Why have voiced protagonist?

[kofeiiniturpa]

Voiced protagonist is a really bad choice for an RPG. And it’s a bad choice for CP2077 too.

I’ll leave it at that. Done this too many times and CDPR isn’t going to change their conviction about this, or anything else for that matter.

 

[CyberBrett]

I wonder how many of you wanting a silent protagonist were / are PnP players ? You people are used to voicing your characters .



To me when video games / computer games make an advancement like i voiced protagonist you can`t go backwards only forwards

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I wonder how many of you wanting a silent protagonist were / are PnP players ? You people are used to voicing your characters .

I played computer RPG’s before I got into PnP (though I haven’t played PnP in a good number of years). And with cRPG’s, I don’t ”voice” my character, I just interpret the lines somewhat like if I was reading a book. The voice I imagine my character might sound like, comes out naturally. With a voiced protagonist the interpretation and idea of my character is disrupted in an unfixable way and s/he is no longer ”my” character but the developers, and s/he will always sound the same no matter what kind of character I might have in mind. It’s predefined.

To me when video games / computer games make an advancement like i voiced protagonist you can`t go backwards only forwards

But voicing a protagonist is not an ”advancement” or ”going forward”. It’s just adesign choice.

It’s the same thing as with people claiming turnbased combat is obsolete and a result of technological limitations in the days of yore.

It’s not. Of course. Like giving the protagonist a voice, a conscious design choice to give the player a certain kind of experience.

Sometimes the voice fits the bill (narrative driven action adventures for example, say, Lara Croft in Tomb Rider, or Geralt in Witcher 3), other times it goes against the very idea of player agency (like with RPG’s where you are supposed to create your own character).

Yeah, I said I’d leave it, but I couldn’t help myself. Such is life.

 

[ChristophWr]

There is no advancement in having a voiced protagonist and it’s not lazy game design having a silent one.If you have fantasy a silent protagonist gives you much more immersion because you say exactly what’s in textbox and you are the voice.Its ageless and will always be a thing.In the first gameplay footage you can already see that your character doesn’t say what is written in the dialogue choice so there you go

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Since the main character is supposed to be us as the player or what have you, wouldn't reading the dialogue in whatever emotion we choose be impactful compared to the one emotion a VA chooses to do that may or may not fit what we had in mind?

Actually no, the main character isn't us but V.
C2077 isn't the kind of game where you can create yourself an avatar and immerse you in another world, it's a story about V, and V will have thoughts and feelings you have no controls about.

Post automatically merged: Dec 8, 2019

Cyberpunk will be somewhere in between those two games since V will be mostly custom.

Actually I'm under the reverse impression where you start your game with an almost already defined V (minus three background choices, appearance and the way V kill things) then can use some Jedi mind trick on V to try to influence V.

Post automatically merged: Dec 8, 2019

Because Cyberpunk is all about customization and being who you want to be.

No.

 

[Bondaebu]

Actually no, the main character isn't us but V.
C2077 isn't the kind of game where you can create yourself an avatar and immerse you in another world, it's a story about V, and V will have thoughts and feelings you have no controls about.

Strictly speaking, there are no 'one' game you can create yourself as an protagonist. all the dialogues are pre-written, interactions to the world are limited by non-existence of programming codes in video games. unless you develop real world simulator run by quantum computers. so it's relative stuff.

I, personally, think Cyberpunk is that kind of game you can play as yourself. because V's character (background, relationships, and so on) is much more up to you than Witcher or Deus Ex.

It's ok if you don't agree with me, because It's relative stuff. there are no closed answer here. but at the same time, you can't say that "in this game, you can't play as yourself because protagonist is V." either.

 

[StereoFlava]

it goes against the very idea of player agency (like with RPG’s where you are supposed to create your own character).

Except we are making our own V like Mass Effect with Shepard.
Mute characters in games CDPR are trying to make just dont fit and those who want proper RPGs in the first place will go and play something like DOS2, Pathfinder.
CDPR will never go for a mute character because their priority is story and characterization, they want us to feel for the character we play and how he/she creates relationships with others, you can't have that in a convincing way if the player character is mute.
There are pros and cons to both sides, but the way CDPR makes their games i will choose the voiced protagonist every time.

 

[Rawls]

Actually no, the main character isn't us but V.
C2077 isn't the kind of game where you can create yourself an avatar and immerse you in another world, it's a story about V, and V will have thoughts and feelings you have no controls about.

I think you quoted a quote I also quoted ... cause I didn't say what you quoted me as saying.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I find it interesting TOW was mentioned. I noticed myself tunnel visioning the text during dialogue in that game. Without actively thinking about it. The protagonist is silent and during dialogue the game doesn't show the player character. Incidentally, you have this odd disconnect where whenever the player speaks you're viewing text based dialogue options. There is no visual or auditory feedback. Conversely, when a NPC gets their turn you have both. For whatever reason, this disconnect made me naturally focus on the text in both cases.

