The boss level

[Meccanical]

A "boss" character really only should be someone just as capable as you are in this game really. Therefore not really a boss at all, just a really strong person or persons who may engage you on equal footing.

I heard in Witcher 3 they are going for something like that right? No more boss fights, just really strong enemies. I assume it will be the same here.

 

[Mister_Lizard]

I agree with this, and this has been brought up in other threads as well. Also absolutely no staged fights that require that you do certain things to weaken the enemy or make it so that there is only one way to with the fight, or lose it for that matter. I'd like to see this game redefine how climactic encounters are dealt with, allowing for multiple avenues of success that make playing different roles viable and engaging. Going back to the "pacifist playthrough" discussion I would like to be able to conduct proxy wars with corporate and other high resource enemies.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I think that you are missing the point, tanks sure do vary in prices but if you look at starter private jet and m1 Abrams tank they cost anywhere from 4 to 7 millions $ . Can't think of any corporation that can't afford that.

I dislike the term "Military grade hardware" when it used as equivalent to "top of the line" I served from several years in artillery core and can say that private sector has much better equipment available (maybe rivaled by special forces groups that do get the fancy toys).

Why can't an organization that has multiple billion profit spend a few mills on security? Especially that maintenance cost is much smaller after initial purchase.

I'll grant you that I can not think of none militarized equipment to present but that's because in reality only military does the fighting. Apart from that, Apache attack helicopters cost about 18- 20 mill a pop. What about the walkers we saw in concept art the big brother of ED 209 (Robocop)? And if I let my imagination fly (or borrow already used ideas), gundams, Iron man suit, Fully cybered out ninjas, a new cocktail of drugs combined with brain-dancing that turn man into fearless killing tool with pin point precession and quickened reaction that feels not pain. I doubt that you need me to go over every main villian from the action movies in the 80s-90s

Spoken like a true 'Plank' (Feel free to look up the reference boys and girls.) You need to stop thinking like a soldier and start thinking like a corporate executive.

Yes, the military does most of the fighting today, but in the dark future the streets of most major cities are more dangerous than some warzones. There were 4 corporate wars, (wars fought between corporations with private armies,) in less than 30 years in the Cyberpunk world. (Ok, the 3rd war was virtual, but it still counts, kind of.) The militaries of governments does not fight the same was as the military of a corporation.

To get into the correct mindset, I would appreciate it if everyone read the following FAN WRITTEN WARHAMMER 40K DOCUMENT. It is a true work of art and totally 'on the money'.

On to the main course:

Currently, the production cost of an M1 Abrams is about $8.6m, (so almost double your estimate.) And the far superior, (imo,) Challenger 2 comes in at £4.2m, (or about $6.55m.) Each shot they fire from their main gun is going to cost upwards of £50,000, (or $78,000.) The equivelant tank of the US Army in 2020 is the M-11 MBT which comes in at a staggering 16.4m EB, (or $32.8m.) You can pick up a private Jet for under $1m.
They are not even close to the same price range.

But the biggest cost is not the tank itself or even the ammo, (100 rounds costs more than the tank after all...) It's the collateral damage.
Rolling a tank out is going to cost a fortune in torn up road, but lets say that our trusty tin-can-o-death has specialised treads. What happens when it misses with a round or two, or clips a building on a bad turn? Innocent passers by? You're now talking hundreds of millions in damages, if not billions. A good chunk of that cost will be company property. I don't think that would count as beiong tax deducatble either...

This doesn't even begin to cover the fact that a tank is not exactly a 'subtle' peice of kit. It's not like Mr Arasaka is going to walk into the local police station and apply for a permit for his MBT. Can you imagine the bribes that would be needed to get the authorities to sign off on allowing a private corporation to field tanks in civilian commercial, industrial and residential areas? I believe the best estimate I can come up with is "Shit-Tons o' Money!"

Did I forget to mention that one of the worst environments for tanks is dense urban terrain, due to the limited maneuverability and field of view?

In short, there are much cheaper, simpler and efficient means of achieving similar levels of firepower and defence possesed by a tank that are open to the corporations.

As for that walker, (not plural, there was one,) many of us, (myself included,) prefer to deny its existance. Mike Pondsmith gave a perfect explanation as to why walkers like that just don't work in real life. (Have a look at some of the threads about it, there are several on the forum already.)

