 total points each.

Succubus is 22 as she causes you to take the lead by 7 points.
To lead by 7 points in those first two cases you would need to Scorch THEN place a 7 strength unit or place a 22 point unit

Sorry, not swing. Net worth, hehehe. I meant net worth.
After all it's what matters.

Cheers

 

[Tamacountry13]

Just think this through. If you only have that unit and succubus on the field and Succubus steals it you are not going to be 92 points ahead of your opponent. It isn't possible. You get a 50 STR unit and they get an 8 STR unit. So the value of Succubus is 42 points. (50-8=42) This would be great, and make succubus a 42 STR gold card unless they destroy the unit you got.

Vanilla Garelt -> +12 points to you

Triss -> 8 points + 4 dmg = +12 points to you

Succubus on 15 STR unit -> 15 points to you - 8 point you give to them = +7 points to you (awful for a gold card)

They also lose a 42 points from their side

 

[Tungdilboindil]

Tell me if I'm wrong, your initial values are 25 Opp and 10 You, after all it's ended things are: 18 Opp, 25 You. Your 7 comes out from the 25-18=7 right? (that's what I understand for "net gain"). (if this is right then keep reading, if it's wrong, skip the rest of the post and explain better where your 7 comes from)

But if you change the initial values, like Opp 60, You 30 --> Succubus steal 15 strength unit --> Opp 53, You 45, and you apply the same math: 45 - 53 is -8 which doesn't make much sense to me (referring to -8 as ''net gain'').

With how i mean ''power swing'' initial and final values are meaningless, because the power swing just refers on how strength shifted overall on the board from your perspective.
I'll try to explain again: let's take initial values of 25 Opp, 10 You, let's imagine that the succubus effect is immediate, so no other cards can be played. I play succubus on opponent's side: 33 Opp, 10 You, --> succubus steal 15 strength --> 18 Opp, 25 You. (so the power swing is 22 because the opponent lost 15 (stolen unit), I gained 15 (stolen unit) and opponend gained 8 (succubus) using the simple equation I written above, 15+15-8=22 )

(related to the initial values of 25 and 10 mentioned above) Initial difference of strength is -15 (you have less strength than the opponent), final difference of strength is +7 (you have more strength than the opponent) now if you subtract from -15 the final difference (+7) and you take the absolute value you get: | -15 - (+7) | = | -22 | = 22 which is the power swing I already mentioned multiple times.

This works in the same way with any initial value: 60 Opp, 30 You --> You play Succubus --> 68 Opp, 30 You --> Succubus steals 15 strength unit --> 53 Opp, 45 You.
The initial difference is -30 (the minus it's there because from my perspective I have less strength than the opponent). The final difference is -8 (the minus it's still there because I still have less strength than then opponent). As above now I will subtract from the initial difference (-30) the final difference (-8) and I'll take the absolute value: | -30 - (-8) | = | -22 | = 22 which is again the same power swing I mentioned before.

To summarize, if the card Succubus, with a base strength of 8 at this point in time, steals a 15 strength unit from the opponent's side, the "power swing" made by this card is 22 regardless of any initial and/or final values of ''side strength'' (the total strength of the individual sides of the board), in other words, 22 represents the absolute variation of strength in relation to the difference of your side total strength and your opponent's one.

If I sound too complex it's probably because I'm studying engineering, the actual calculation is fast and simple, however I do not know how to explain my definition of ''power swing'' (which I believe is the same of Tamacountry13) any better.

 

[Tungdilboindil]

After all it's what matters.

Well, if you want a simple way on how much playing a card if going to affect you in a positive way, my definition of power swing comes in handy, the bigger, the better, and if you subtract the power swing from the difference between your side total strength and the enemy's one, you'll also have how much points you'll be in advantage (or disadvantage) without the need of calculating individual final values of side strength.

 

[Archpriest]

The swing is ok and completely understandable.
The total on the side of the board it's what's important, i.e. net points you get form the card after all is said and done. Implying that a +7 net is somehow translates into +22 is misleading. 22 is a swing, net worth of a card is 7.
My last example for today:
Both sides have 1 card, each is 10. I play, end result (disregarding the timer) is 8-20. Three cards were played, I played 2 cards. His net loss is -2, my net gain is +2, the swing is 4.
Yet I played one gold card more and gave him gold base strength. Was it worth it? This is why we think that the card is highly situational and not as good as it's perceived to be.

 

[Archpriest]

Well, if you want a simple way on how much playing a card if going to affect you in a positive way, my definition of power swing comes in handy, the bigger, the better, and if you subtract the power swing from the difference between your side total strength and the enemy's one, you'll also have how much points you'll be in advantage (or disadvantage) without the need of calculating individual final values of side strength.

Absolutely. The bigger the swing, the higher the value. I stated it a few pages back

Becker's mirror is epic though...

P.S. Thank you all for the engaging and informative discussion. +rep everywhere

 

[TheShift]

Why fight? There are much better ways to work off excess energy…​

 

[Tamacountry13]

:look:Nips?

 

[Lexandre]

Just think this through. If you only have that unit and succubus on the field and Succubus steals it you are not going to be 92 points ahead of your opponent. It isn't possible. You get a 50 STR unit and they get an 8 STR unit. So the value of Succubus is 42 points. (50-8=42) This would be great, and make succubus a 42 STR gold card unless they destroy the unit you got.

