Hand to Hand Combat

[Sardukhar]

Hand to Hand Combat

So, I vary between using the book version - Initiative, Att vs Defender, then do the other guy, then next action/round - and a slightly faster version which is Attacker vs Attacker and winner does damage. This also works vs Multiple attackers, if you subtract the attackee's result by 3 for every second attacker to account for multiple actions.

The second method does allow for fast reversals and quick hand to hand combat without the need for attack-defend-then attack-defend and do that for each person in a melee, but it also makes initiative almost pointless, since it no longer matters really who goes first, it matters who actually wins the opposed skill+stat+gear+dice check.

I guess my issue is that someone crazy-quick should be able to reach out and smack someone slow before they even start moving. Maybe have the init check and only defenders who are within...I dunno...2 actions, (6 points) of the attacker get to defend?

What does you thinks?

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

So, I vary between using the book version - Initiative, Att vs Defender, then do the other guy, then next action/round - and a slightly faster version which is Attacker vs Attacker and winner does damage. This also works vs Multiple attackers, if you subtract the attackee's result by 3 for every second attacker to account for multiple actions.

The second method does allow for fast reversals and quick hand to hand combat without the need for attack-defend-then attack-defend and do that for each person in a melee, but it also makes initiative almost pointless, since it no longer matters really who goes first, it matters who actually wins the opposed skill+stat+gear+dice check.

I guess my issue is that someone crazy-quick should be able to reach out and smack someone slow before they even start moving. Maybe have the init check and only defenders who are within...I dunno...2 actions, (6 points) of the attacker get to defend?

What does you thinks?

Would you ignore the first 'second' action if someone is Ambidexterous?

 

[Sardukhar]

Nah. Ambidexterity really doesn't make that much difference in combat, in my opinion. Useful if you want to switch-hit and offset your opponent, maybe, but that's about it.

Now, if you had dual cyberoptics and that chip that lets you individually target each hand separately, that could be interesting.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Cyber-Jet-Li?

 

[Sardukhar]

I was reading Pacific Rim again. I'd forgotten they had Gounghzu and Tatsujin (?) - those two oddball Solo classes that add a part of their Special Ability to all their primary skills, but don't use cyber.

They don't use cyber. THE BLASPHEMY. Still, some neat ideas.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

II don't have a copy on hand, can either of them specialise in Gunfu?

 

[Sardukhar]

I..don't recall. Huh. That could make up the difference in cyber handily, yeah, at least for shooting.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I..don't recall. Huh. That could make up the difference in cyber handily, yeah, at least for shooting.

Not to mention the sheer epicness of a true Gun-Fu master, dedicating his body and soul to the pursuit of the perfection of the combination of man and firearm.

 

[blank_redge]

Hm. In the case of H2H, you have two (or more) people trying to achieve the same goal (stomp the other guy) simultaneously.

With two participants, the idea of an opposed roll works for me; Init + Att + Skill + die roll. Whomever wins the roll, gets their action in. Then, next round of combat.

For multiple participants, the idea of the defender taking penalties makes sense to me, and the same mechanic could work. The defender may successfully dodge the overhand right from the one guy, but gets tackled and taken down by the other guy. I'd personally make the defender roll for each person, but you could just as easily have the defender roll once, and just check against all the attackers' individual rolls.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Using the additional action penalties, (which could be stacked,) for the opposed rolls against multiple opponents works for me.

Another useful point here is that at most only 5 people can gang up on 1. After that it gets too crowded and they start to get in each others way.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yep. Really only a relative few until you're on the ground and then more lay in the boots.

Not that it much matters - if it's 3 on 1 or 4 on 1 or 5 on 1 you better be a LOT better than they are and moving fast, or a LOT bigger. Preferably both.

One nice thing about FNFF is that the first guy to hit hard, often wins, especially after wound penalties kick in.

 

[quartermaim]

For me a few things come into play for hand to hand combat:

1. Awareness/Notice or Martial Artists + Intelligence checks vs. Stealth or Martial arts Checks.
2. Facedown checks.

When do people are going to throw down in my games, its either one of two things, a martial artist version of an old west gun fight, or a bar fight.
In "duels" my players get to do it one of two ways. They can roll every round as per the book, or then get to make three contested rolls.
The second one goes pretty much like this:
After the fist rolls the player describes what he or she wants to do I then describe how it goes depending on the NPCs counter roll.

Players take the average of the martial arts modifiers from their chosen martial art (or maximums per maneuver if they know an more than one martial art).
For each additional martial art they know they get a +1 per additional martial art they know.
I will give additional bonuses depending on the martial art and the environment.

Player makes first roll and gives me total.
I roll for NPC and take the total.

Then I run the first sequence as a scene. The player tell me what they want to do using the environment and then I tell them what they accomplish. This makes it more like a living fight since the players then will counter and use environmental opportunities. After about three rounds they roll again after I give damage and the damage modifiers are applied.

This works pretty well for me. I am considering running gunfights in a similar manner but I need to talk about it with my players.

As for the Pacific Rim Solo-ish roles I see them as amazing martial artists...and nothing more. I've never had a player want to play one.

They are cool in they are great for Sensei's since even with Cyberware they are really hard to hit with their bonuses when using martial arts or melee.

 

[username_3688833]

Using the additional action penalties, (which could be stacked,) for the opposed rolls against multiple opponents works for me.

Another useful point here is that at most only 5 people can gang up on 1. After that it gets too crowded and they start to get in each others way.

Clearly the delusional ravings of a madman who's never been the guest of honor at a boot-party

 

[quartermaim]

Clearly the delusional ravings of a madman who's never been the guest of honor at a boot-party

Ah Boot Parties the true power of Nomads and Boostergangs.

