Communication between the Witcher community and CDPR

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I'm actually pretty interested in how CDPR defines "managing the community". What's the daily job of the community manager? How is he supposed to interact with the community? How deeply is he involved in the decision making process? How much freedom does he have? What other channels of community integretion exist?

Good questions. In classic meaning, community manager in some company is responsible for communication precisely. I.e. for establishing and maintaining two way communication between community members and the company. In practice I saw different variants of how it worked. In better cases such managers actually did help communicating things both ways, in worse cases they only passed down announcements from the company to the community, and gave an impression that nothing was going the other way. That's not the classic definition. I'm also interested in understanding how CDPR view this process and how they want it to work.

 

[moonknightgog]

Communication in the past was patchy, but it wasn't practically totally non existent. Plus in the past community was smaller, and with the bigger size communication issues only escalated without resources needed to maintain even the previous level.

---------- Updated at 12:51 PM ----------



That's a good point. So let's recollect some past issues:

1. The "downgrade" issue. Initially CDPR demoed TW3 (on E3) using their WIP variant of the engine. Later demos showed a noticeable difference. Community was concerned that the game was "downgraded" because of consoles. CDPR practically didn't respond to these concerns, until the issue blew up. Later CDPR gave an interview to Eurogamer trying to explain what caused the change, and saying they didn't explain anything to the community "frankly speaking because we didn't see it as a problem". But it obviously was a problem of communication. Note that CDPR were discussing it with the media, but again not with the community.

And there was a simply solution to avoid that entirely. Very simple:
"Yes, we did - *Explain reasons*".
It would have been fine, because it would have been a really open and honest answer.

Instead, they made a series of errors, both from community manager and developers.

1)The first one was to say "there is no downgrade, is a problem of youtube compression" - which in part was true, but it covered another different issue.
2) The other was to say that everything would have been like it was showed in the trailers.
3) The third mistake was to continue to show the old E3 material and assets in the later trailers, like Sword of Destiny. This was a marketing departiment fault
4) Monnier saying "Ultra setting will be a slap in the face". I know, it wasn't his area of expertize, but then...don't say nothing. Just say: "I work on gameplay, I cannot answer that because I don't know".

Those were the mistakes which leaded to that series of hot topics.
But still...the solution is not to became silent. Even because, in this way, there could be this impression "we did it our job, we sold the game, we don't care anymore".

---------- Updated at 09:44 PM ----------

Actually I wanted to do more of these, but the interest just wasn't there, so they got cancelled. I think it's a combination of most of the "old guard" leaving and the interests of the community as a whole changing due to the interests of its new members being different.

Oh, shame, I would have loved a Q&E with quest designers, post-release.

 

[Garrison72]

I'm actually pretty interested in how CDPR defines "managing the community". What's the daily job of the community manager? How is he supposed to interact with the community? How deeply is he involved in the decision making process? How much freedom does he have? What other channels of community integretion exist?

I mean, what's their strategy for the community? I don't see ANY tbh. This forum her for example just exists but rarely does ever anybody interact with the community, not even Marcin. Sometimes I get the feeling that they talk more in the Polish forum but that's imo a shame since the Witcher is an international brand for a long time now and the community should interact in English imo so that everybody can participate.

Any response of the REDs would be appreciated.

I couldn't care less about community management, but Gilrond brings up the unsavory fact that CDPR are conducting demographic studies. The comments from Iwinski about American gamers don't offend me per se, but he keeps saying it, which causes a bit of concern. Maybe they really do feel the need to altar creative content based on metrics. The first thing that comes to mind is how the game mechanics in TW3 have been streamlined, and how much easier the game is. I know they were hammered on this relentlessly in the past - the Witcher games had too steep of a learning curve, were too obtuse and not friendly to newcomers. Maybe I'm stretching here, but it's clear to me at least they're trying to expand their American audience.

 

[moonknightgog]

I couldn't care less about community management, but Gilrond brings up the unsavory fact that CDPR are conducting demographic studies. The comments from Iwinski about American gamers don't offend me per se, but he keeps saying it, which causes a bit of concern. Maybe they really do feel the need to altar creative content based on metrics. The first thing that comes to mind is how the game mechanics in TW3 have been streamlined, and how much easier the game is. I know they were hammered on this relentlessly in the past - the Witcher games had too steep of a learning curve, were too obtuse and not friendly to newcomers. Maybe I'm stretching here, but it's clear to me at least they're trying to expand their American audience.

