Patch Notes 11.6

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ST decks right now run 12 nature cards while SK doesn't do that with raids: Equinox would tend to find more value than Warlord per game. Maybe it's no problem at all, I was just considering this aspect. NOT because it's ST. There is no "ST conspiracy", and I didn't specifically say it because I'm (subconsciously) part of it lol. I still recall ST players criticizing Simlas for being bad and now he's one of the most versatile cards ever. I don't want to argue about the "speed" of nerfs, but addressing overperforming cards as fast as possible is never a bad idea. Again, not because it's ST....
Oh, it's definitely not a bad idea, it just usually seems to happen to ST faster than other factions. And I wouldn't dream of suggesting you were a part of any "ST conspiracy." But "devs hate ST" is another one of those "it is known" adages you seem to not be aware of, even though this time youtubers definitely said it publicly before. It's a "joke" of course, but you know how they say every joke has the truth part?

And again with the card number. It doesn't matter that SK "doesn't do that" on several levels. One: if it doesn't do that, it CAN. Like everybody in gwent, SK is allowed to include 12 raids in a deck. The fact that it's not optimal should have no effect on how an ST card is balanced. Two: The issue of value is also not correct, because even though ST runs 12 nature cards in Nature's gift decks, they aren't ALL used, so an ST card should not be weaker than a comparable SK card just because SK runs 10 raids in a deck and ST runs 12 natures, because both decks may end up using the same number of specials in any given match.
 
i have no idea where i can write this, but anyways... please, next season or update add in the shupe store gascon's skin!
 
Oh, it's definitely not a bad idea, it just usually seems to happen to ST faster than other factions. And I wouldn't dream of suggesting you were a part of any "ST conspiracy." But "devs hate ST" is another one of those "it is known" adages you seem to not be aware of, even though this time youtubers definitely said it publicly before. It's a "joke" of course, but you know how they say every joke has the truth part?

And again with the card number. It doesn't matter that SK "doesn't do that" on several levels. One: if it doesn't do that, it CAN. Like everybody in gwent, SK is allowed to include 12 raids in a deck. The fact that it's not optimal should have no effect on how an ST card is balanced. Two: The issue of value is also not correct, because even though ST runs 12 nature cards in Nature's gift decks, they aren't ALL used, so an ST card should not be weaker than a comparable SK card just because SK runs 10 raids in a deck and ST runs 12 natures, because both decks may end up using the same number of specials in any given match.

Simlas + 2x Equinox is 26 points.... still totally OP
 
Simlas + 2x Equinox is 26 points.... still totally OP
No, actually Simlas + 2x Equinox + Nature’s Gift leader plus a handful of mostly weak nature cards (which also leave the deck unit poor) results in 26 points in the form of two tall units vulnerable to removal. This is pretty bad compared to an equivalently priced Dana which can generate 30 points (mostly carryover) in a short 3 card round one.

The real problem with Equinox is the ability to easily replay (or copy) it for 6 or even 8 twelve-point boosts. All this copying exacerbates even a slight imbalance in card power.
 
Simlas + 2x Equinox is 26 points.... still totally OP
It's a 3-card point swing combo that involves a 13p card. Is it really that OP in the age where 5p Restore into 10p Melusine can swing 50? Where 8p Sigvald can swing 50? Where Beauclair or Ivar can swing like 90, lmao.
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No, actually Simlas + 2x Equinox + Nature’s Gift leader plus a handful of mostly weak nature cards (which also leave the deck unit poor) results in 26 points in the form of two tall units vulnerable to removal. This is pretty bad compared to an equivalently priced Dana which can generate 30 points (mostly carryover) in a short 3 card round one.

The real problem with Equinox is the ability to easily replay (or copy) it for 6 or even 8 twelve-point boosts. All this copying exacerbates even a slight imbalance in card power.
Dana is a bit of a questionable example here, because to get 30 in a short round A LOT of things would need to happen, enough so that it sort of crosses into theoretical/fantasy realm. A better comparison would be to something like Svalblad or Justicar.

And yes, spamming is a problem, but it's a Gwent problem, not a ST problem. ST can't spam broken bronze units like other factions. It can't spam golds like other factions. It can't bring bronze OR gold units back from the graveyard like other factions. But with the help from some vulnerable board cards and some mandatory neutrals it CAN somewhat spam a bronze special. Why is that worse than other factions spamming gold cards? How is replaying Equinox 6 or 7 times different from spamming a dozen royal guards?
 
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I still don't understand the point of season cycle quests only being eligible in ranked, these quests are so grindy yet you can advance in ranked only so much, also the requirement of playing cards many of which are now obsolete (powercrept) means you will be losing a lot against tryhard meta decks... Balance aside, this seems to be the dumbest idea from the patch.
 
I still don't understand the point of season cycle quests only being eligible in ranked, these quests are so grindy yet you can advance in ranked only so much, also the requirement of playing cards many of which are now obsolete (powercrept) means you will be losing a lot against tryhard meta decks... Balance aside, this seems to be the dumbest idea from the patch.
Nah, playing ladder is hell of a fun right now :LOL: it's not that bad idea actually
 
Dana is a bit of a questionable example here, because to get 30 in a short round A LOT of things would need to happen, enough so that it sort of crosses into theoretical/fantasy realm. A better comparison would be to something like Svalblad or Justicar.

