"You fire your gun at a human enemy 10 levels higher than you - headshot."

[Guest 4149880]

HEY. SHUT UP. Headshots are COOL. [insert cheesey Doctor Who .gif]

Jokes aside, personally, I'm of the (simple) opinion that if an NPC can one-shot me with a headshot in 2077, I should be able to do the same. So long as that's a thing, I really don't care about the particulars. Don't care if I got shot with a pistol, a shotgun, a sniper or a bow and arrow. Headshots are headshots are headshots are headshots.

I mean, headshots don't always end in death, sometimes its a job opportunity. At least that was the case for the cyber psycho chick in the trailer that took one right in the face like nothing. Get some cyber skin now, invest for the future.

 

[Snowflakez]

I mean, headshots don't always end in death, sometimes its a job opportunity. At least that was the case for the cyber psycho chick in the trailer that took one right in the face like nothing. Get some cyber skin now, invest for the future.

Bulletproof skin sounds pretty good to me.

 

[Sardukhar]

Headshots aren't always fatal, but they are rarely good news. Actually, femoral artery is worse. You can survive some pretty nasty head wounds but your femoral goes, so do you and fast. Depending on severity of cut, less than a minute and dead.

Of course, catastrophic braincase damage is near-instantaneous..but so is any sufficiently catastrophic injury.

If you want to find out why head shots aren't the professional choice for hunting or..the other kind of hunting...just get the head-blob moving around like it does in real life. Way too easy to miss or get a non-fatal glancing shot.

Neck, lungs, major arteries..these are your target zones. Bullet composition, elastic tissue damage, shock..these are your incapacitators and killers.

I'd like to see that replicated in-game.

 

[Snowflakez]

Headshots aren't always fatal, but they are rarely good news. Actually, femoral artery is worse. You can survive some pretty nasty head wounds but your femoral goes, so do you and fast. Depending on severity of cut, less than a minute and dead.

Of course, catastrophic braincase damage is near-instantaneous..but so is any sufficiently catastrophic injury.

If you want to find out why head shots aren't the professional choice for hunting or..the other kind of hunting...just get the head-blob moving around like it does in real life. Way too easy to miss or get a non-fatal glancing shot.

Neck, lungs, major arteries..these are your target zones. Bullet composition, elastic tissue damage, shock..these are your incapacitators and killers.

I'd like to see that replicated in-game.

As would I! At the very least, though, I would kill (literally) for a weak point system of some sort in the game.

Another interesting thing to see would be Cyberware that offers better protection for specific parts of the body. Instead of full-body bulletproofing, what about your torso? Upper torso? Maybe just the part covering your heart?

Stuff like that. It'd force players to adapt to the situation a bit better, at the very least - not everything can be solved with a specific gun. Maybe you need to set up explosives in advance, or (god forbid) talk your way out of an upcoming encounter with a particularly well-Cyberwared-out enemy.

Or maybe you need to run. Running should be a viable option in at least a few situations. One thing that irks me about certain DMing strategies in PnPs is the emphasis on "every single encounter you enter is life or death, deal with it B)".

It's one thing if you're fighting an intelligent enemy who purposely leads you into a trap and locks the building down behind you, it's another if every single fight you enter must be finished one way or the other. If you come across bandits in the forest, outnumbered and outgunned, turn invisible and get the hell out, to use D&D as an example. Why should you stay and become a prisoner, pincushion, or worse?

 

[Sardukhar]

As would I! At the very least, though, I would kill (literally) for a weak point system of some sort in the game.

Another interesting thing to see would be Cyberware that offers better protection for specific parts of the body. Instead of full-body bulletproofing, what about your torso? Upper torso? Maybe just the part covering your heart?

Well, CP2020 has region-specific armour yes. Chest, head etc. Cyberlimbs also need armour as well. Armour like jackets and pants are all area specific.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

A lot of little details and variables there... one thing is, you can’t appreciate those kinds of effects and minutiae to their fullest extent if the combat is going to be fast paced pew-pew action. There’s no time to notice or take benefit before the situation is already over.

It might be realistic to not aim the head, but for a shooter gameplay the players instinct is to always go for it. Very few will target limbs because the most benefit comes from penetrating the temple.

 

[Snowflakez]

A lot of little details and variables there... one thing is, you can’t appreciate those kinds of effects and minutiae to their fullest extent if the combat is going to be fast paced pew-pew action. There’s no time to notice or take benefit before the situation is already over.

It might be realistic to not aim the head, but for a shooter gameplay the players instinct is to always go for it. Very few will target limbs because the most benefit comes from penetrating the temple.

