A Predefined Protagonist & Character Creation Don't Work Together in Cyberpunk 2077

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Many games do decide on an extremely neutral approach to voicing their protagonists. Personally, I've never liked this approach, which is why I've always preferred silent protagonists. I'd argue that, with Mass Effect 1, we finally received a protagonist that was voiced with enough nuance and personality that it was very engaging. I was initially really disappointed when Dragon Age Origins had a silent protagonist, but I quickly came to accept and understand it.
In fact "before" it had never really bothered me, at least I had never really wondered about it. And now after playing Cyberpunk a lot, when I relaunch for example Outer World (Not voiced character, you can personalize it but you will never see it apart in the inventory), I must admit that it feels weird. As if something was missing during "dialogues" (monologues in fact), some sort of "interractions" between "us" ans the interlocutor.

Well that's also only my opinion, but I also find that in Cyberpunk, the dialogue lines of V are generally very good, even awesome. Like with Hellman "Or did you think the first thing that came to mind was downing a Kang Tao AV?".
I think, it's impossible to "express" that kind of things with words only :(

So if someone ask me now what is the best, "voiced character" for sure (if it's well done obviously). Before Cyberpunk, it was probably more "whatever, I don't care" :)
 
You're identifying the issue exactly here. Just because I come up with an interpretation, it doesn't mean that it's a good interpretation. Johnny is a developed character and personality. The look he's given in the game works out beautifully. Everything just feels natural. It's something you don't pay a lot of attention to, and that's the point. The audience just naturally accepts the look and it blends into everything: the setting, the action, the character's voice, the movement, the story, etc.

Conversely, a lot of people responded poorly to the "alternate look". It stuck out. It didn't feel right for the character. Its doesn't blend in with what has been pretty clearly established for Johnny. It's a visualization that seems to clash with character traits that make Johnny...Johnny.
I was trying to say, that thing is hideous, no matter where you put it. I'm totally cool with it as it's entirely optional and has huge comedy value, but like I wrote, some things just don't mix.

No crutch at all -- this is the whole genre! These are the other productions and expressions of exactly this style of art (game design) that CP2077 will be competing against on the market. These are the titles that directly set the standards that studios are all trying to raise. (Not the least of which was TW3, as it is something that now casts its shadow over even CDPR, itself. A very hard act to follow. The same can be said about Skyrim vs. Fallout 4 at Bethesda.)

I also think that you may be mixing up the motif and aesthetics of world-building with the real-world considerations for cohesive delivery of a piece through a given medium. It's totally irrelevant if Cyberpunk is a world in which body augmentation and sculpting is a normal thing. Regardless of that element of world-building in the Cyberpunk universe, creating characters that resonate with a real-world audience is still a real-world consideration.
It's very relevant as setting supports wildest V's imaginable regardless of how things may work in other game universes or what some individual player may feel what clicks with their vision. Limiting character creation options would limit options for players who would just go with style that has been in game since tabletop.
Also, the other games offer just as much if not more customization in their character creation engines. The key is that once a player creates a given look for a character, comes up with a backstory, decides on what their character should sound like, how they act...there's little to nothing that happens in the game to dispel that illusion. In Cyberpunk, if I manage to create a character that's too far away from the intended portrayal of V, I probably won't get through the tutorial opening before I start to feel that my visulaization just doesn't fit.
This is a different concern. You're responding here to creating a character as a writer, not a player. I'm not saying that there should be no character creation menu -- I'm saying that the options provided -- the types of hairstyles and facial features, and scars, and chrome -- that are available during that section would benefit by being limited to combinations that better capture the essence of V.

Yes, this would limit player freedom in expression, but it would increase the wider resonance of the V the game tries to define in such detail.
It's creative process regardless if media is visual or not. Character creation process really isn't menu, menu is just a feature that enables players to output their vision of character, their thoughts and what they feel would fit. It's just that in this case that creative process is projected to visual project via character creator feature instead of text.
Many games do decide on an extremely neutral approach to voicing their protagonists. Personally, I've never liked this approach, which is why I've always preferred silent protagonists. I'd argue that, with Mass Effect 1, we finally received a protagonist that was voiced with enough nuance and personality that it was very engaging. I was initially really disappointed when Dragon Age Origins had a silent protagonist, but I quickly came to accept and understand it.
Voiced protagonist has become mainstream because that's what clicks with the audience. Haven't played Dragon Age but FO3 had silent protagonist IIRC. Don't remember if there was voiced dialogue in Wasteland 3. Silent protagonist I think is economic choice for studios as it enables creation of lot's of dialogue options and conversation paths between protagonist and NPC's. It has other perks from role playing perspective and I see that can become convenient feature in big budget creations.
CDPR really knocked it out of the park with TW2 and TW3, though. And I think that V follows in Geralt's footsteps: a nuanced performance that makes the player character feel completely immersed in the action of the story, rather than a silent observer or outsider that gets caught up in other characters' issues.