And yes, spamming is a problem, but it's a Gwent problem, not a ST problem. ST can't spam broken bronze units like other factions. It can't spam golds like other factions. It can't bring bronze OR gold units back from the graveyard like other factions. But with the help from some vulnerable board cards and some mandatory neutrals it CAN somewhat spam a bronze special. Why is that worse than other factions spamming gold cards? How is replaying Equinox 6 or 7 times different from spamming a dozen royal guards?
Thank you for responding. I wasn't as transparent about my intention as I should have been. I did not mean to pick on poor ol' harmless ST that can clearly do no wrong and I certainly did not want to claim there are no other poorly conceived cards (in other threads I have identified literally over a hundred of them) -- I wanted to pinpoint the mechanism that make Spring Equinox so distasteful for most players to encounter in the hopes that similar issues can be avoided in future patches.

My main point is that Spring Equinox is not bad because a weak bronze plays for four or so more points than a typical card of its provision -- if only two were ever used, I don't think Spring Equinox would ever imbalance any decks. In fact, I would go further to say that a major problem of Gwent is that in general bronze cards are too weak relative to high-end golds -- we need the cost/provision broken to fix that.

My point was that multiple copies of cards is an easily broken mechanism especially when applied to engines or cards that generate above average points per turn. Your examples reinforce this observation.

Incidently, ST can more than "somewhat" span Equinox -- it gets two natural copies from original deck, a third from Triss: Telekinesis, two restored to the deck by Alissa, and one played from graveyard by Forest Protector. Incidentally, none of these six copies is at all interactive -- without graveyard hate the opponent has no control on them. Most ST decks can very naturally generate 2 more copies from Elven Seers -- copies that are very binary depending upon the control available to the opponent. And that does not include meme copies based upon copying or replaying the Seers and Alissa (a potential of potentially at least 7 more copies -- although admittedly copies that are unlikely to actually materialize).

A second significant issue with mechanisms around the card is more subtle -- it is high tempo without any significant play restrictions. As long as there is a unit on the board, Equanox is good for 12 points (plus leader value plus value from cards like Triss that might play it): it does not need preparation, it does not depend upon board state, or it does not need a particular time in the match. This extremely flexible reach/tempo eliminates almost strategic answers to to the card or deck. Again, other cards may have the same issue -- I am simply trying to identify precise mechanisms around Equinox that I believe make the card exceptionally oppressive.
 
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My point was that multiple copies of cards is an easily broken mechanism especially when applied to engines or cards that generate above average points per turn. Your examples reinforce this observation.
Yes, and my main point was spamming has been a Gwent issue forever, but somehow no one is fixing reavers and warlords, and I stopped expecting them to, but because Equinox - even though it's a neutral card - is most usable by ST, I expect it to be murdered in less than a month.
Incidently, ST can more than "somewhat" span Equinox -- it gets two natural copies from original deck, a third from Triss: Telekinesis, two restored to the deck by Alissa, and one played from graveyard by Forest Protector. Incidentally, none of these six copies is at all interactive -- without graveyard hate the opponent has no control on them. Most ST decks can very naturally generate 2 more copies from Elven Seers -- copies that are very binary depending upon the control available to the opponent. And that does not include meme copies based upon copying or replaying the Seers and Alissa (a potential of potentially at least 7 more copies -- although admittedly copies that are unlikely to actually materialize).
No, that's actually exactly what I call "somewhat" spamming. 2 natural cards, one replay from the graveyard with an 11p card, two low percentage possibilities from the seers. 11p Triss is not consistent with 4 bronzes in play from your side alone, and who knows how many from the opponent, so also VERY "somewhat." Alissa has to return them from the graveyard, all of which adds up to 6 or 7 copies only "sometimes." More often it's just 4.

Now, compare this to NR spamming reavers, or MO spamming golds. Have you EVER seen fewer than a dozen reavers in match, unless it took less to wipe you out, that is? 8 reavers on a row, a dozen royal guards, 3 MO defenders, 2 Kellis, 3 Gernis, 2 Koscheys or Queens, 2 sets of each: Melusine (or 3), Sigvald and Knut via returns from graveyard, 5 bomb heavers. THAT's what I personally call "spamming."

So to me, what ST does outside of tokens is only "somewhat" spamming. There are no equivalents of cheap garbage spam cards like megascope and teleportation for specials, and one ST special "duplicator" is a 10p gold and has a timer, which make her also only "somewhat" capable of being played. And I'm saying this as someone who has spent a lot of time with spell elves decks whose wincon is quad harvest or quad backup plan, depending on the draw.

