ammo pickups, or the deep pockets issue

[Rawls]

I'm kind of iffy about the idea of running around a bustling metropol wearing an ever enlargening backpack (as if you were going camping) full of junk and guns and drugs and shit and metallic bodyparts.

Like I said, I don't think it should be obligatory, just helpful for concealing some things. And I think your attire should have a big effect on which types of people are predisposed to like or trust you.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Like I said, I don't think it should be obligatory, just helpful for concealing some things. And I think your attire should have a big effect on which types of people are predisposed to like or trust you.

In 2020, its basically described as an Outfit, a secondary inventory that allows one to hold more but the backpack itself doesn't have to be on your character at all times. If the players has a vehicle, the bag can just stashed there. Its optional and idk if its even part of gameplay, as much as part of the story. Games already do this in different ways anyway, it just make much more sense with how 2020 uses it and the Last of US made it quite literal with actually getting into the backpack. It should be an option in 2077

 

[lord_blex]

Like I said, I don't think it should be obligatory

heh. I'm into roleplaying a character, but if there is a way to haul more stuff around I (and many others) would be unlikely to not take it. unless there are serious downsides to it.

 

[Calistarius]

I don't tend to really roleplay my characters all that much when I play (atleast when it comes to items and equipment and inventory stuff... I do try and keep my characters personality somewhat consistent though)... so if I am given an option in the game to have some kind of additional inventory slots (like in a vehicle or something), then I would use it... even if said inventory space did not really fit with the character I created... or even if said inventory space came with some levels of annoyance to them, at which point I would endure the annoyance because it would still increase my available inventory space.

Take for example the games Skyrim, Fallout 3/4 and New Vegas... companions on those games where really annoying to me... due to that they tended to get in the way in combat, would do stupid shit that would cause problems for me (like pulling in more enemies), etc... but I endured it, I keeped them around, just because of the fact that they increased my inventory space.

So I would have no problems really with having additional inventory space, even if it went against my characters concept, or it being annoying to me for one reason or another, or if it broke the games meta, or broke the reality of it all (like being able to carry 100 weapons at the same time or something), or what ever. If there is an option for me to have an increased inventory space, "legally" in the game that is, then I would take it instantly. XD

But, if a game only supplies me with a very limited inventory space, and/or limited amount of weight that can be carried, then I am compleatly fine with that... and I will just spend more time on hauling gear back and forth when needed and possible.


My brother, how ever, tends to not have any patience what so ever with any of that... and as such he will put unlimited (and/or "no weight") inventory mods in most games he playes... even if it is the first time ever that he playes them (atleast after he figures out what kind of a system the game has/is, and that there are such mods available... if not, then he will find the console commands for how to increase the weight/number limits, or try to do it manually with editing gamefiles, etc). So since he has no patience at all for having to maintain such systems, he would mod/console-command the hell out of CP2077 when he got his hands on it... and not only when it comes to the inventory system (he does it with a lot of other things in games as well)... even if those mods/commands would essentually break the game (as in the game getting to easy or something). He tends to mod the hell out of most games he playes.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Take for example the games Skyrim, Fallout 3/4 and New Vegas... companions on those games where really annoying to me... due to that they tended to get in the way in combat, would do stupid shit that would cause problems for me (like pulling in more enemies), etc...

Same here.

I think it would be interesting if CDPR made CP2077 a blobber where you create a full party (of let's say 4 characters plus 2 hireables who could be anyone you bumbed into at the street or some more fleshed out characters designed to be "partymembers") and control them as a single entity. Like Might and Magic X, Starcrawlers and upcoming Bard's Tale 4. That won't happen of course, but a game like that would be really interesting as no such thing has ever been done to my knowledge, "a modern storyheavy blobber in the Cyberpunk setting".