Which I don't agree with this kind of move.
Not because they shouldn't be opened to USA, but because it gives the feeling that is a universal thought that americans barely know hot to hold a controller, which I'm pretty sure is not true.

More than americans, they are trying to open to mass market. But make the game easy and streamlined is bad, if you forget about the other side of gamers.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I couldn't care less about community management, but Gilrond brings up the unsavory fact that CDPR are conducting demographic studies. The comments from Iwinski about American gamers don't offend me per se, but he keeps saying it, which causes a bit of concern.

I probably missed those comments. What exactly did he say? Are there any articles on this? I never had an impression that American market has a different proportion of RPG fans vs mass market gamers (or whomever they call "hit buyers" or etc.). But on the other hand I usually talk to like minded RPG fans and I didn't really see demographic research on this. It's an interesting topic.

 

[eineingarp]

Sometimes I get the feeling that they talk more in the Polish forum but that's imo a shame since the Witcher is an international brand for a long time now and the community should interact in English imo so that everybody can participate.

Oh absolutely not, we feel the opposite. It's the international forum that convinced CDPR to add more Triss dialogues, alternate movement etc. The devs answer us even less often.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

I think there are some mistakes in community interaction right now:

1) The lacking care for fan feedback in general. Especially well written or well constructed criticism (both positive and negative) often falls through the net imo while only the VERY popular stuff gets up to the top.

2) The lacking DIRECT communication and interaction with the community.

3) The lacking feeling that concerns of the community are treated with honesty and at least some transparency.

I also think that most of that was already there from the beginning. But that doesn't mean that it was good. And it doesn't mean that I can't or shouldn't be improved, especially in times in which kickstarter and "open development" got popular. Compared to companies like inXile or Larian CDPR looks antiquated and more like a big publisher like EA than the "rebels" they want to see in themselves, at least in terms of PR/communication and fan interaction. Even "traditional" publisher like Paradox are a lot more open and upfront than CDPR. They even organize community events on a regular basic, giving the community a real feeling of not only being welcomed but also being valued as a source of inspiration and feedback. I don't get this feeling with CDPR. In the past they released two great Enhanced Ediitions. But to the honest, what they "fixed" was mostly was big reviewers criticized, like the short 3rd chapter inTW2. They didn't need a forum and their fans to get that information and to me it looks like they exactly see it that way. The only thing they might care about are topics that really "burn through the roof" or have the support of singular devs. But without any real interaction on the forum or with fans in different ways (social media, real life, whatever) nobody can be sure that feedback is really "valued" at CDPR, even if it doesn't get "hot" in the public awareness, but if it maybe offers well reasoned insights and good criticism. I also don't get the argument for being secretive. You might guess that they think "failing is not an open" and "we rather be silent than admitting a failure". But that doesn't work imo. People are not stupid. They smell failures and all they want is a company that has the balls to admit failures and explains their reasons for them (just have a look at how Paradox handles this topic for a good comparison). Being secretive fuels discussions, it never calms them down. So there is no reason to be secretive. Even if you suspect that your reasoning is unpopular just go through with it and treat your community with honesty and respect. Every good company should stick by its decisions and it shouldn't be ashamed of them. If you are ashamed of some of your decisions you made probably the wrong ones. But even then, just spit it out and try to improve in the future. Failing is not bad but ignorance is.

 

[RichEdmonds]

Oh absolutely not, we feel the opposite. It's the international forum that convinced CDPR to add more Triss dialogues, alternate movement etc. The devs answer us even less often.

I really can't decide whether the lack of interaction with the dedicated section of the Polish community over the international English section is a good thing or not. I mean, I could gather my thoughts about a focus to Polish speakers since CDPR are effectively based out of Poland, but to hear things are even worse for you guys stuns me, to be honest.

Even "traditional" publisher like Paradox are a lot more open and upfront than CDPR. They even organize community events on a regular basic, giving the community a real feeling of not only being welcomed but also being valued as a source of inspiration and feedback. I don't get this feeling with CDPR.

Paradox have really turned things around, especially with the likes of Colossal Order onboard, who for an indie studio as well, get their community relations generally spot on. To see the developer and publisher share the responsibilities for support and post-game communications is quite the sight to see. It's really not difficult at all, which is more than likely why we're more frustrated.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Oh absolutely not, we feel the opposite. It's the international forum that convinced CDPR to add more Triss dialogues, alternate movement etc. The devs answer us even less often.

Good to know (but sad to hear that they don't talk to you guys neither).