I think it's more that no other game has taught them that there's a difference, because there never is. Ever. Just have a shooting tutorial that says "Aiming at different body parts has different effects" and they will do it.

Only game I can think of is Red Dead Redemption, where body part shots were used for non-lethal means, or to pin a person in place. Not saying it was realistic, just that it existed.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I think it's more that no other game has taught them that there's a difference, because there never is. Ever. Just have a shooting tutorial that says "Aiming at different body parts has different effects" and they will do it.

But there is little to no tactical benefit in a fast paced situation in anything but to deal as much damage as possible as fast as possible.

Even in some pseudoRPG shooters like the nuFallouts where battles are prolonged through massive HP bloats, there is never a reason to choose a limb as target over the head or torso (and even torso is behind the head, because potshots are easy in shooters). Not beyond some flavor reasons. Because the ever moving situation does not let you game those kinds of mechanisms and effects but in a most superficial manner.

Reading the pnp stuff gives an idea of a super realistic and finicky combat, but once you put that idea into a shooter, a whole layer of tactical options and considerations vanishes into thin air because they are unusable by the player who has no time to think, play nor witness their effects in the hectic pursuit of staying alive and ending others’. What sounded like finicky and sharp on paper suddenly turns into a blunt tool.

 

[Snowflakez]

But there is little to no tactical benefit in a fast paced situation in anything but to deal as much damage as possible as fast as possible.

Even in some pseudoRPG shooters like the nuFallouts where battles are prolonged through massive HP bloats, there is never a reason to choose a limb as target over the head or torso (and even torso is behind the head, because potshots are easy in shooters). Not beyond some flavor reasons. Because the ever moving situation does not let you game those kinds of mechanisms and effects but in a most superficial manner.

Reading the pnp stuff gives an idea of a super realistic and finicky combat, but once you put that idea into a shooter, a whole layer of tactical options and considerations vanishes into thin air because they are unusable by the player who has no time to think, play nor witness their effects in the hectic pursuit of staying alive and ending others’. What sounded like finicky and sharp on paper suddenly turns into a blunt tool.

Fair enough, you're right. I didn't think about that. It'll definitely be tough to translate FNFF-style combat into a fast-paced TPS environment. Not impossible to bring some elements of it over, but certainly difficult.

Man, I really have no effin' clue how they're going to handle the shooting. I really can't wait to see some gameplay, if for no other reason than to see how the hell they intend to solve all of these issues.

 

[Suhiira]

Reading the pnp stuff gives an idea of a super realistic and finicky combat, but once you put that idea into a shooter, a whole layer of tactical options and considerations vanishes into thin air because they are unusable by the player who has no time to think, play nor witness their effects in the hectic pursuit of staying alive and ending others’. What sounded like finicky and sharp on paper suddenly turns into a blunt tool.

Pretty much.

One consideration CP2077 may ... I stress MAY ... have however is the cyberware.
If your opponent has some nice optics and you splatter his head with a shotgun at point-blank range you no longer have the opportunity to salvage them.

Incorporating something like this would give players ... even action shooter fans ... a reason to call their shots at least on occasion.

 

[Snowflakez]

Pretty much.

One consideration CP2077 may ... I stress MAY ... have however is the cyberware.
If your opponent has some nice optics and you splatter his head with a shotgun at point-blank range you no longer have the opportunity to salvage them.

Incorporating something like this would give players ... even action shooter fans ... a reason to call their shots at least on occasion.

Ooh, I like this idea a lot, actually. Maybe the more carnage you do (I.E. easier time you have.. Chucking a grenade probably ain't as hard as landing a disabling shot, so long as they don't chuck it back) the less any salvage is worth, or the less loot/cash you get, or -- like you said -- inability to salvage their cyberware.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Ooh, I like this idea a lot, actually. Maybe the more carnage you do (I.E. easier time you have.. Chucking a grenade probably ain't as hard as landing a disabling shot, so long as they don't chuck it back) the less any salvage is worth, or the less loot/cash you get, or -- like you said -- inability to salvage their cyberware.

Hell yes, that would actually make the enemies you fight have a semblance of value. This would also make battles much harder when you know you could just got for the kill but if you do, you'll miss out on the cool tech, so you keep the fight in check as long as you can until you can set them down lightly like a glass vase, and pluck the goods.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Pretty much.

One consideration CP2077 may ... I stress MAY ... have however is the cyberware.
If your opponent has some nice optics and you splatter his head with a shotgun at point-blank range you no longer have the opportunity to salvage them.

Incorporating something like this would give players ... even action shooter fans ... a reason to call their shots at least on occasion.

