An MMO Thread

[username_3688833]

Dying aint easy in WoD, unless you poke the werewolves. Then it's pretty much guaranteed.

Actually, id it my faulty memory, or did each new group/race/state of being that got released by WW massively overpower the previous one, or is that just me? If I'm even vaguely right, that could cause... balance issues, maybe?

 

[designer5]

1 - If Planetside 2 is so obviously superior, (and we know it is also free,) then why have CoD and Battlefield both got much higher player bases? Perhaps it is because they deliver a different style of gameplay that people find more attractive?
It's personal prference. Your preference is not the same as everyone elses.

PS2 is newer game and it is also in a bit different setting than the other games. Of course normal army simulator is the base line. But the same goes to every game. On the other hand, Cyberpunk isn't in that far future, so it has potential. And like I have many times said, there isn't as much stories in PS2 as I wish, so your point is moot.

2 - If MMO stories change the most, then how is it that no matter what the players do the dungeons, bosses and NPC's remain the same? You go back over and over again killing the same bosses in dungeons to get shiny stuff, but they all come back...
Sure, patches and expansions can change that, but individual players have no immediate change oin it, they can only chage the stories between themselves. You don;t need an MMO for that, standard multiplayer can, if used right, provide it AND you get a superior stopry within the game.

The same goes here again. I have already told that the MMOs should be better. But see? They can be better! And in any case they still have MMO virtual world where is other players. SPs don't have that.

3 - There are hundreds of posts about all sorts of stuff for 2077, and I am sure that if it were to be an MMO there would be many more threads, most of which would start with "Generic Thing #373 is OP!!!".
If you really believe that there would be more meaningful threads, then I personally think the doctor should up your meds.

I have listed couple of things myself of issues you could discuss. Have you already forgotten them? For example people could discuss about how different kinds of roles would fit into MMO play. And yes, the over poweredness of some skills is one issue to discuss, but then what? That is interesting to discuss, how do you manage roles in an MMO. THAT is interesting in itself, in some aspects more interesting than playing the game!

See? Even these forums have more multi "player" interaction than your SP game.

4 - Yes, MMO's have lots of stories, but they are far closer to stories like "The Hungry, Hungry Caterpillar" than they are to the works of Shakespeare. The stories within SP games can be much higher quality and much more interactive. They can also be affected by individual players much better.

They can make better stories for MMOs.

5 - Your ignorance of what Roleplay actually is astounds me. It is obvious that you are just another min-maxer and you cannot appreciate the sort of game that CDPR produce.
That is why I said don't bother buying 2077 when it comes out.

Right. But what is the point of not to min max? The whole idea is about survival: you won't survive very long if you train irrelevant things. There are many ways of surviving, for example you can be a biologist and get paid for inventions. But you better be a good biologist, not waste half your training time on something else, then. Otherwise you end up being some bum on the street trying to find more street tech to duct tape your bicycle together.

About as valid as the next guy that says; "Yes!" So, your argument devolves into:
"Yes."
"No."...
Such a productive argument, don't you think? Seriously though, as Cap. said, learn to "debate".

I have told many things for example in couple of my other previous posts here, so your argument is invalid and you are wrong!

But when I do say "no", I mean it. It is your problem, not mine, if you need more information or something. It doesn't help you to go wise about debating problems. If you are not able to ask for more information, the no is all you get.

 

[Sardukhar]

Dying aint easy in WoD, unless you poke the werewolves. Then it's pretty much guaranteed.

Actually, id it my faulty memory, or did each new group/race/state of being that got released by WW massively overpower the previous one, or is that just me? If I'm even vaguely right, that could cause... balance issues, maybe?

Garou, meh. You hear that, but unless they have that incredibly annoying Thieving talons of Magpie - if the GM is allowing crossover powers - they are still pretty vulnerable to silver bullets and mental powers. Compared to crossing the Tremere, I'd scrap a pack of Lupines any day.

The power creep really varied, since it depended on cross over rules, which were vague. 1st or arguably 2nd Ed Mages pretty much trumped everyone for power, since as WW points out in the Mage's Players Book, "Well, yes, a Mage -can- turn a Methuselah vampire into lawn furniture under the rules, but why would they?"

Hunters were kind of underpowered, demons were mid range, Wraiths were...wraiths, class of their own really.

Initially, WoD online will be just Vampires.

 

[username_3688833]

Garou, meh. You hear that, but unless they have that incredibly annoying Thieving talons of Magpie - if the GM is allowing crossover powers - they are still pretty vulnerable to silver bullets and mental powers. Compared to crossing the Tremere, I'd scrap a pack of Lupines any day.