A good counter-example would be Greedfall. The player character is both seen and heard during conversation. Here I spent most of the time looking and listening to the character when they took their turn in conversation. Very little focus was placed on the text itself beyond briefly looking at it to pick an option. NPC's followed the same rules so it was true there as well. Less time looking at text and more time watching and listening to the NPC during their turn.

Personally, between these two styles I preferred Greedfall. I felt more engaged with the characters. This is not to say I liked everything more about Greedfall though .

I'd be curious to know why a voiced protagonist is deemed "pointless" because of the game visual perspective. Going off my own examples above, the advantage of a voiced protagonist is the feedback from the character. It could be purely auditory (no view of the character). It could be auditory and visual (view of the character). In either case the purpose is the same. In my opinion, anyway.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Strictly speaking, there are no 'one' game you can create yourself as an protagonist. all the dialogues are pre-written, interactions to the world are limited by non-existence of programming codes in video games. unless you develop real world simulator run by quantum computers. so it's relative stuff.

I, personally, think Cyberpunk is that kind of game you can play as yourself. because V's character (background, relationships, and so on) is much more up to you than Witcher or Deus Ex.

It's ok if you don't agree with me, because It's relative stuff. there are no closed answer here. but at the same time, you can't say that "in this game, you can't play as yourself because protagonist is V." either.

Actually there is a lots of RPG where your character doesn't express thoughts and feelings, even in dialogues, so those are left to the player's discretion entirely which means it avoids Player Vs Character mental dissonance.

 

[Bondaebu]

Actually there is a lots of RPG where your character doesn't express thoughts and feelings, even in dialogues, so those are left to the player's discretion entirely which means it avoids Player Vs Character mental dissonance.

Technically, you can't say that you can play as yourself in some RPGs just because protagonists say nothing. in general, RPG gives you 3 or 4 dialogue options. what about other options? suddenly saying about your brother? or dinner you ate yesterday? It's just impossible because it's a video game. all of things about the game should be written in advance by developers.

So, the fact that the game gives you only 3 or 4 dialogue options itself is limiting your roleplay possibility. it means your character is already speaking their thoughts and feelings indirectly. because they can't say about their brother or dinner they ate yesterday. why can't your character suddenly say about unrelated thing, if you are 'truly' playing as yourself? I believe you can see contradiction of your argument.

You 'never' can roleplay as yourself in video games.

So it's pointless to say "You can't play as yourself in Cyberpunk." because opposite(the game you are playing as yourself) is not existent. but saying "It's 'more' up to you than other games." ? It's possible. because It's relative thing. you can't say about it as closed sentence.

Consequently, thing about 'in this game, can you play as yourself?'.. It's relative thing, so some can say "I can play myself in cyberpunk", and opposite is also can. it's up to the person how they receive the feeling of the game.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Except we are making our own V like Mass Effect with Shepard.

And both games face the same problem; predefinement. Although, ME does it's thing "more honestly" so to speak, since it's completely 3rd person and aims to be more like a semi interactive movie when it comes to dialog (like Witcher).

Mute characters in games CDPR are trying to make just dont fit

I guess we'll never know.

and those who want proper RPGs in the first place will go and play something like DOS2, Pathfinder.

Now, that's true. "Proper" RPG's lay elsewhere.

However, CDPR has been pushing the "tr00 RPG" and "you'll be creating your own character" sentiments since the info started flowing. This VO thing is one of those things that's selling them short on that.

CDPR will never go for a mute character because their priority is story and characterization, they want us to feel for the character we play and how he/she creates relationships with others, you can't have that in a convincing way if the player character is mute.

That's not true. CDPR perhaps won't go that way (we don't know that either, but it is indeed unlikely), but "feeling" the character is in many ways more viable through not predefining him. For one, the developer has much better chances of allowing the developement of expressions and characterizations that are beyond what is viable via voiceacting. And expressing relationships and what not is just a matter of how you write them; a voiceactor brings only limitations to what all ways you can do that because you have to write and adjust the dialogs for the voice you have.

 

[Guest 3847602]

This VO thing is one of those things that's selling them short on that.

It is, but you already said that the main problem is predefinement. Would it make a substantial difference if V is not voiced, but the game is still designed to be story focused and V's got the equally narrow range of responses during conversations because he/she has been largely predefined?

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Would it make a substantial difference if V is not voiced...

Yeah, it would. The voice alone brings in a boatload of predefinement. It's much easier to feel an ownership over the character and tolerate the possible "narrowness" of options, if I can interpret the lines as per how the dialog situation feels to me instead of having those lines read to me by a voice that might not match my idea of the character or his stance on the situation at all.

 

[Guest 3847602]

Fair enough, I kinda see your point, though I still think voiced one makes more sense for the story-driven game they seem to be making.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Technically, you can't say that you can play as yourself in some RPGs just because protagonists say nothing. in general, RPG gives you 3 or 4 dialogue options. what about other options? suddenly saying about your brother? or dinner you ate yesterday? It's just impossible because it's a video game. all of things about the game should be written in advance by developers.

So, the fact that the game gives you only 3 or 4 dialogue options itself is limiting your roleplay possibility. it means your character is already speaking their thoughts and feelings indirectly. because they can't say about their brother or dinner they ate yesterday. why can't your character suddenly say about unrelated thing, if you are 'truly' playing as yourself? I believe you can see contradiction of your argument.