But I don't think that the community "convinced" them in any healthy way. How can you be convinced of something that you never really tackled? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to actually interact with the community instead of just "listening to the posts with the most replies"?

---------- Post merged on 24-08-2015 at 12:01 AM ----------

I couldn't care less about community management, but Gilrond brings up the unsavory fact that CDPR are conducting demographic studies. The comments from Iwinski about American gamers don't offend me per se, but he keeps saying it, which causes a bit of concern. Maybe they really do feel the need to altar creative content based on metrics. The first thing that comes to mind is how the game mechanics in TW3 have been streamlined, and how much easier the game is. I know they were hammered on this relentlessly in the past - the Witcher games had too steep of a learning curve, were too obtuse and not friendly to newcomers. Maybe I'm stretching here, but it's clear to me at least they're trying to expand their American audience.

"Demographic studies"? You mean like ... EA? Games made for focus groups? Hell, the CDPR of old would have laughed about such methods. But that's probably a topic for a different thread...

 

[RichEdmonds]

Good to know (but sad to hear that they don't talk to you guys neither).

But I don't think that the community "convinced" them in any healthy way. How can you be convinced of something that you never really tackled? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to actually interact with the community instead of just "listening to the posts with the most replies"?

Exactly. Most of the UK would see me be made Prime Minster at the next election (according to latest polls), but that doesn't mean it's a jolly good idea.

 

[Garrison72]

I probably missed those comments. What exactly did he say? Are there any articles on this? I never had an impression that American market has a different proportion of RPG fans vs mass market gamers (or whomever they call "hit buyers" or etc.). But on the other hand I usually talk to like minded RPG fans and I didn't really see demographic research on this. It's an interesting topic.

Sorry, I'm not linking because it's too much effort. Iwinski is always playing up the hardcore nature of european gamers and the casual nature of American gamers. He's done it for a long time now, never mind that American produced games had a big impact on Witcher. I get why he says it, but I feel it's misguided. I'm worried that the big fat red bar in the image you posted means mainstreaming content, because 'Murica. And nothing could be further from the truth in terms of what American gamers expect from CDPR. .

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I also think that most of that was already there from the beginning. But that doesn't mean that it was good. And it doesn't mean that I can't or shouldn't be improved, especially in times in which kickstarter and "open development" got popular. Compared to companies like inXile or Larian CDPR looks antiquated and more like a big publisher like EA than the "rebels" they want to see in themselves, at least in terms of PR/communication and fan interaction.

Yes, it became part of the culture for studios which crowdfund their projects to have open and honest communication with community. And there is a very good reason for it - they literally depend on community support for their success. So if they'll fail in communication, they might fail altogether. Crowdfunding often is compared to political campaigns. If politicians betray the trust of their supporters, it can end their careers. Same can happen with such studios as well. In case of CDPR they don't feel such need because community is not as critical for them apparently.

 

[Tooters]

I think much of it probably comes down to the fact that CDPR are probably in crunch time getting Hearts of Stone ready, tested and up to quality, as such community managers wouldn't have much to say, even if they could.
I cannot speak for them, and I arrived a little late to have noticed their activity when they were more active, so I may be completely out of touch.

But I'd assume that communication will come back once there is no more pressure being put on the developers.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@MissMerigold: I assume there is always something on the plate for them. Be it upcoming expansions or Cyberpunk 2077. These communication issues didn't start just now, so I don't think these releases are the only cause for it, but they can of course impact the situation, making it even worse.

 

[Kinley]

I guess community can lose interest in spending time and effort on this, if it can easily end up ignored and not answered.

Time and effort on asking questions or saying if one would like to see more Spotlights? Seems highly unlikely to me. When I asked people if they'd like to see more Developer Q&As I got like 3 pages of responses. Let's face it, this community's priorities has shifted, it's mainly complaining about patches and shouting at CDPR about how your waifu got neglected. From the 124 people that I have on my friends list I can count on my hands the number of people that still post regularly, even less if I count the people that post outside of Community.

Which brings me to my next point, up until the downgrade debacle moving onto the performance and waifu debacles, RED activity was at an all time high on the forums, devs and PR regularly posting, even on a daily basis. Now it's nobody. It's just the reality of things, REDs avoid the forums like the plague. They'd rather interact with fans on twitter. Ginger is constantly answering questions on twitter via askfm, Miles is very active too. Devs want to talk, just not here.

The sad thing about this is that CDPR kinda did this with their own hands, they opened the floodgates, the vocal, toxic minority trumps all nowadays. While most of the levelheaded people have left because they don't want to deal with that crap. And it makes me so sad.