In the future, I fully expect we'll see more variety in this regard. Perhaps studios with enough resources to have 6 different actors voice the whole game as potential protagonists for players to choose from. Something like that would definitely throw the doors open a lot wider for creating more diverse characters that still feel like they fit.
It's not just about bottlenecks I wrote about but also that's also easily ~70% more disc budget on end users end.
Players have always loved creating their own characters. I normally spend hours and hours fiddling with things -- only to have my character look differently in the game than it looked in the creation screen -- at which point I'd back out and start over. 😁

I'd say there's a large market for it. Anything that offers players ways of connecting more with a game is always a big hit. But, like anything else, balance in all things. It's possible to overdo it, as well. Very often, less is more.
I was just browsing LowSodiumCyberpunk today and saw some V's where their creator had put a lot of effort to them. This one was particularly impressive but there are factors that has been covered in this topic many times already.
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Well that's also only my opinion, but I also find that in Cyberpunk, the dialogue lines of V are generally very good, even awesome. Like with Hellman "Or did you think the first thing that came to mind was downing a Kang Tao AV?".
I think, it's impossible to "express" that kind of things with words only :(

So if someone ask me now what is the best, "voiced character" for sure (if it's well done obviously). Before Cyberpunk, it was probably more "whatever, I don't care" :)
Forgot that one, yeah, that's how much I usually pay attention.

But with V' for me it started to matter over time and scene where I was explaining to Theo what happened to Brandon, first dialogue option I picked was kinda like being an asshole but then after that I was able to back pedal and tones were just right. That's with male V and that's not only voice work but also voice directing there and writers anticipating player reaction and goals. Phenomenal work really.

That's why I picked that scene for my example earlier in this topic. It's no stakes situation for V, one of rare circumstances where it's not about negotiation or power play, just emotion and compassion in difficult situation with no strings attached.

Make that work with several actors with different accents and that, maybe that happens one day but I just don't see that day coming anytime soon.
 
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I was trying to say, that thing is hideous, no matter where you put it. I'm totally cool with it as it's entirely optional and has huge comedy value, but like I wrote, some things just don't mix.
While I agree that I don't think it's a valid look for Johnny Silverhand, there's nothing inherently wrong with any visualization, in and of itself. If we're talking about, saaay, a slimy, smooth-talking character -- a devious shark of the financial world that makes backroom deals in order to get rich on the side, with connections to the underworld and a penchant for wearing their ego on their sleeve -- then here's a look that works great:
1633549773293.png

When we're talking about a rockeryboy that's become a renowned figure in the world of Cyberpunk -- a radical and a terrorist with a shadowed past, but also a legend of music and someone that fostered a massive following both alive and dead -- "Where's Johnny?" Well, the above visualization probably won't work out, but this one will:
1633550166983.png

Two different looks that resonate with two totally different characters. It's the same consideration if the game is going to be defining traits about the player character rather than the player.


It's very relevant as setting supports wildest V's imaginable regardless of how things may work in other game universes or what some individual player may feel what clicks with their vision. Limiting character creation options would limit options for players who would just go with style that has been in game since tabletop.
And here's where there was a major disconnect with the the game overall for a lot of players. I can still remember, in many posts, trying to stress that there's no way of making a tabletop game into a CRPG. Different games can come closer, or they can be further away, but a CRPG is not the same thing as a tabletop RPG. Many was the time, since 2015, that I argued people expecting CP2077 to be a 1:1 translation of the Cyberpunk 2020 sourcebook, simply turned into a video game, were going to be disappointed. They're two different mediums.

Here, what we have is the game trying to allow for the same sort of wildly open-ended character creation that would work better with a less narrative design. (But, that would also negate a huge amount of the awesome storytelling that CDPR is noted for.) Defined narratives require defined characters. That includes visualization. If the player character is defined, the visualization options would be best off sticking with that.