Gundams... No. No. Really. No means NO!!!

Iron Man suit. There are forms of it in 2020, they are called ACPA, (Assisted Combat Personel Armour,) or "Power Armour". The issue there is that they are just basically bullet sponges, and the point of the exercise is to avoid that.

Fully Cybered Ninja's on drugs. Now you're thinking like a 'punk.

I would like to see the ability to fail a boss fight. He gets away, you end up retreating or getting picked up by a trauma team. The game does not end, no asking to load last save/checkpoint. you lost he won, the game keeps going and the consequences of your loss effect the game world if not the story. Now he is harder to find, hires better security, invests in better tech, gets cybered up. He may leave you alone, he may hunt you down personally, or his faction will be more aggressive to you, or any number of other things. So many times in a game a "boss" fight is a win or reload affair.

I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it so much I want your babies.

 

[primephreak]

I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it so much I want your babies.

oh my...
Oh MY

um... Thank you

A "boss" character really only should be someone just as capable as you are in this game really. Therefore not really a boss at all, just a really strong person or persons who may engage you on equal footing.

I would love there to be a Counter to you, an NPC actively thwarting your plans and getting in your way. You go Fixer, he goes Cop. You go Corp he goes Media. Gets as powerful as you and interferes as much as he can. Though not all the time that would be annoying.

 

[Sardukhar]

Chris..

WALL OF TEXT. OHMIGOD.

Also your link went to this: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/images/asciill2.png

So..yeah?

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

I like where this thread is going, glad I'm not the minority in this opinion. I've always thought "boss fights" of any ilk are silly.

What I would like to see is the choice to fight a boss or not, no requirement in order to beat the game (in fact I don't want there to be any way to beat the game, aside from meeting goals you determine).

One boss moment in a game I thought was particularly good was the end of the first mission in Deus Ex HR, you get a choice whether to kill the leader of the rebels or convince him to let his hostage go. Probably the best example of a good ending to a linear mission I've seen in a game.

Part of what I love about Cyberpunk, Film Noir, etc. Is the idea that your preconcieved notions may not actually be the reality, you are not necessarily the moral authority and the world is more complex then you think. I'd like chances to talk to the big evil corp head, and maybe decide that while his organization is evil, he himself may be the best person for the job and letting him stay in as CEO might in fact be the best for the world.
Of course there should also be the option to kill him outright, capture him and use him as a tool (or as an adviser ala. Kings), or just assassinate his character and watch his empire fall apart on it's own volition. Essentially, no pre-determined world changing, or save the world storylines. Your just a player in the world just trying to make your way, and understand whats going on, or you could in fact be the evil one, it's all relative.

 

[JeromAsdert]

Spoken like a true 'Plank' (Feel free to look up the reference boys and girls.) You need to stop thinking like a soldier and start thinking like a corporate executive.

Yes, the military does most of the fighting today, but in the dark future the streets of most major cities are more dangerous than some warzones. There were 4 corporate wars, (wars fought between corporations with private armies,) in less than 30 years in the Cyberpunk world. (Ok, the 3rd war was virtual, but it still counts, kind of.) The militaries of governments does not fight the same was as the military of a corporation.

To get into the correct mindset, I would appreciate it if everyone read the following FAN WRITTEN WARHAMMER 40K DOCUMENT. It is a true work of art and totally 'on the money'.

On to the main course:

Currently, the production cost of an M1 Abrams is about $8.6m, (so almost double your estimate.) And the far superior, (imo,) Challenger 2 comes in at £4.2m, (or about $6.55m.) Each shot they fire from their main gun is going to cost upwards of £50,000, (or $78,000.) The equivelant tank of the US Army in 2020 is the M-11 MBT which comes in at a staggering 16.4m EB, (or $32.8m.) You can pick up a private Jet for under $1m.
They are not even close to the same price range.

But the biggest cost is not the tank itself or even the ammo, (100 rounds costs more than the tank after all...) It's the collateral damage.
Rolling a tank out is going to cost a fortune in torn up road, but lets say that our trusty tin-can-o-death has specialised treads. What happens when it misses with a round or two, or clips a building on a bad turn? Innocent passers by? You're now talking hundreds of millions in damages, if not billions. A good chunk of that cost will be company property. I don't think that would count as beiong tax deducatble either...