 

[RLKing1969]

Here's the deal and I actually wrote a guide book, if you will, for my pen and paper game that actually summarizes my point, but I will give the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of said document: (And let's try and think of this in a reasonable, realistic manner, folks): Think about how you step outside of your house every morning. Now, imagine if you lived in an armed society (within reason, folks. The cops would still nail your ass if you were packing a rocket launcher, an smg or an assault rifle, so GET REAL). On an average, in an armed society, most folks would probably be packing a light handgun at best, unless they were expecting some serious sh*t to go down. And if they knew which end was the operating end, they probably wouldn't pack much more than a spare clip in their sock. The heavy artillery, provided they could afford it, would more than likely, be at home/ in the trunk or what have you. Pack any more than that, and I would guess, the cops would probably be watching the individual like a hawk for shit to go down...Bad news for "Punkers" trying to keep a low profile.; Something to think about, no?

 

[Helmic]

I think people are confusing pen and paper RPG immersion with video game design. There's quite a bit of suspensions of disbelief we've got to work with when we're talking about video games. Very few people are ever going to complain about being able to carry your entire inventory with you in Dark Souls, because functionally an inventory limit would only serve to make you backtrack to a bonfire and redo a section you aren't struggling with. Dark Souls manages to be an incredibly atmospheric game despite what may look like a glaring flaw in its depiction of reality, and in fact would become less atmospheric if you did have to micromanage your inventory because an inordinate amount of play time would be spent in menus rather than playing the game.

And it does this while still having an encumbrance system! Dark Souls has two inventory systems, the one that's your bag of holding that just carries all your loot and junk and that doubles a repository of cryptic contextual lore and the one that depicts what's actually being carried on your person for use in combat. Heavy armor makes you move slowly, using backup weapons also weighs you down.

Meanwhile, in a tabletop RPG we do something that's pretty much the same. What GM in the history of mankind has ever actually tracked encumbrance in anything? Precisely two, an angry old man and the poor kid he's raised in his basement, isolated form the rest of society, to do the same. Every GM just abstracts it away by saying you've got your stuff stashed in a cart or a car or a hideout and if the party wants to swap stuff around the GM just says "OK, you do that, now you're back so what do you do now?" Still not wasting any precious time on depicting something that the game isn't about.

Backpacks aren't thematically appropriate for the setting, this isn't a wilderness survival where characters are expected to carry everything they own on their literal backs. Everyone should have at least enough property to hold their stuff, whether that be a rented storage unit, a safehouse, a car, a shopping cart, what the hell ever. But it is super thematic to worry about concealment of what's being carried. Pistols suck compared to automatic longarms, but the former are more closely associated with cyberpunk because it's something that can be hidden.

So why not just take a page from Dark Souls and go with what RLKing1969 suggests? Unlimited storage abstracted away as being kept at another location guarded by someone that knows better than to peek under the tarp, but anything you can use that has to be on your person has a Conspicuous rating. Things like holdout pistols have a really low rating, and embedded cybernetic weapons like spurs have a rating of 0 as they hide in your limbs. Anything that draws attention has a higher rating, and your overall Concealment rating is determined by the most conspicuous piece of gear you've got equipped. Having both a holdout pistol and an assault rifle is a bit counterproductive as everyone's going to see that big 'ole assault rifle, so when you're not going in guns blazing it's important to have weapons that match the situation.

Some gear might allow you to conceal other weapons, trenchcoats might replace the relatively high Conspicuous rating of weapons that fit in them with the reasonably low Conspicuous rating of the trenchcoat. Said trenchcoat itself would have a higher Conspicuous rating than if you were wearing regular street clothes, but for walking down in the gutters of the city it's just fine. Big weapons like rocket launchers might fit in cases that themselves are pretty Conspicuous, but that's still better than having the weapon just slung over your shoulder. You still have to spend precious seconds taking them out of their case before using them, though, a trade off that makes them useless compared to just taking an SMG tucked away in your coat unless you know that your'e going to be needing that rocket launcher for an extended action sequence.