Vanilla Garelt -> +12 points to you

Triss -> 8 points + 4 dmg = +12 points to you

Succubus on 15 STR unit -> 15 points to you - 8 point you give to them = +7 points to you (awful for a gold card)

this is wrong, you completely ignore the fact that the opponent loses strength

its like saying geralt igni is awful because he is just a 4 strength card

 

[leonardo_santoso]

Just think this through. If you only have that unit and succubus on the field and Succubus steals it you are not going to be 92 points ahead of your opponent. It isn't possible. You get a 50 STR unit and they get an 8 STR unit. So the value of Succubus is 42 points. (50-8=42) This would be great, and make succubus a 42 STR gold card unless they destroy the unit you got.

The Value of Succubus is not 42, why? If her value is 42 then you will still lose the exchange because the enemy would still have a 50 str unit + 8 from the succubus. To keep this as simple as possible consider this

The opponent only have 1 card with an str of 50. You have no card at all, so the score on the board is 50 - 0. Now you use scorch, the score on the board is now 0 - 0. This means that scorch value is 50 STR, neither win the game it's a draw

Consider the same situation but with succubus in play, from 50 - 0 the score is now 8 - 50. See the difference? If you said succubus value is only 42 how come you win on this situation while on the above you have a scorch which clearly has a value of 50 but the result is a draw?

So yes, you are not 92 point ahead but the total value that you are getting is 92.

 

[leonardo_santoso]

The swing is ok and completely understandable.
The total on the side of the board it's what's important, i.e. net points you get form the card after all is said and done. Implying that a +7 net is somehow translates into +22 is misleading. 22 is a swing, net worth of a card is 7.
My last example for today:
Both sides have 1 card, each is 10. I play, end result (disregarding the timer) is 8-20. Three cards were played, I played 2 cards. His net loss is -2, my net gain is +2, the swing is 4.
Yet I played one gold card more and gave him gold base strength. Was it worth it? This is why we think that the card is highly situational and not as good as it's perceived to be.

Lol what are you talking about your net gain is not + 2, from 10 to 20 your net gain is +10, where did you get + 2?. And since your enemy net loss is -2, you have an advantages of +12 now. That means succubus net power is +12. With just one succubus, your opponent will need to play a card with +12 str to break even now. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

 

[Archpriest]

Lol what are you talking about your net gain is not + 2, from 10 to 20 your net gain is +10, where did you get + 2?. And since your enemy net loss is -2, you have an advantages of +12 now. That means succubus net power is +12.

Lol? you mean you're laughing at your inability to understand the post? Ok then.
I'll try to talk slowly: you play two cards (18) that net you 20 compared to opponent's one (10) that nets him 8. The swing is 4, his -2, yours +2. The net gain of the card is +2. you played two cards worth of 18 and ended up with 20.

With just one succubus, your opponent will need to play a card with +12 str to break even now. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

Or Igni, or Scorh, or weather... irrelevant part of the post here, tbh.
What makes Succubus worth it is high swings. That's why we call it a very situational card.

Do you understand it now or want me to draw a picture too?

 

[leonardo_santoso]

I'll try to talk slowly: you play two cards (18) that net you 20 compared to opponent's one (10) that nets him 8. The swing is 4, his -2, yours +2. The net gain of the card is +2. you played two cards worth of 18 and ended up with 20.

Ok in that case answer me this, If I play not a succubus but any card that has an str of 10 without any skill, then the net gain of the card is 0? Like you said with the succubus, you play two cards (18) that net you 20 so your net gain is +2. So on my example you play two cards (20) that net you 20 so your net gain is 0?

Or Igni, or Scorh, or weather... irrelevant part of the post here, tbh. What makes Succubus worth it is high swings. That's why we call it a very situational card.

Every card that has a chance to turn the table is situational. Igni, scorch, bekkers, villentretenmerth etc all of them is situational, are all of them not worth it?

 

[Madras_Pfeffer]

I just had a match where my opponent played her - never saw her before so I didn't know that the 'seduced' unit counts as a spying unit on the opposite site. So playing NG with John Calveit or Treason is really bad for the Succubus as you can easily can get your card back AND have a 8 strength gold card on your side then.

 

[TheShift]

I just had a match where my opponent played her - never saw her before so I didn't know that the 'seduced' unit counts as a spying unit on the opposite site. So playing NG with John Calveit or Treason is really bad for the Succubus as you can easily can get your card back AND have a 8 strength gold card on your side then.

Yup.. i have lost a few times because of that, but as in all moves,there can be a downside...i use some precaution now lol :eredinfacepalm:

 

[metalmaniac21]

Even though this card is already good enough, especially against Kayran (hello meta), it eats the valuable gold space. I think Succubus should work in two ways, drop units to enemy side too. I know it's a crude move, but how else monsters should kill off Lugos' whale, for example? Lacerate/Epidemic into it? Are you nuts?

 

[frbfree]

This would be a fantastic foil to Fake Ciri, if you could play it on your own side.

 

[Archpriest]

Ok in that case answer me this, If I play not a succubus but any card that has an str of 10 without any skill, then the net gain of the card is 0? Like you said with the succubus, you play two cards (18) that net you 20 so your net gain is +2. So on my example you play two cards (20) that net you 20 so your net gain is 0?

That is correct. For a card like Sheldon Skaggs its net gain is 0. Its worth is 10.

Every card that has a chance to turn the table is situational. Igni, scorch, bekkers, villentretenmerth etc all of them is situational, are all of them not worth it?

Igni and Villentrettenmert gain is usually similar or comparable (for each) because of their ability and the way they played. Plus, they put value on your side of the board, 4 and 7 respectively.
You won't play Scorch to burn your own card and the Bekker's mirror:

Becker's mirror is epic though...

Which brings me to another: Succubus is Legendary Gold. Bekker's Mirror is epic and doesn't put any value for your opponent.
Remember Phillipa? She can be devastating at times and so does Succubus. But both cards are highly situational. It's hard to recall other such instances.