A second significant issue with mechanisms around the card is more subtle -- it is high tempo without any significant play restrictions. As long as there is a unit on the board, Equanox is good for 12 points (plus leader value plus value from cards like Triss that might play it): it does not need preparation, it does not depend upon board state, or it does not need a particular time in the match. This extremely flexible reach/tempo eliminates almost strategic answers to to the card or deck. Again, other cards may have the same issue -- I am simply trying to identify precise mechanisms around Equinox that I believe make the card exceptionally oppressive.
The thing about this is that no one is going to play equinox "without restrictions," even though they can. Especially if you don't land Triss, but even if you do. You will always try to play it into a seer, because otherwise you're risking graveyard hate and your win con is going bye bye.

Basically, it's oppressive because of the same reasons all the other swing plays are oppressive. It swings for too many points at the end of the match. But's it's going to go away after one season, while all the other crazy shit that's been around for months will still be around months later.
 
I dislike the last changes to Morvuud and Tatterwing, i was hoping for some good last patches but to me these last changes did more harm than good. Also no big fan of the new dragons. Stop ruining the game. I don't see me playing this tripe beyond Gwentfinity, which can better be called Gwentitanic, the iceberg has been hit some patches ago.
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Equinox - even though it's a neutral card -
Yes, so many 'neutral' cards are not neutral at all and clearly favor a faction. And yes, Reavers and Warlords, tssk.

Their solution to problematic cards like AQ + Kelly or Gerni is always the same-look-at-me-thinking-out-of-the-box-mom-powercreep-cards, sigh.
 
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The changes on these two units are the only valuable changes that open a huge amount of diversity on MO deck building.
I had Tatterwing on my Syndicate deck, for consuming Ignatius Hale , Bloody good friends or Procession of penance when they have low power. or any other card with low power. Now, I cannot play it, besides they increased their provision cost, and it doesn't fit anymore in my deck. Question: why was not a new card created? instead of modifying an existing one. With todays AI tools, it is somewhat easy to create new art for that purpose.
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My post is to state that Tatterwing was not a Monsters only card, and thus it cannot be evaluated for the potential benefits on that faction only, did not they took that into account?
 
I had Tatterwing on my Syndicate deck, for consuming Ignatius Hale , Bloody good friends or Procession of penance when they have low power. or any other card with low power. Now, I cannot play it, besides they increased their provision cost, and it doesn't fit anymore in my deck. Question: why was not a new card created? instead of modifying an existing one. With todays AI tools, it is somewhat easy to create new art for that purpose.
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My post is to state that Tatterwing was not a Monsters only card, and thus it cannot be evaluated for the potential benefits on that faction only, did not they took that into account?

Is better to have some old cards reworked and barely functional than cards that cannot be included in any way.
 
I kind of like the new dragons, they work well not only with Kelly, but also with dwarves, elves etc. etc. I managed to have winrate above 50% with them. Certainly not meta, but decent.

Yes, they are not bad, i did exaggerate a lot, but i do think it now favors certain factions more than others. Just like Witchers eg the SY have none.
Other cards like this are Garrison and Madoc.

I had Tatterwing on my Syndicate deck, for consuming Ignatius Hale , Bloody good friends or Procession of penance when they have low power. or any other card with low power. Now, I cannot play it, besides they increased their provision cost, and it doesn't fit anymore in my deck. Question: why was not a new card created? instead of modifying an existing one. With todays AI tools, it is somewhat easy to create new art for that purpose.
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My post is to state that Tatterwing was not a Monsters only card, and thus it cannot be evaluated for the potential benefits on that faction only, did not they took that into account?
Yes, Tatterwing had a nice unique ability. And is dual faction but it does feel more like a MO card now instead of a Cutups card.

Is better to have some old cards reworked and barely functional than cards that cannot be included in any way.
I liked Tatterwing and Morvuud the way they were. They needed some love, but to totally change their unique ability is a shame though...
 
I liked Tatterwing and Morvuud the way they were. They needed some love, but to totally change their unique ability is a shame though...
I agree. Normally the developers have done well only changing abilities that needed to change for balance or changing abilities that few cared about. This time, the changes seemed less sensitive to preserving unique abilities.

It’s not just Tatterwing and Morvudd — I feel the same way about Delirium, Tempest, and Wolfsbane. All had an existing role, even if they were underutilized.

Sadly, in all cases, I do like the new card — I just regret losing the old one.

Both Tatterwing and Morvudd could have easily been made relevant by providing support for Monster faction beasts — they weren’t bad cards, they belonged to an unusable archetype.

Delirium was preserved in a way as an option under Gigascorpion Decoction, except I don’t want to pay the extra provision for it and usually, when I included one in a deck, I included both. Now I will probably not run the decks that wanted both — another archetype lost.

Tempest was a card that, without change, was growing in usefulness — a nice way to deal with the explosion of immune units (a mechanism I consider a plague on the game). Remove all immunity statuses on units over 3 power and I would not mind the change. But in the current state of the game, we need more tactically and strategically interesting cards —massive uncounterable, uninteractive point sources need limits.

Wolfsbane was an incredibly interactive and interesting card. It also required careful planning and setup for a questionable return. Rather than eliminating such a strategically rich card, it would be better to improve its return — increase damage to 3 or even 4 but raise provisions accordingly. Now the card has potential payoff worth sacrifice and effort. Just be careful not to make it too useful in unitless strategies.
 
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