Voiced protagonist has become mainstream because that's what clicks with the audience. Haven't played Dragon Age but FO3 had silent protagonist IIRC. Don't remember if there was voiced dialogue in Wasteland 3. Silent protagonist I think is economic choice for studios as it enables creation of lot's of dialogue options and conversation paths between protagonist and NPC's. It has other perks from role playing perspective and I see that can become convenient feature in big budget creations.
Yes and no. Ironically, perhaps, that's the way I feel about it perfectly. I absolutely love some of the voice work we've seen for protagonists in games ever since Mass Effect 1. I am still, overall, a fan of silent protagonists.

It's not just about bottlenecks I wrote about but also that's also easily ~70% more disc budget on end users end.
The amount of "disk space" required is going to be the #1 caveat here. Obviously, if I'm going to distribute it, I need to have it hosted on multiple servers. More space = more cost over time. It definitely would impact sales.

Biggest thing aside from that, though, is the time, effort, and expense of making the recordings. It would mean thousands of additional man hours to staff the studio, pay the voice actors, edit the recordings, hand them off to the devs to put into the game itself...

Yeah. That's a lot. All to provide the player a single choice that will result in the vast majority of all that work never being seen in the game.

But it would be cool. :p

I was just browsing LowSodiumCyberpunk today and saw some V's where their creator had put a lot of effort to them. This one was particularly impressive but there are factors that has been covered in this topic many times already.
Cool design! Not sure if it really captures "V", per say, but there's a prime example of the other side of the argument. People that just don't really care and make things that resonate for them.
 
In fact "before" it had never really bothered me, at least I had never really wondered about it. And now after playing Cyberpunk a lot, when I relaunch for example Outer World (Not voiced character, you can personalize it but you will never see it apart in the inventory), I must admit that it feels weird. As if something was missing during "dialogues" (monologues in fact), some sort of "interractions" between "us" ans the interlocutor.

Well that's also only my opinion, but I also find that in Cyberpunk, the dialogue lines of V are generally very good, even awesome. Like with Hellman "Or did you think the first thing that came to mind was downing a Kang Tao AV?".
I think, it's impossible to "express" that kind of things with words only :(

So if someone ask me now what is the best, "voiced character" for sure (if it's well done obviously). Before Cyberpunk, it was probably more "whatever, I don't care" :)
It was the same thing I felt after finishing with Mass Effect 1, finally Dragon Age Origins is released, and...wait...my character doesn't speak!? Awww...

So crestfallen. Initially at least...

As the story progressed, I grew to very much appreciate it, as it was possible to come up with some very, very disparate Grey Wardens. I appreciated the game letting me impart my own interpretation to it. Conversely, with the narrower approach to Dragon Age Inquisition, I was happy to have my Grand Inquisitor voiced. I can't imagine Mass Effect with a silent Sheperd. I really wanted my character in Fallout 4 to be silent. Like, right away. About 3 minutes in.

All depends on the game. But I am very happy to play as V with the story and characters we get in CP2077.
 
You're saying that the game forces you to be bff with Johnny? Even though you can essentially tell him to piss off at every turn, even though his quetstchain is optional, even though the ending sequence in Mikoshi differs depending on how friendly the two of your were?
Your relationship with Johnny is not predetermined at all.
The outcome of the story isn't predetermined, but your character's entire story after the heist revolves around your situation with Johnny. Even the other important characters (apart from River) revolve around the resolution of that story.

Contrast with an RPG proper, where you explore the world, meet all sorts of people, resolve all sorts of situations, etc. Maybe there's a central antagonist, but you're not forced to interact with him every five minutes - it's usually a looming presence that you find clues to, uncover as you go, while you move through the world.

As I said to LeKill3rFou, I don't really have a problem with the V/Johnny story or how it's handled in and of itself - it's a good "action-adventure," and would have worked as such quite without any of the RPG palaver. Or it might have worked very well as the culmination of the game, or as a separate DLC. The only problem is that the RPG palaver is what the game was advertized as, and what most people were anticipating, but it's underdeveloped in favour of the narrow funnel of the "action-adventure" that's over in about 20-30 hours if you take the urgency seriously.
 

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The outcome of the story isn't predetermined, but your character's entire story after the heist revolves around your situation with Johnny. Even the other important characters (apart from River) revolve around the resolution of that story.

Contrast with an RPG proper, where you explore the world, meet all sorts of people, resolve all sorts of situations, etc. Maybe there's a central antagonist, but you're not forced to interact with him every five minutes - it's usually a looming presence that you find clues to, uncover as you go, while you move through the world.