This doesn't even begin to cover the fact that a tank is not exactly a 'subtle' peice of kit. It's not like Mr Arasaka is going to walk into the local police station and apply for a permit for his MBT. Can you imagine the bribes that would be needed to get the authorities to sign off on allowing a private corporation to field tanks in civilian commercial, industrial and residential areas? I believe the best estimate I can come up with is "Shit-Tons o' Money!"

Did I forget to mention that one of the worst environments for tanks is dense urban terrain, due to the limited maneuverability and field of view?

In short, there are much cheaper, simpler and efficient means of achieving similar levels of firepower and defence possesed by a tank that are open to the corporations.

As for that walker, (not plural, there was one,) many of us, (myself included,) prefer to deny its existance. Mike Pondsmith gave a perfect explanation as to why walkers like that just don't work in real life. (Have a look at some of the threads about it, there are several on the forum already.)

Gundams... No. No. Really. No means NO!!!

Iron Man suit. There are forms of it in 2020, they are called ACPA, (Assisted Combat Personel Armour,) or "Power Armour". The issue there is that they are just basically bullet sponges, and the point of the exercise is to avoid that.

Fully Cybered Ninja's on drugs. Now you're thinking like a 'punk.

The OCD in me demands that I clarify your statement about prices, don't take it as any attempt to argue, I am doing it to just get rid of the itch.
Tank shells comes as well in variety of prices. As you've said some are more expensive than others. One doesn't need a top of the line tank to roughen up people, twenty year old tank is still a god damn tank, It just costs a friction of a cost (as militarized organizations are trying to get rid of them to upgrade to newer model). If we look at the 120 MM ammunition we can go as cheap as 800$ per shot of course there are fancy Tank Extended Range Munition-Kinetic Energy, a guided sabot round for long-range shots that requires a laser rangefinder or designator, those do cost 30k $ again don't need to spend the big buck.

Price badgering aside, what I trying to say is that, if a scene starts with you barging into a CEO office and him pulling two german Uzis (known a MP2, though him pulling MP7 would be more likely, much classier *rubs his chin with a dreamy smile*) out of his Armani jacket as he dives behind cover I wouldn't put it past the same devs to put a tank in that CEO private garage. Or send an attack helicopter to shoot out windows and open space as you make your way to the top/bottom floor.

I don't want that to happen, all I am saying that we all saw it happen in multitude of games.

To stress the point that I want to make, I don't say or want the devs to do it, I am saying that there are multiple ways to make a prolonged and contrived boss battle,most of all I say that we do not need it at all to get a good and satisfying narrative closure. Hell, there is nothing I'd enjoy more myself than having a game carry one with my failed attempts.

 

[Lolssi83.811]

I see I'm not not needed here and you have it all under control. Good job!

Also I wanna have Prime's babies also.

 

[schiff]

I like where this thread is going, glad I'm not the minority in this opinion. I've always thought "boss fights" of any ilk are silly.

What I would like to see is the choice to fight a boss or not, no requirement in order to beat the game (in fact I don't want there to be any way to beat the game, aside from meeting goals you determine).

One boss moment in a game I thought was particularly good was the end of the first mission in Deus Ex HR, you get a choice whether to kill the leader of the rebels or convince him to let his hostage go. Probably the best example of a good ending to a linear mission I've seen in a game.

That was a great executed bit of human revolution, putting back stealth for a moment and leaving things up to either lethal or non lethal.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, it was superb and broght me great hope for the other "boss fights". Which was promptly flushed. Until the DLC, where you may not even have the boss fight.
Organic.

 

[Meccanical]

At least they admitted they made a horrible mistake and promptly fixed it.

Some devs would sneer at you and just call you entitled.

 

[dragonbird]

At least they admitted they made a horrible mistake and promptly fixed it.

Some devs would sneer at you and just call you entitled.

Which reminds me...

What I don't want. Two possible enemies at the end of the game, depending on the choices you made. And, regardless of the choices you made, you still have to fight both of them.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Which reminds me...

What I don't want. Two possible enemies at the end of the game, depending on the choices you made. And, regardless of the choices you made, you still have to fight both of them.