You 'never' can roleplay as yourself in video games.

So it's pointless to say "You can't play as yourself in Cyberpunk." because opposite(the game you are playing as yourself) is not existent. but saying "It's 'more' up to you than other games." ? It's possible. because It's relative thing. you can't say about it as closed sentence.

Consequently, thing about 'in this game, can you play as yourself?'.. It's relative thing, so some can say "I can play myself in cyberpunk", and opposite is also can. it's up to the person how they receive the feeling of the game.

Your whole point concerning what I actually said is that you thinks someone forcibly says what they are thinking/feeling, which is not the case. If it was really like that then the world would be a lot more violent place.

The rest of your post is just extrapolation about words you put in my mouth.
Cause I see difference between game limitation and unwilling characterization, and while I can easely accept the first I have hard time about the second.

 

[Bondaebu]

Cause I see difference between game limitation and unwilling characterization, and while I can easely accept the first I have hard time about the second.

But you said cyberpunk is not that kind of RPG players roleplay as themselves, because V has voices and arbitrary dialogues.

And I'm insisting simply leaving out that features doesn't make the game RPG that players roleplay as themselves. Because developing that kind of games is inherently impossible as I said.

Speaking that an RPG its protagonist say anything is not an RPG played as I am is just 'your', 'relative', and 'subjective' standard. You can't argue with it like 'Oh It's not that kind of game' to this subjective matters.

V is talking? OK, but can I decide their past and relationship? future? It's enough to say this is an RPG that played as I am, to me.

I just wanted to say

Actually no, the main character isn't us but V.

this sentence was wrong. You just hate the fact that V has a voice, that's it. It has nothing to do with the arguments about RPG played as V or players themselves.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I remember CDPR said (or implied) a couple of months ago that.... paraphrasing from memory: ”it is important to them that the voiceacting doesn’t clash with the players idea of his character, and that they’ve taken some measures to ensure that”. Or something to that effect.

But I have no clue what that means. That V is voiced as emotionless and flat as possible to not put words/emotional responses to the players mouth? Or that VO can be adjusted somehow? Or that VO can be turned off? No idea.

The issue remains, though.

 

[Snowflakez]

I remember CDPR said (or implied) a couple of months ago that.... paraphrasing from memory: ”it is important to them that the voiceacting doesn’t clash with the players idea of his character, and that they’ve taken some measures to ensure that”. Or something to that effect.

But I have no clue what that means. That V is voiced as emotionless and flat as possible to not put words/emotional responses to the players mouth? Or that VO can be adjusted somehow? Or that VO can be turned off? No idea.

The issue remains, though.

To you: I'd never heard that, but I hope to see what they mean moving forward.

To the thread:

For me, silent protagonists are my first preference in the vast majority of RPGs, but I can understand and agree with design choices that go for a voiced alternative.

CDPR RPG? Voiced protagonist is expected and I believe it works well. It's not a freeform RPG, it's a linear (in terms of the overarching story and your character's pre-set personality) one. They are trying to add a bit (a lot?) more freedom, but none of us should be under any illusion that V is "our" character. She/he isn't. She/he is CDPR's character, and will be much more tightly bound by story and gameplay restrictions than the next type of RPG. This is not a criticism, just an observation.

Bethesda RPG? Sandbox RPG, story is not a focus. You are supposed to play whoever you want in a world of many, many possibilities. There are problems with this type of game design, but this is not the topic for them. Voiced is an awful idea here, and they learned that with Fallout 4. Also, voiced protagonist in an Elder Scrolls game would be nearly impossible to pull off with a reasonable budget. 10 races, male and female counterparts... Bad, bad idea, unless they want every single race to sound the same (except the beast races maybe). As a result, you can have more/greater variation in dialogue options.

Bioware RPG? The company's earlier games had silent protagonists and it didn't bother me at all (I liked it), but in this scenario, you're even more limited than a CDPR RPG, so I think voiced works here, too.

So, I guess I look at it on more of a case-by-case basis. I will almost always prefer silent protagonists over voiced, but there are scenarios where my mind can change and/or I feel a voiced protagonist better serves the type of game that's being made.

I think anyone who uniformly says voiced protagonists are always the best design choice needs a reality check, just as much as anyone who says silent protagonists are always the best choice.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

V is talking? OK, but can I decide their past and relationship? future? It's enough to say this is an RPG that played as I am, to me.

Minus from what we've seen until now, you can only very slightly choose V past (3 choices) and not choose V's relationships (at least at the start of the game where they are forced unto you) and about V's future...well we'll see if that whole mercenary thing will stay the whole game, but I doubt you can get rid of that.

Even if actually none of that forcibly define an RPG (as for example in Convention Tabletop RPG you are often using an already well defined character).

this sentence was wrong. You just hate the fact that V has a voice, that's it. It has nothing to do with the arguments about RPG played as V or players themselves.

Now I know exactly what you did: mixing different reactions together while they weren't forcibly linked.