As I said to LeKill3rFou, I don't really have a problem with the V/Johnny story or how it's handled in and of itself - it's a good "action-adventure," and would have worked as such quite without any of the RPG palaver. Or it might have worked very well as the culmination of the game, or as a separate DLC. The only problem is that the RPG palaver is what the game was advertized as, and what most people were anticipating, but it's underdeveloped in favour of the narrow funnel of the "action-adventure" that's over in about 20-30 hours if you take the urgency seriously.
What you call RPG proper looks like a sandbox to me - something without clearly defined goal other than "get rich, get famous", which is excruciatingly cliche premise. CDPR doesn't make sandboxes, simple as that. Story comes first.
By your definition Planescape: Torment wouldn't classify as an RPG.
 
Even the other important characters (apart from River) revolve around the resolution of that story.
Maybe also apart Judy who her side quest is about the clouds/dolls/Woodman/Maiko/Tygers.
Maybe also Kerry who his side quest is about US Crack.
Maybe also Panam who her side quest is about Aldecaldos and Saul.
Maybe also the Peralez quest line...
Wait, also Johnny side quest is about him and Rogue (and Smasher).

Actually, most of the side quests don't concern V's problem/death/relic at all... maybe you have prioritized too much the MQ and didn't play the side quest, I wonder in fact.

In my opinion, it is part of the questioning induced by the game, if you have a good chance of dying, what are you going to do. Try to live "normally" (help poeple, maybe have a romance, doing jobs,...) or try to find a "cure" by all means (even if it seems doomed and it will be a wast of time).
 
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What you call RPG proper looks like a sandbox to me - something without clearly defined goal other than "get rich, get famous", which is excruciatingly cliche premise. CDPR doesn't make sandboxes, simple as that. Story comes first.
By your definition Planescape: Torment wouldn't classify as an RPG.
You explore the world in any RPG - both theme parks and sandboxes are ways of exploring a virtual world, one is just more focused, the other looser. But at every point you are discovering new things about the world, it's denizens, its history, etc.

And the open world in CP2077 is somewhat sandboxy. Remember that part of the initial idea was for CDPR themselves to explore new territory in RPG design. TW3 was already a departure from the previous games in having much more of a sandbox element, and this game was supposed to move somewhat away from the pre-defined character role they'd become associated with via Geralt.

And from the looks of the hype videos it seemed like they were going to do that - that's part of the reason there was so much excitement. CDPR had mastered one thing, and we were all excited to see what they'd do with a different type of game design.
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Maybe also apart Judy who her side quest is about the clouds/dolls/Woodman/Maiko/Tygers.
Maybe also Kerry who his side quest is about US Crack.
Maybe also Panam who her side quest is about Aldecaldos and Saul.
Maybe also the Peralez quest line...
Wait, also Johnny side quest is about him and Rogue (and Smasher).

Actually, most of the side quests don't concern V's problem/death/relic at all... maybe you have prioritized too much the MQ and didn't play the side quest, I wonder in fact.

In my opinion, it is part of the questioning induced by the game, if you have a good chance of dying, what are you going to do. Try to live "normally" (help poeple, maybe have a romance, doing jobs,...) or try to find a "cure" by all means (even if it seems doomed and it will be a wast of time).

The characters in the SQs that are related to the MQ have their own concerns, but they're also deeply involved with the MQ, and that's their main function. For example, your helping Panam in her thing leads her to help you in your thing in an important way that leads all the way to one alternative ending. The SQs resolve some important elements of the MQ, River's doesn't do that, and neither Kerry nor Peralez is a main character in the sense that Judy, Panam and Takemura are.

I would agree with your point re. the questioning, except moseying off and helping others counters the MQ, for if you don't try and find a resolution for your problem, you will certainly die. So "helping others" is a certain death sentence. (Actually come to think of it, that could have been a more dignified way of saying "fuck it" than the rather perfunctory version toward the end.)
 
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The characters in the SQs have their own concerns, but they're also deeply involved with the MQ, and that's their main function. For example, your helping Panam in her thing leads her to help you in your thing in an important way that leads all the way to one alternative ending. The SQs resolve some important elements of the MQ, River's doesn't do that, and neither Kerry nor Peralez is a main character in the sense that Judy, Panam and Takemura are.
Judy nothing to do with the main quest at all, never. Her side quest, it's only about the Clouds/dolls.
And Panam, yes it is... but you only know that her side quest open a new ending at... the ending... So you don't do her quest for that at the beginning, normally it's simply for help her or make money if you want (if you don't spoil you before playing indeed...).