Oh and I see mention about moderators and freedom of speech. Yeah... About that, speaking on a personal level, when the only two active moderators have had enough of seeing the same thing day in and day out to the point where it feels like you're managing a kindergarten more so than a community of fans meant for a game that is rated 18+ (the way it was before), then they will feel overwhelmed and threads will get closed. End of story. And if you wish to discuss moderation I invite you to PM me about it.

In the end, the point of this ramble is basically me saying that I honestly don't care anymore. And why would I? The company has changed, that is true, but the worst of all is the change that has occurred to the community and it wasn't for the better.

Cheers.

 

[Tooters]

@MissMerigold: I assume there is always something on the plate for them. Be it upcoming expansions or Cyberpunk 2077. These communication issues didn't start just now, so I don't think these releases are the only cause for it, but they can of course impact the situation, making it even worse.

Development is much different to crunch time however, this is when all unneeded staff are normally on holiday and anyone who can work on anything are working as much as humanly possible, but like I said I haven't been around long enough to comment on their seeming disappearance.

 

[RichEdmonds]

Time and effort on asking questions or saying if one would like to see more Spotlights? Seems highly unlikely to me. When I asked people if they'd like to see more Developer Q&As I got like 3 pages of responses. Let's face it, this community's priorities has shifted, it's mainly complaining about patches and shouting at CDPR about how your waifu got neglected. From the 124 people that I have on my friends list I can count on my hands the number of people that still post regularly, even less if I count the people that post outside of Community.

Which brings me to my next point, up until the downgrade debacle moving onto the performance and waifu debacles, RED activity was at an all time high on the forums, devs and PR regularly posting, even on a daily basis. Now it's nobody. It's just the reality of things, REDs avoid the forums like the plague. They'd rather interact with fans on twitter. Ginger is constantly answering questions on twitter via askfm, Miles is very active too. Devs want to talk, just not here.

The sad thing about this is that CDPR kinda did this with their own hands, they opened the floodgates, the vocal, toxic minority trumps all nowadays. And it makes me so sad.

Oh and I see mention about moderators and freedom of speech. Yeah... About that, speaking on a personal level, when the only two active moderators have had enough of seeing the same thing day in and day out to the point where it feels like you're managing a kindergarten more so than a community of fans meant for a game that is rated 18+ (the way it was before), then they will feel overwhelmed and threads will get closed. End of story.

In the end, the point of this ramble is basically me saying that I honestly don't care anymore. And why would I? The company has changed, that is true, but the worst of all is the change that has occurred to the community and it wasn't for the better.

Cheers.

You'll always be my waifu, you sexy bear.

:wazzzup:

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Time and effort on asking questions or saying if one would like to see more Spotlights?

All of it. Gathering the questions, bringing it to the attention of community, monitoring the list for off-topics, actually participating and coming up with relevant questions and so on. When we gathered technical community questions for developers, there was enough interest. It took time and some effort. I can easily see how people might feel discouraged to do anything like that again if all they get in result is the stone wall style of answer.

 

[Kinley]

All of it. Gathering the questions, bringing it to the attention of the community, monitoring the list from off-topics, actually participating and coming up with relevant questions and so on. When we gathered technical community questions for developers, there was enough interest. It took time and some effort. I can easily see how people might feel discouraged to do anything like that again if all they get in result is the stone wall style of answer.

That's kinda irrelevant since I was the one doing most of that when it came to Spotlights, and I was very much willing to do more.

You'll always be my waifu, you sexy bear.

Aw. :heart:

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Which brings me to my next point, up until the downgrade debacle moving onto the performance and waifu debacles, RED activity was at an all time high on the forums, devs and PR regularly posting, even on a daily basis. Now it's nobody. It's just the reality of things, REDs avoid the forums like the plague. They'd rather interact with fans on twitter. Ginger is constantly answering questions on twitter via askfm, Miles is very active too. Devs want to talk, just not here.

That's indeed very unfortunate. I don't even look at TW3 spoilery threads yet, so I totally missed all those storms there. It's sad to hear that developers got burned out by some people in those topics.

---------- Updated at 06:35 PM ----------

That's kinda irrelevant since I was the one doing most of that when it came to Spotlights, and I was very much willing to do more.

Why is it irrelevant if that was a community effort? It was made by a number of people, and in result we were simply ignored. Am I willing to do more after that? Probably not, because it would be a waste of time.