Ard Gaeth - the worst Echo card? - discuss

[Jamborinio]

Reasons it's crap:

1. Players row stack and massively reduce its value; particularly on the second turn once they know you have it.
2. It's not control so it doesn't kill important engines.
3. It uses up one of your vital redraws stopping you drawing a potentially better card next go.
4. It's 10 provisions when Red Riders does much the same for cheaper.
5. Blood Eagle and Coup de Grace are just da bomb. Even Dies Irae is good.
6. Maybe the Scoi'atel Echo card competes for bottom spot... hmmm
7. It's crap in the short round.
8. it's slow slow slow tempo.

 

[Barracuda88]

Yeah, gonna go with ST "by far" on this one.

Ard Gaeth is 12 for 10, granted with a bit of work, and potentially up to 18 with Eredin?

Weather can't be cleared or purified.

One thing they should maybe buff is the Queen needs to come out both, from the deck and graveyard, so that you can get her with the second use of the card as well.

 

[jed9653]

Reasons it's crap:

1. Players row stack and massively reduce its value; particularly on the second turn once they know you have it.

Couple things I've done to work around this part. Run a non-devotion frost deck with either lots of row movement units or pack Triss TK and lacerate to row punish with frost being the bait for them to row stack to begin with

 

[DRK3]

I agree that MO's Echo is pretty weak, and i have won with ease most games against MO WH, precisely because:
1) this weather effect, and WH in general, has very little removal, so any engines can run rampant
2) you rowstack, and deny lots of value to double row frost. i havent seen a single player use lacerate to punish my rowstack, then i might start losing against them more often..

But yeah, its not the worst, that "honor" goes to ST's Shaping Nature, 8pt boosts, or 5+5 vitality that only synergizes with Hamadryad, but that requires Hamadryad not to be killed instantly, or you play Shaping Nature with ME ability on the same turn you play Hamadryad... then you got a giant Hamadryad begging for tall removal.

I would say SY's Echo gets the 3rd place in the weak Echo cards category, and SK,NR and NG got really good Echo cards.

 

[jed9653]

I agree that MO's Echo is pretty weak, and i have won with ease most games against MO WH, precisely because:
1) this weather effect, and WH in general, has very little removal, so any engines can run rampant
2) you rowstack, and deny lots of value to double row frost. i havent seen a single player use lacerate to punish my rowstack, then i might start losing against them more often..

One of my two MO WH decks runs Triss and lacerate, not tier 1 deck by any means, but fun to see longer pause my opponent makes after lacerating while they refigure their whole strategy. My other is a pure devotion control frost deck with adda, and MO organic damage with some WH.

In both I still run the echo card to either bait for a lacerate, or to help my control cards have a better kill target.

 

[judgecsk]

I agree bout what's what's being said bout "Ard Gaeth".
It's been what, 2 weeks now since MM dropped..?
People have been reading, watching, learning and adapting as necessary to avoid frost DMG by row stacking, a non devotion deck or one that doesn't include "Ard Gaeth" starts to seem much more reasonable.
It was only a matter of time imo...
...aw well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

[Tyr117]

The main problem with this card is that it Summons your Frost Queen First round, which you don't usually want, it's better to keep this card for tempo play in the final round, and only in the first round if you are going to get card advantage or something.

 

[DRK3]

I agree bout what's what's being said bout "Ard Gaeth".
It's been what, 2 weeks now since MM dropped..?
People have been reading, watching, learning and adapting as necessary to avoid frost DMG by row stacking, a non devotion deck or one that doesn't include "Ard Gaeth" starts to seem much more reasonable.
It was only a matter of time imo...
...aw well, it was fun while it lasted.

I think only newer players needed to adapt to frost and rowstacking... beta players like me, because of beta weather-PTSD, started rowstacking vs Wild Hunt this expansion before even seeing the first frost come down

 

[judgecsk]

@DRK3
It makes sense.
Well...you'd be amazed at how many new players I've stumbled upon and put em into "the freezer" my friend.
Tbh when i started reading all of the comments on this forum about how every one is put in frost and how much unfair it was to go against a "Devotion" WH deck i was laughing my @$$ off since i am a new player and have already figured the solution like you proposed...makes you wonder...
The WH deck is not op... It's pretty far from it imo, a lil bit ridiculous if you're not prepared for it sure but not op like some say.
Experienced veterans like your self can easily outplay it's value.

 

[DRK3]

@DRK3
It makes sense.
Well...you'd be amazed at how many new players I've stumbled upon and put em into "the freezer" my friend.
Tbh when i started reading all of the comments on this forum about how every one is put in frost and how much unfair it was to go against a "Devotion" WH deck i was laughing my @$$ off since i am a new player and have already figured the solution like you proposed...makes you wonder...
The WH deck is not op... It's pretty far from it imo, a lil bit ridiculous if you're not prepared for it sure but not op like some say.
Experienced veterans like your self can easily outplay it's value.

Also, its not just experience, the faction you're using is also important when fighting off frost, with some factions dealing with it better than others - NG can use armored units to cancel a lot of frost damage, NR can also use armor or just simply get more points per turn with their engines, SK can use self damage and healing, ST can move units out of the frost, MO can use the Beast or Thrive to absorb some of the frost damage, SY i guess they can ignore the frost, as long as it doesnt remove their firesworn tokens for the wide boosts.

 

[judgecsk]

Admittedly I haven't thought of all the scenarios that might play out differently when using other factions to deal with the "frost menace" !
This is one of the reasons I love forums, people sharing their knowledge and helping each other understand different tactics-strategies.
Thanks for the tips !

 

[jed9653]

NG can use armored units to cancel a lot of frost damage

Surprisingly enough, most of what I see NG do to avoid frost is play whatever spies they have, and then recall them after the frost has left.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Both ST and MO are balanced, in a sence of balance should be like where high tier cards don't break even above their provision costs and risk involved. This does not imply to echo cards of other factions. Hence what should be done is to increase provision costs of other echo cards. This is balance in true sence and in alignment with developers previously stated intentions. However, their intentions arbitrarily seems to change, given the SK fiesta and reluctance to make any meaningful balance adjustments. GJ developers. You stay true, to whatever that is

 

[Guest 4368268]

I think both this card and coup de grace make for lousy echo cards, personally.
I think coup is amazing to use once and ard gaeth would be.. OK I guess. The problem is obvious: red riders exists and is way cheaper and more versatile. The idea of double frost is probably just getting your winter queen out. This card could be a Wild Hunt tutor and then the echo would actually be great too.

 

[MANSON1991]

This card could be a Wild Hunt tutor and then the echo would actually be great too.

Echo is a double card and WH only has 3 cards with synergy, one of which Eredin needs dominance, it is not good enough.