The worst Boot Party I was ever at the bottom of was a Bozo Boot Party...I lost two points of attractiveness, my left cyberoptic and had nightmares for months.

 

[username_3688833]

Yep. Really only a relative few until you're on the ground and then more lay in the boots.

Not that it much matters - if it's 3 on 1 or 4 on 1 or 5 on 1 you better be a LOT better than they are and moving fast, or a LOT bigger. Preferably both.

One nice thing about FNFF is that the first guy to hit hard, often wins, especially after wound penalties kick in.

Damn, knew I should have read the second page before swatting that one down, you beat me to it!

Still, I can at least split the odd hair with your second paragraph: The most awesome barfight I ever saw was (to use CP terminology to describe real-life happenings) a bunch of Nomads/gangers trying to mob a single Solo/Martial artist. The Solo backed himself up against a wall, and blocked ever shot he could, or at least took them where he could afford to, and every time he had an opening, he did the most destructive thing to one of them. End result was four ambulances, and the police requiring all the witnesses to insist repeatedly that they not arrest the solo. Turned out the guy did mostly Muay Thai but had also been training MMA in general, hence his staying against the wall to block their attempts at takedowns, usually with horrific knees. I can only inagine how much worse it would have been for the gangers if cyberware had been an option for the solo

 

[username_3688833]

Ah Boot Parties the true power of Nomads and Boostergangs.

The worst Boot Party I was ever at the bottom of was a Bozo Boot Party...I lost two points of attractiveness, my left cyberoptic and had nightmares for months.

There is something magnificently tragic about a failed boot party though. One time (irl) some ganger-equivalent drongos decided to throw me to the ground and let me have it. With their Air Jordans. So there I am, being stomped and laughing my arse off.... Finally they stop and demand to know what's so funny. I tell them through my thickening lips that they're stepping on my head with air-cushioned comfort, and asked if their encore was going to be a severe beating with a trampoline. They ended up leaving in disgust, and I moved on to the next town with the whites of my eyes bright blood-red and free mascara for a month. That kicking scored me more Goth-club punani than any other period in my life...

And some people ask me why I use so much humor in my campaigns...

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Clearly the delusional ravings of a madman who's never been the guest of honor at a boot-party

I was a bouncer for a while. Worst odds I have personally been in and come put on top was 23 to 4. I lost a tooth, cracked a rib and bust my nose, (that was the first time actually, even though I used to play rugby union - the man's version of rugby ) but Damn you should have seen the state of them! 6 of them needed ambulances.

Walls are your friend in that situation. But personally, I still say that only 5 people can gang up on 1 guy effectively before they start getting in each other's way. If you can keep moving, that drops to about 3 or 4 to 1.

When you go to the floor, that does change quite rapidly.

 

[username_3688833]

I was a bouncer for a while. Worst odds I have personally been in and come put on top was 23 to 4. I lost a tooth, cracked a rib and bust my nose, (that was the first time actually, even though I used to play rugby union - the man's version of rugby ) but Damn you should have seen the state of them! 6 of them needed ambulances.

Walls are your friend in that situation. But personally, I still say that only 5 people can gang up on 1 guy effectively before they start getting in each other's way. If you can keep moving, that drops to about 3 or 4 to 1.

When you go to the floor, that does change quite rapidly.

The one worthwhile piece of information my father ever imparted to me was as follows: Rugby League is a gentleman's game played by animals, whereas Rugby Union is an animals game played by gentlemen. The adage works quite well in the part of Australia I live in, where the differences couldn't be more apparent.

Oh, and I'll agree with the "effectively", but also mention that, insofar as mass-brawls go, if everyone was thinking about the effectiveness of their actions, I doubt they'd happen so often. I've been jumped by people who accidentally hit each other whilst trying to hit me, only to then break off into their own sub-brawls with each other as a result. Humans are such an... interesting species.

My favorite story about random violence was related to me recently by my sister, who witnessed two well-dresses, well made up young ladies with designer handbags walking past one another in the CBD. Their handbags caught one another, and they made two attempts at yanking them free before just losing it and wailing on each other in a barbaric rage. Closed fists, handfulls of hair and screams of abuse ensued. Man, I wish I'd seen it

In any case, any fighting system that allows the players all the time in the world to think, change tactics, and go off anything but instinct and trained responses presumes we're all Anderson Silva...

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

The one worthwhile piece of information my father ever imparted to me was as follows: Rugby League is a gentleman's game played by animals, whereas Rugby Union is an animals game played by gentlemen. The adage works quite well in the part of Australia I live in, where the differences couldn't be more apparent.

There is an english saying that goes the same way about football being a gents game played by thugs and rugby being a thugs game played by gents.

Humans are such an... interesting species.

I marvel at the fact we got past the stone age, though given the mental capabilities of some people I have met over the years, I have to wonder if all of us made it...

 

[Sardukhar]

In any case, any fighting system that allows the players all the time in the world to think, change tactics, and go off anything but instinct and trained responses presumes we're all Anderson Silva...

Yeah. Totally this. Totally, utterly this. We've all been there, although not for years, fortunately, and this gap you speak of is huge in games, PnP and others.

I understand PnP is fun and fights are not, same for video games, but even more than FPP or TPP, the ability to carefully plan out all your attacks or defenses just smashes all the disbelief-suspension I've been employing up until then. If any.

In PnP, I usually hold up a few fingers and start counting down once something crazy starts, whether it be fighting, important conversation or a serious hack attempt.

Unless the player is Anderson Silva, of course. Or the character. Maybe.


I'm told I run pretty fun games and exciting fight sequences and I really feel that tension is key. Not confusion, so much, although that is going to happen for sure, but the sense of Things Happening Now. To You.

Tension and drive.

It means later, if they survive and/or triumph, they really appreciate the chance to relax and enjoy the rewards.