It might actually provide an interesting mechanic if the bodies were frail and the game kept track and reacted to the level of mess you left behind in some fashion (both favorably and unfavorably). Meaning that higher levels of violence would provide a reaction from the world (maybe even affecting the PC’s own psyche) that you might not want bestowed upon you, which would incentivize cleaner (harder to perform) kills and possibly less kills. Breaking tech and gear (like you said) might be one, but I’d go far further than that.

 

[Raxaphan]

The Xcom games have this mechanic where if you don't pay attention what you shot, or blow up, you can say bye-bye to your loot and corpses to study.
Also if there is something tragic happening to a member from the squad others, if not all of them, might panic and do crazy things.

I do enjoy this idea of a weak-point system and to be careful what you damage and how much you damage it.

 

[Snowflakez]

It might actually provide an interesting mechanic if the bodies were frail and the game kept track and reacted to the level of mess you left behind in some fashion (both favorably and unfavorably). Meaning that higher levels of violence would provide a reaction from the world (maybe even affecting the PC’s own psyche) that you might not want bestowed upon you, which would incentivize cleaner (harder to perform) kills and possibly less kills. Breaking tech and gear (like you said) might be one, but I’d go far further than that.

Yeah! I love that idea, too. The more the world reacts to our decisions (Small and large), the better in my opinion.

Honestly, this whole line of discussion is one of the rare times I'm seeing an idea that CDPR might actually like enough to implement. I can't vouch for the difficulty/complexity of such a system, but it at least seems doable and would add a lot to the gameplay. Would also serve to preserve even more of the PnP's feel, even in the context of a hypothetical shooter.

 

[RLKing1969]

I realize hit points are an abstraction to represent a player's skill in combat, but most gamers see them as an indication of how tough your character is.

I would prefer a system in CP2077 where every base character has the same mortality 'stat'. Any wound can be life threatening, but it's all the extras you have that mitigate threat. Combat endo-skeleton, mylar muscle enhancers, Quik-clotting synth-blood, etc. A bullet to the head should still ring your bell if you're hit though.

As it should. There is a good reason that the old PNP F.N.F.F rules considered a head shot to be X2 dmg and had some seriously negative mods, even if you DID manage to survive it. Being a long time player of the pnp, I always thought the idea for "levels" in a Cyberpunk game was lame anyway... The whole point was ANYONE, no matter HOW BAD ASS they were...or THOUGHT they were... could be killed at any time...So stay frosty and DON'T get shot in the FIRST PLACE! And remember kiddies, A hidden knife to the kidneys or a skilled use of a strangle wire will end it....no matter HOW badass you might THINK you are....As it should be.

 

[Razrback16]

IMO a headshot is a headshot, no matter the level it should be death instantly for the opponent.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

IMO a headshot is a headshot, no matter the level it should be death instantly for the opponent.

I actually don't really mind if it takes a couple of shots and a guaranteed instakill only comes from a critical hit. I'm not that much of a realism-hawk. There is the head gear to consider and also if the shot is a graze or a direct hit.

A headshot from a distance that doesn't kill can be interpreted as a nick in the earlobe or a scratch to the cheek or what ever else (provided the game does not by default turn your bullets into tracers... which is most certainly should not), and iirc, in CP2020, if you got close enough (i.e. point blank) the damage to the head was times 2 already without a critical so there's that too.

 

[Sardukhar]

CP2020, if you got close enough (i.e. point blank) the damage to the head was times 2 already without a critical so there's that too.

1 m to touching is maximum damage with a ranged weapon. And that is doubled to the head. More than 8 points to any limb in one attack is a Mortal check. More than 8 points to the head kills automatically.
Sooo...

a 5MM light pistol, .22 cal, would do 6 damage, then doubled to 12. Auto-kill. Of course, people are varying in toughness, (Body Type modifier) so most would be severely injured, but some (lower body types - netrunners, rockerboys, some corps) would be killed from that first shot.

 

[Snowflakez]

1 m to touching is maximum damage with a ranged weapon. And that is doubled to the head. More than 8 points to any limb in one attack is a Mortal check. More than 8 points to the head kills automatically.
Sooo...

a 5MM light pistol, .22 cal, would do 6 damage, then doubled to 12. Auto-kill. Of course, people are varying in toughness, (Body Type modifier) so most would be severely injured, but some (lower body types - netrunners, rockerboys, some corps) would be killed from that first shot.

How does the PnP justify a point blank shot to the head being a "severe injury" vs "death", even against the toughest folks out there? I assume the shooter has every opportunity to make sure the person is a goner if they're that close, don't think they'd let them get away with an "injury".