The power creep really varied, since it depended on cross over rules, which were vague. 1st or arguably 2nd Ed Mages pretty much trumped everyone for power, since as WW points out in the Mage's Players Book, "Well, yes, a Mage -can- turn a Methuselah vampire into lawn furniture under the rules, but why would they?"

Hunters were kind of underpowered, demons were mid range, Wraiths were...wraiths, class of their own really.

Initially, WoD online will be just Vampires.

Which is all well and good till someone adds werewolves, then the forums would be hell with the OP vs way nerfed arguments. Cuz one way or another, a half-smart werewolf in full crinos(? Been so long and can't be arsed looking it up) vs anything 13th gen is a no-brainer, because he ate all their brains.

Seriously, I sat down once and made the most munchkiny Brujah with the melee and a silver claymore, and made a roleplay-worthy werewolf and rolled a few fights, and in none of them did the vamp walk away. In one he survived, but no legs = no walk...

 

[Sydanyo]

If you have ever played a game where you've used both Vampire: The Masquerade and Werewolf: The Apocalypse, you should know that if we're talking about something like 11th or 10th generation vampires, even 9th, any warrior werewolf pup will rip them to shreds with absolutely no trouble at all. You'd have to have a vampire with a heavy machine gun with silver bullets to take down such a foe, or you'd have to be higher generation with actually useful powers, not just some celerity and potency. Then there's the small fact that the Garou usually come in packs, and they can sidestep to safety at will.

When we start lowering the vampire generations, then it starts to get more interesting, but the higher werewolf gifts aren't exactly something to sneer at. Silver immunity, for example, or radiating sunlight. Tremere are obviously a bunch of annoying bitches, but even vampires hate them, and they're a special case.

So yeah... If you're some tough guy vampire, terrorizing people with your friends at the edge of town, if you're lucky enough to even see a war form approach you, run.

Now... Throw magi into the mix, and you shift the power dynamic completely.

On that note, I truly hope that CCP pulls through and makes the WoD MMO happen, mainly because it's original World of Darkness, and not the new shit (I'm allowed to say that, I have the rule books, and the new WoD is shit.)

 

[Sardukhar]

Or you levitate into the air and empty laser-sighted heavy pistol silver bullets into them, with a WP grenade for dessert. Or, instead of a claymore, you use silver throwing axes. Movement is tricky, if they have enough Rage, though. Obfuscate can make it a lot easier.

Or you have really high Presence and it's all a moot point. That last depends on how the GM is handling cross-over powers.

This is probably why WW is going to just have vampires for the first game. Balancing Brujah vs Toreador alone is going to be hard enough. If they bother.

MMO balance - outside combat, do you guys think it's all that necessary?

 

[Sydanyo]

Or you levitate into the air and empty laser-sighted heavy pistol silver bullets into them, with a WP grenade for dessert. Or, instead of a claymore, you use silver throwing axes. Movement is tricky, if they have enough Rage, though. Obfuscate can make it a lot easier.

Or you have really high Presence and it's all a moot point. That last depends on how the GM is handling cross-over powers.

This is probably why WW is going to just have vampires for the first game. Balancing Brujah vs Toreador alone is going to be hard enough. If they bother.

MMO balance - outside combat, do you guys think it's all that necessary?

Dude, you do realize werewolves can carry tech as well? Imagining a scenario where a vampire has these amazing gadgets, but is a complete pussy himself, but because of his amazing tech wins out over a werewolf is pretty pointless. The werewolf can use tech, and can have access to tech just as easily. Remember, they can sidestep in and out of any installation developing this shit. If they choose to steal, they can steal it.

Rather, imagine a situation where the vampire has nothing but his claws and his fangs, his potency, celerity and whatnot, and is facing that mean Get ahroun in crinos form.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, I never saw that happen, though, Macleod. Vamps always have tech, ghouls, escape disciplines or something. Slippery leeches. Especially if Garou were thought to be anywhere near.

Outside cities, of course, you're pretty screwed. One or two Lupines are handleable. A pack....no.

Maybe if a Garou managed to infiltrate deep enough to jack Elysium or something. That would be highly entertaining. THIS is a reason to have a WoD MMO.

Garou don't use tech very often, not serious tech, aside from Glasswalkers. In Crinos form, other than a Glaive, no. If they are in human or Glabros, maybe, but the furries generally go to Crinos at the drop of a hat.