It avoids the pitfalls of having super fiddly inventory management while still giving you a reason to not run around like a super soldier all the time. Anything that has a Conspicuous rating has to be picked up first at a checkpoint or safe house or whatever, but everything else is just in your general inventory. You can choose to carry Conspicuous items you find or buy and accept any new rating you get from it, or you can have it sent to your storage for free (so something like walking past a security checkpoint unarmed and then buying a gun after the checkpoint or beating someone up to steal theirs is a valid strategy). It's not "realistic" but neither's much of the setting, the important bit is that you're behaving more like you have something to hide, like you're a lowlife avoiding the law.

 

[Snowflakez]

I think people are confusing pen and paper RPG immersion with video game design. There's quite a bit of suspensions of disbelief we've got to work with when we're talking about video games.

Meanwhile, in a tabletop RPG we do something that's pretty much the same. What GM in the history of mankind has ever actually tracked encumbrance in anything? Precisely two, an angry old man and the poor kid he's raised in his basement, isolated form the rest of society, to do the same. Every GM just abstracts it away by saying you've got your stuff stashed in a cart or a car or a hideout and if the party wants to swap stuff around the GM just says "OK, you do that, now you're back so what do you do now?" Still not wasting any precious time on depicting something that the game isn't about.

You're usually right that a DM isn't going to make you worry about stuff like vials, potions, rations and water but a good DM will absolutely force his players to be choosy about the other stuff they bring with them. You shouldn't be carrying an entire armory around with you from Point A to Point B. If the fighter wants to bring 3 greatswords strapped to his back, 2 greataxes, a longsword, a bow, a quiver of arrows and a few daggers with him, the DM should probably get that under control. Similarly, if the Ranger wants to bring 600 arrows and the rogue 90 daggers to toss about, most DMs will probably tell them to leave it on their horse, making the items unusuable during the rest of the session (unless they swap them out or take a penalty of some sort).

At any rate, that's just my experience with D&D, other tabletops probably differ quite a bit.

To your main point about inventory management and carry capacity, I mostly agree. The one thing I do worry about is carrying a billion pistols and rifles around with me, like we ended up doing in the Witcher 3. Many of us are hoping for a weapon/RPG system that's closer to the tabletop in the sense that guns are just guns. Unless you choose to modify them, they do the damage that they do and that's that. You don't find a +2 Revolver, you just find a Revolver. Period. That revolver is as good at the start of the game as it is at the end of the game.

So it largely depends on what CDPR chooses to do.

If they go with the system I just mentioned, carryweight can safely be lower for the sake of concealment purposes and making players choose their arsenal carefully to fit the situation (we might have a hideout of some sort, like the Witcher 3 did with its stashes). If they go with a Witcher 3 system where +5 damage pistols are the norm, and players are constantly tossing out old guns for new ones, having a Dark Souls-like carry weight system would make much more sense, even if I don't like the idea thematically.

 

[Suhiira]

I'm actually pretty damn picky about the amount of stuff my players lug around as a GM. To the point that over the years I've has players make fun of me over it by doing things like attaching fishing weights to a flight capable character to ground them and using pack chickens (carrying a portion of their own food).

While it's true you don't, shouldn't, track each and every empty vial you have to have reasonable limits. Not only because some players will abuse the system but also because you, as a GM, want the players to prioritize things, but occasionally come up short and have to improvise.

So IMHO unlimited inventory is every bit as bad as super limited.

 

[Snowflakez]

I'm actually pretty damn picky about the amount of stuff my players lug around as a GM. To the point that over the years I've has players make fun of me over it by doing things like attaching fishing weights to a flight capable character to ground them and using pack chickens (carrying a portion of their own food).

While it's true you don't, shouldn't, track each and every empty vial you have to have reasonable limits. Not only because some players will abuse the system but also because you, as a GM, want the players to prioritize things, but occasionally come up short and have to improvise.

So IMHO unlimited inventory is every bit as bad as super limited.