And Goro, obviously, he doesn't have side quest :D
 
Judy nothing to do with the main quest at the start of her side quest. It's only about the Clouds/dolls.
And Panam, yes it is... but you only know that her side quest open a new ending at... the ending... So you don't do her quest for that at the beginning, normally it's simply for help her or make money if you want (if you don't spoil you before playing indeed...).

And Goro, obviously, he doesn't have side quest :D

Clouds/dolls leads to the Pacifica stuff, remember?
 
Clouds/dolls leads to the Pacifica stuff, remember?
It's main quest ;)

Judy side quests :
(not related at all to the main quest. Unless you consider that changing things in the clouds can save V's life)
Panam side quest :
(who are not related to main quest until she say you that she can help you at the very end, after the point of no return).
But I stop the off-topic here, nothing to add more about that :)
 
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And here's where there was a major disconnect with the the game overall for a lot of players. I can still remember, in many posts, trying to stress that there's no way of making a tabletop game into a CRPG. Different games can come closer, or they can be further away, but a CRPG is not the same thing as a tabletop RPG. Many was the time, since 2015, that I argued people expecting CP2077 to be a 1:1 translation of the Cyberpunk 2020 sourcebook, simply turned into a video game, were going to be disappointed. They're two different mediums.

Here, what we have is the game trying to allow for the same sort of wildly open-ended character creation that would work better with a less narrative design. (But, that would also negate a huge amount of the awesome storytelling that CDPR is noted for.) Defined narratives require defined characters. That includes visualization. If the player character is defined, the visualization options would be best off sticking with that.
Some of the designs from tabletop are in game and player can't not to notice them. Animals, Maelstrom and legs of certain members of Tyger Claws are very obvious. Izzy Wizzy is something player can miss and same goes for Ozob, only Bozo's member we encounter in game. Then there are other individuals whom aren't that obvious, say Caesar, I don't think character customatization has features to make V appearance with similar, very limited cybernetic upgrades, even if they were just cosmetic and background for that would be that they were something that players V did some warehouse work for some corporation for a while and those come from there.

I must say though, what comes to tabletop and what I have gathered from what Didadgomez has posted and some other sources Mike Pondsmith appears to be someone who's always two steps ahead in game design. It appears to support very different kinds of things for very different groups which each may have very different anticipations and goals.
The amount of "disk space" required is going to be the #1 caveat here. Obviously, if I'm going to distribute it, I need to have it hosted on multiple servers. More space = more cost over time. It definitely would impact sales.

Biggest thing aside from that, though, is the time, effort, and expense of making the recordings. It would mean thousands of additional man hours to staff the studio, pay the voice actors, edit the recordings, hand them off to the devs to put into the game itself...

Yeah. That's a lot. All to provide the player a single choice that will result in the vast majority of all that work never being seen in the game.

But it would be cool. :p
While progress on VR is very slow, I think we may someday see features like this, but games like that will be much shorter, at least at first than what we have today. VR needs more than visual aspects to work to make it plausible, more life-like virtual environments become, more things starts to stick out, like characters reflections but voice department will face new demands too or otherwise we end up with just interactive movies.

I don't really like "imagine this..." way of conversation I sometimes see, but regardless something is going to happen in the future of gaming. Something that I have hoped is that CDPR-would make a documentary and not just about people sitting in studios but go to show schools and not only show things that are easily to visualize but also how schools handle topics like virtual spaces and if how they see that is only about games. And people in relevant positions at CDPR could tell how they apply that in their work, what they have pioneered them self and current bottlenecks and how they see future.

Cool design! Not sure if it really captures "V", per say, but there's a prime example of the other side of the argument. People that just don't really care and make things that resonate for them.
While I enjoy reading stuff like how they pick things up like Us Cracks dropping their accent when V meets them with Kerry and spotting how they are artificial construct of music industry, that may not be that different from our industry I also like watching photo mode shots and they often tell their own way how people play they game and have fun.

In racing scene it can sometimes a bit frustrating because customizers and tuners don't always use proper terms and things can get mixed up, but for CP 2077 that is not a problem. All things that has happened it's form of feedback I hope CDPR sees and understands it. It's not only about character but also other work that enables, people capturing certain moment and all that.

Edit: This was way too good example to pass: Hey any of you gonks seen my grenades?
 
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Nevirate said:
the canonized appearance
"Which you can't make In game. You can make a female V that looks similar to E3 Trailer but not a copy(and some people did come close, but no exact copy). "

You might be interested to know that you can get the Female V from the 2018 E3 videos via a mod. She is the exact V from the trailer (all of the original files restored).

I'm not saying this to counter your point, just to let you know you can do it via a Mod if you were interested in her.
 
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