Far more fearsome than a Garou using tech is a Garou deploying their Gifts properly.

Killing a raging Lupine as he charges at you isn't half as hard as killing a raging Lupine as he charges you after using Howl of Death, for example...yi.

I'm not into empty-room scenarios, so most of this is based on what I saw playing and running games.

Which isn't to say my players ever, ever took Lupines less than seriously. Goddamn agg damage claws ensure that.

Edit: also, these aren't amazing gadgets. Heavy revolvers are hardly uncommon. Vampires being complete pussies isn't too common either. Flight is from Movement of Mind 3 - makes you pretty hard to melee at 100 yards up.

If you -do- go the amazing gadgets route, and I have when necessary, it's much, much easier. Of course, at that point in the game, the enemy is often geared up as well and everything is good and messy.

 

[Sydanyo]

"Lupine" is a term from Vampire. It's different to run a game of V:tM with the half-assed werewolf rules, than to actually mix V:tM and W:tA and use all the rules. I'm still guessing you did do the latter, and you're just using the half-assed lupine term from Vampire to spite me.

In any case, when you get made a vampire, you're something like 12th, 11th, 10th generation, and you have nothing. You most definitely do not have high tech. You barely stay alive. Vampires aren't close-knitted. They don't love their kin. They do whatever makes them richer, or lets them exist longer. As such a whelp, you won't be in any state to take on any Garou. However, any Garou who has just opened their eyes to their true self has all their weapons handy. Control, perhaps not, but they'll rip through anything you put in front of them. And they'll most likely have all their family watching over them.

The image of Garou people have is a bit wrong I think. Yes, Glass Walkers are the internet geniouses, and yes the Get likes to punch each other a lot. But that doesn't mean time doesn't go on, as well as technology. True, Garou do fight the Wyrm and the Weaver, but there's a lot of green technology out there, a lot of technology that can co-exist with the wild (or the Wyld.)

The WoD world is turn of the millennium, and honestly we've leaped forward a lot since then. While Pentex keeps doing all they can to smother the Earth, technology has reached a place where I for one can see the Garou embracing some of it, since it doesn't hurt Gaia. It's a tool to be used.

Anyways.... Woe be the vampire caught alone against a lone werewolf, as far as game mechanics go.

 

[username_3688833]

MMO balance - outside combat, do you guys think it's all that necessary?

Um... well, no, not outside of combat... But "Outside of combat" is a pretty presumptuous term in relation to an MMO...

For all their bent on roleplaying, there will still be combat, and they'll have to herd thousands of "Magic The Gathering" card gamers like frikken cats, along with everyones little brother playing whatever race "wins" and ganking you on an hourly basis.

Seriously, they're considering permadeath, why in (insert fictional deity here)'s name would you play something that is comparatively squishy? Especially when you could spend like 2 years roleplaying your awesome Vampire toon, investing all that time and money just to get ambushed by some random 9yo full crinos screaming "SuX0RZ nUbcAek!".

This is the world of MMO... It's high school lunchtime and the teacher isn't looking...

 

[Sardukhar]

"SuX0RZ nUbcAek!" I so totally see this happening, too.

It's 13th gen, typically, Mac, and you could easily start with wealth and gear and connections. Or start at 9th gen and don't have wealth and gear and connections. Or some combination. This isn't high tech we're talking, either, not sure why you think silver bullets and .454 revolvers are high-tech.

You can't mix the games and use all the rules - too many contradictions. You have to pick and choose and wedge and squeeze.

I would say that Lupines are not unstoppable death-machines, any more than Mages are omnipotent super heroes. Both can be and are killed fairly easily. With game mechanics in-play.


Without modern technology, it's harder. Much harder. Unless, again, you have high Presence or something and the Garou never shifts to Crinos because they would rather die than upset you.

The question of balance in an MMO is interesting, because it immediately presents the simplicity in MMOs to date:it's all about combat.

Depending on game system, Socially built characters can be quite powerful. In CP2020, a corporate can be akin to a God. In Exalted, you can take over cities or NPCs with your wit and charm. In WoD, there are abilities that let you over-write another person's mind or memories - or make them emotionally dependent on you.

 

[username_3688833]

"SuX0RZ nUbcAek!" I so totally see this happening, too.

It's 13th gen, typically, Mac, and you could easily start with wealth and gear and connections. Or start at 9th gen and don't have wealth and gear and connections. Or some combination. This isn't high tech we're talking, either, not sure why you think silver bullets and .454 revolvers are high-tech.