Yep! Lots of DMs do it, and I think it can add to (rather than detract from) the experience. I love getting in a situation where I'm all out of oil flasks, forced to instead smash a nearby lantern on the ground instead, or something to that effect. My DM gives bonus XP for that sort of stuff. Granted, that's D&D, not CP - D&D is already much more forgiving as a PnP.

I think there's always a balance to be struck. It's probably reasonable for a player in 2077 to carry around a rifle/large gun and a pistol, but having 7 pistols, 4 rifles and a wide array of knives might be going a bit overboard. Not saying you couldn't do that in real life, but...

 

[RLKing1969]

In my humble opinion, the idea of an "ammo pickup" is rather...well, lame turning a potentially good rpg into another FPS. My take, so that combat ISN'T the end all and be all of the game, it should be either loot the ammo off of the dead or buy it. Please, in the name of all that is sacred, NO easy ammo drops.

 

[Suhiira]

In my humble opinion, the idea of an "ammo pickup" is rather...well, lame turning a potentially good rpg into another FPS. My take, so that combat ISN'T the end all and be all of the game, it should be either loot the ammo off of the dead or buy it. Please, in the name of all that is sacred, NO easy ammo drops.

Amen!

It requires a bit of programming but it's not that hard to have weapons and unused ammo drop off NPCs. If it happens to be a caliber you can use, great, if not leave it or pick it up (assuming you have the carry capacity to do so) and sell it later.

On the same general topic.
Whatever shops exist in the game should have a limit as to the amount of stuff they'll buy off you. No real pawnshop is going to be the slightest bit interested in buying 27 of the same make and model of weapon. It's not that hard to include diminishing returns in regard to the amount they'll pay for stuff. 100% for the first say 3, 90% for the next, then 80% etc ... to the point you literally can't give them away. This also does wonders for the "your character winds up a millionaire" problem most games have.

 

[sv3672]

It requires a bit of programming but it's not that hard to have weapons and unused ammo drop off NPCs. If it happens to be a caliber you can use, great, if not leave it or pick it up (assuming you have the carry capacity to do so) ans sell it later.

The difficult part is not making enemies drop ammo and weapons, but rather making this well balanced as a supply to the player. Often the dropped ammo is not enough to make combat sustainable, or if a larger amount is dropped, the player may end up collecting too much (less of an issue if ammo has weight or maximum capacity, and/or enemies do not respawn). It depends on the player's skill, how much ammo is fired on average per enemy vs. how much is dropped as loot, if the amount in inventory increases or decreases over time. It can also be an issue when for example the player is carrying an assault rifle and is specialized in the use of that kind of weapon, but enemies in an area mostly wield pistols. Not that these cannot be solved with good design, but I can see why developers also put "fixed" ammo pickups in games, they make situations like the player entering a difficult battle (not knowing in advance that it will be difficult) with almost empty inventory less likely.

I do not mind ammo pickups if they are implemented in a reasonable way, that is, you can occasionally find them in places where it makes sense (e.g. in an armory or storage room that is used by guards), rather than everywhere in random containers or just lying around.

 

[Guest 4149880]

In my humble opinion, the idea of an "ammo pickup" is rather...well, lame turning a potentially good rpg into another FPS. My take, so that combat ISN'T the end all and be all of the game, it should be either loot the ammo off of the dead or buy it. Please, in the name of all that is sacred, NO easy ammo drops.

Looting enemies for ammo would only work if they're using the same ammo the player is. So either everyone is conveniently using the same stuff or the player will have to abandon their weapon and pick up a dead enemies weapon in hopes the rest of them are using it as well.

Its the little things like this that will show everyone what CDPR is made of in terms of how they balance the game and make it unlike all other games. If they can do it.

 

[Snowflakez]

Amen!

It requires a bit of programming but it's not that hard to have weapons and unused ammo drop off NPCs. If it happens to be a caliber you can use, great, if not leave it or pick it up (assuming you have the carry capacity to do so) ans sell it later.