What about the possibility of having no enemies or muiltiple enemies depending on player actions, resulting in non or even many fights to resolve the issues?

 

[Sardukhar]

I'd like to see no enemies at the end of the game, but that's because I loved Planescape Torment.

A combat denoument could be doable, but that last half hour or hour could be more resolving issues with conversation or action choices and consequences. You can defeat your enemy, but unless you opt to cut his head off, I'd like to see some kind of choice of last words or even an actual brief conversation where your choices in that conversation affect what happens next.

If we have to have fights at the end, I vote for how Equilibrium does it. Surprising and quick.

 

[dragonbird]

I'd like to see no enemies at the end of the game, but that's because I loved Planescape Torment.

A combat denoument could be doable, but that last half hour or hour could be more resolving issues with conversation or action choices and consequences. You can defeat your enemy, but unless you opt to cut his head off, I'd like to see some kind of choice of last words or even an actual brief conversation where your choices in that conversation affect what happens next.

If we have to have fights at the end, I vote for how Equilibrium does it. Surprising and quick.

Letho

Agreed, and an avoidance of a huge linear end-game would be very, very desirable. Sometimes those corridors are much too long, and I'd consider it a weak point on both Witcher games.

 

[schiff]

Yeah, it was superb and broght me great hope for the other "boss fights". Which was promptly flushed. Until the DLC, where you may not even have the boss fight.
Organic.

At very least that wasn't the last good part. The dialogue system was the best thing from that game. The related aug was also good

 

[Decatonkeil]

At very least that wasn't the last good part. The dialogue system was the best thing from that game. The related aug was also good

I never used the aug and did all those stages perfectly. I felt like such a negotiator! XD
One thing that I liked a lot from the negotiations in DE:HR was that, even though the technology for facial mocap or animation wasn't nearly as advanced as in LA Noir, there were some very clever touches in the body language of the characters: I instantly dedicated my attention to David Sarif constantly showing the palms of his hands, which is traditionally associated with pretended frankness, which made me in turn automatically distrust him. Of course, Sarif is an entrepreneur with an image that aims at family values and general philanthropy, so it makes sense that he simply behaves this way as a part of this image, the same way he dresses himself in a way and has his cyberarm customized with unaggressive themes (flowers).

Now, maybe in both DE:HR and LA Noir these 'tics' are kind of overacted (I only played some early stages of LA Noir in a friend's place, and even though this friend is way too noisy to even know what the fuck is going on in the game he's letting you play, hear the dialogues, etc... I did perfect... I know, world's greatest detective) it may be for the best. It's kind of in place for enemy routines or enemies telegraphing their next move in some way.

 

[schiff]

Sarif also kept calling adam "son".
Very Daedalus.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I instantly dedicated my attention to David Sarif constantly showing the palms of his hands, which is traditionally associated with pretended frankness, which made me in turn automatically distrust him.

Don't forget it is also a sign of feigned placidity and submission. I used to use it all the time when I was a bouncer. It's prime manipulation. He also partially covered his mouth with this hand a lot, (ala "The Thinker",) another classic trait of someone being deceptive.

His voice creeped me out too.

Also, did anyone else notice that the chess pieces on the board in his office are all the same colour?

 

[227]

What I don't want. Two possible enemies at the end of the game, depending on the choices you made. And, regardless of the choices you made, you still have to fight both of them.

The bitterness is strong in you, padawan, but you forgot that they have to justify fighting you with ridiculous reasons that are completely forced and contrary to everything established about their characters leading up to that encounter.

I'd like to see no enemies at the end of the game, but that's because I loved Planescape Torment.

Technically, Ignus/Vhailor could be considered a mandatory boss fight at the end of Planescape if you have the stats/items to peacefully work things out with Transcendent jerkface. Er, unless you off the one corresponding to your alignment beforehand. Nitpicking, probably, but Fallout is probably a better example. Also, I think you can talk down the final boss in Arcanum without any major encounters in the "boss level," though he attacked me anyway last time I tried. Pretty sure it was a bug, though it totally fit the theme of him being a nihilist dick.

I'd like to see some kind of choice of last words or even an actual brief conversation where your choices in that conversation affect what happens next.

Have you ever played Alpha Protocol and joined Halbech, only to betray Leland at the end? I'd definitely be down with more stuff like that.