You can't mix the games and use all the rules - too many contradictions. You have to pick and choose and wedge and squeeze.

I would say that Lupines are not unstoppable death-machines, any more than Mages are omnipotent super heroes. Both can be and are killed fairly easily. With game mechanics in-play.


Without modern technology, it's harder. Much harder. Unless, again, you have high Presence or something and the Garou never shifts to Crinos because they would rather die than upset you.

The question of balance in an MMO is interesting, because it immediately presents the simplicity in MMOs to date:it's all about combat.

Depending on game system, Socially built characters can be quite powerful. In CP2020, a corporate can be akin to a God. In Exalted, you can take over cities or NPCs with your wit and charm. In WoD, there are abilities that let you over-write another person's mind or memories - or make them emotionally dependent on you.

Man, that'd be the benefit of permadeath, as well as the drawback. On one hand, the urge to do something stupid (like cap a corp in the street) is moderated by the likelihood of your death. On the other hand, there's always the option of making "Polymer one-shot" toons to do that sort of thing.

To be honest, that's what has put me off playing EVE. The combination of massive timesink and possible permadeath makes it almost too realistic, at least to the point of killing any of the reasons I play games...

Still, not to say I wouldn't give WoD a go... Just because I can forsee potential issues doesn't mean I believe they're insurmountable. So long as the bulk of players are WW nutters, there'd be a lot of "not dingleberries" to play with.

Although, it's always struck me as odd that the business model of MMO's seems to revolve around trying to build and maintain as many players as possible. Very much a quantity over quality proposition. Considering just how much of an impact other players can have on the quality of the game, this has always struck me as, well, poor quality control. I think it'd be interesting to have at least one MMO in which there is a strong and well-coded police force that prevents and punishes massive acts of douchebaggery. Like, I dunno, random npc's call in a gun/knife/sword-bigger-than-it's-wielder/giant-death-claws/fireball fight in progress, and there's a timer before the cops come. So best to finish your fight quickly, and not hang around respawn-killing and corpse-teabagging. That'd also give the weaker ones the tactic of trying to outlast the meter, rather than duel to their inevitable death.

Which makes me wonder about cops in CP2077... Just how much GTA-style mayhem will be allowable? I remember I used to park a car out front of a respray joint then blow up passing cars till the army arrived, then hop in and drive 8 feet to safety. Not sure how that sits with "Immersion"...

 

[Sardukhar]

Ah, the permutation of consequences. Hard to put in a game and keep things fun. An MMO makes it harder, unless you just have guards spawning. One per enemy PC seen was the rule in WoW, I believe.

I think we will see a setting like you describe, Cap. Not for awhile, maybe, but eventually. An MMO where quality and quantity are better balanced and the world is responsive to player actions.

I don't know how popular it will be - people, especially young people - enjoy games that give them more freedom than the real world permits. The tradeoff for realism and consequences is usually less freedom.

But who know? Something like permadeath and a realistic police force could be on the horizon. Or perhaps a game that, like a good PnP session, reflects not so much imminent death but the usual range of dangers: wounding, loss, sorrow, ambition's compromise.

 

[username_3688833]

Well, we can always dream, can't we? Or just play more PnP

 

[dragonbird]

But who know? Something like permadeath and a realistic police force could be on the horizon. Or perhaps a game that, like a good PnP session, reflects not so much imminent death but the usual range of dangers: wounding, loss, sorrow, ambition's compromise.

We need an MMO version of P:T

 

[Sardukhar]

*swoons*

Only good! Right? Because, wow.

And have chat filters cut out or supplant the usual crap with "berk" and "cutter" and "cant"! And instead of XP for kills, you get it for clever speech choices, which would have to be dynamic, running on some kind of Watson-class AI...

And that art.

I shall dream of this.

 

[227]

We need an MMO version of P:T

I know you're just being evil, but it would totally work.

Seriously. Blood War. Tanar'ri versus Baatezu in an eternal war where they're equally balanced, everyone involved is insufferable, and nothing significant ever changes? That's perfect for an MMO. Also, "go to hell" would no longer be an offensive comment toward MMO players, but would instead be a helpful suggestion.

 

[dragonbird]

Buggerit. I can't even troll successfully. I'm having a really, really bad day.

 

[Garrison72]

I saw it.

 

[Sardukhar]

No, no. This is a great idea. I'm really hoping someone who will make a great MMO one day has read this.

Planescape Torment as the MMO design doc. Why not? Why not strive for the best?