On the same general topic.
Whatever shops exist in the game should have a limit as to the amount of stuff they'll buy off you. No real pawnshop is going to be the slightest bit interested in buying 27 of the same make and model of weapon. It's not that hard to include diminishing returns in regard to the amount they'll pay for stuff. 100% for the first say 3, 90% for the next, then 80% etc ... to the point you literally can't give them away. This also does wonders for the "your character winds up a millionaire" problem most games have.

Aye! Even Mount & Blade: Warband has this. Not only do shops have limited cash to buy stuff off you with, but if you sell 30 Furs to a goods trader, their sell value progressively goes down the more you sell - eventually becoming near worthless. It's a pretty cool, simply mechanic!

 

[Suhiira]

The difficult part is not making enemies drop ammo and weapons, but rather making this well balanced as a supply to the player. Often the dropped ammo is not enough to make combat sustainable.

Umm ... it's not a shooter, sustainable combat probably isn't going to be an issue.
One firefight, maybe two.
You're not going to need tons of ammo to mow down hordes of opponents. If you're gods gift to shooting half a dozen rounds or so should be all you need ... for normal people, 2-3 mags.

It can also be an issue when for example the player is carrying an assault rifle and is specialized in the use of that kind of weapon, but enemies in an area mostly wield pistols.

Again, so what?
You made the choice to carry a weapon using a specific type of ammo, make sure you bring enough. Don't expect to scavenge. Do you think cops or soldiers go into battle expecting to pick up ammo along the way?

 

[Snowflakez]

Umm ... it's not a shooter, sustainable combat probably isn't going to be an issue.
One firefight, maybe two.
You're not going to need tons of ammo to mow down hordes of opponents. If you're gods gift to shooting half a dozen rounds or so should be all you need ... for normal people, 2-3 mags.


Again, so what?
You made the choice to carry a weapon using a specific type of ammo, make sure you bring enough. Don't expect to scavenge. Do you think cops or soldiers go into battle expecting to pick up ammo along the way?

Well, you've said yourself it probably will be a shooter, but that you'd like to have both RPG and FPS options. So would what he said apply to the FPS mode, if it existed?

That said, I agree with you regardless. Just thought I'd bring that up.

It ultimately depends on whether or not CDPR makes enemies bullet sponges. This applies to both an RPG mode and an FPS mode. I have no reason to think they will go that route given the source material, but it could happen.

 

[Sardukhar]

It ultimately depends on whether or not CDPR makes enemies bullet sponges. This applies to both an RPG mode and an FPS mode. I have no reason to think they will go that route given the source material, but it could happen.

Ye-ah..I mean there was a bit of this in W3 on Deathmarch, but not too bad. A few good sword hits and dead target. Or dead you. For me and others, it was really a levelling issue. Not to sidetrack the thread, but ammo becomes redundant if you can easily defeat people with a single shot on a "low level" target. Really hoping they don't have levels, though. Sometimes a single shot works, sometimes they are in ACPA.

And it will be a shooter to an extent. Lots of shooting. This isn't PnP so I'd expect them to build for the player that wants to get into 10 gunfights per hour.

A few hundred rounds I expect will be the target number if that's the case. Mostly, people miss.

 

[Suhiira]

Well, you've said yourself it probably will be a shooter, but that you'd like to have both RPG and FPS options. So would what he said apply to the FPS mode, if it existed?

No, I said it will probably be an FPS combat system.
That's dramatically different from it being a shooter.

For the sake of clarity I define a "shooter" as a game that centers around combat.

 

[Snowflakez]

No, I said it will probably be an FPS combat system.
That's dramatically different from it being a shooter.

For the sake of clarity I define a "shooter" as a game that centers around combat.

Hm. Okay. So an FPS combat system, for you, would be something akin to VTM:B? Sard has also mentioned Deus Ex in the past, but I assume he's referring to the older games (The new ones are not at all an RPG with an FPS combat system) which I haven't played.

A shooter, on the otehr hand, would be something like GTA?