Animal Symbolism

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I agree. My cats (I assume too much saying "my") can discern between good and evil of their actions from the rules of conduct that I have taught them. And, like me, with my parents while they raised me, they have learned from their survival instincts. Remorse is not an exclusive human emotion, but it is an innate fear that our ancestors have used to convey their experiences to their children. Refine from where a being considered intelligent or not is like discussing the existence of a soul or the existence of a divine being. As an agnostic, I can not rule out any option until it is proven. So, yes, a trait of wisdom is knowing when to shut up. Modesty aside, I'll shut up for a while following your good example, @Guy N'wah. ;)
 
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At the risk of reopening this... :)
I would totally disagree that cats, or any other non-human animal, can identify "good" or "evil" in the human meaning of the words. In their relationships with humans, they can learn "punishable", "neutral" and "rewarded", none of which have moral overtones. In their own world, "being a good cat" probably means things like killing small birds on a regular basis, procreating as much as possible and vanquishing the evil toilet roll.
 
Even among different human cultures values change. Forgiveness for example, was NOT in the moral code of the old vikings. There are plenty stories where revenge and retaliation are socially acceptable. Currently, perception of nudity and violence seem to vary somewhat between regions ;)

In the end, we are also very arbitrary and quick to attach our own notion of order or correctness to things that do not necessarily need one. Terrence Deacon suggests we should be called Homo Symbolicus.
 
Even among different human cultures values change. Forgiveness for example, was NOT in the moral code of the old vikings. There are plenty stories where revenge and retaliation are socially acceptable. Currently, perception of nudity and violence seem to vary somewhat between regions ;)

In the end, we are also very arbitrary and quick to attach our own notion of order or correctness to things that do not necessarily need one. Terrence Deacon suggests we should be called Homo Symbolicus.

It was not forgiveness itself, or retaliations, as a concepts, were unknown to them. Basic moral categories stay pretty much the same in every culture, what changes from culture to culture is what events/acts fall under what category. Some cultures find a petty theft forgivable, others - not. Our culture is sure fine with revenge/retaliation, only we codified them and have courts of justice to determine their extend. Also in our social arrangement we have special institutions to provide them, but it is just a way to do things.

Human societies construct a lot of norms/rules/regulations, including the entire ethical, political, and legal systems. Nothing like this exists in any non-human group because in order to create social institutions a fully developed language is necessary.

About animals and morality: I doubt that they either have moral sense (moral realism), or they can be enculturated into human moral system and acquire understanding of moral values. People tend to anthropomorphize things, and interpret behavior of animals on the same model we interpret human behavior, but I don't think it is warranted.
 
Morality is a complex evolution of fear. Morality is a complex evolution of fear. Human beings have moral because they are afraid of the consequences of their acts, like any animal. Human peppered with abstract ideas that fear associated with that act to stimulate that fear or confidence. The borogos have a sense of morality in its hierarchy, but it is not "moral" defining it this way, so it is more acceptable if it is called: innate condition for maintaining a complex animal society with rules of behavior. Or are those dears not based on fear of the moral teachings (heaven-hell, reward-punishment) from human children?

oops! I'm not yet so wisdom....
 
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Morality is a complex evolution of fear. Morality is a complex evolution of fear. Human beings have moral because they are afraid of the consequences of their acts, like any animal.

Such view can have very bad consequences. Nazi ideologists had such view on society which basically results in monstrous inhumane cruelty. I.e. from their perspective there is no moral norm. There are only limitations of practical fear / convenience.
 
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Some people are moral realists and believe that there are objective moral facts. In this case the system of morality emerges when a moral sense of humans developed enough, and they could discern moral facts. It is something I am skeptical about. I would say that a system of morality arises the way Hobbes argued about the state. As he writes in Leviathan, in the state of nature (imagined human condition before societies with their rules and regulations emerged) where it is a war of all against all, in continual fear, and danger of violent death; the life of man is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. But people could negotiate, form alliances, and establish rules. So they started to do it, and morality emerged as a means to survival - if everyone follows it, it will benefits and raises chances of survival for everyone. So I would say it is a system of rules a society agrees upon.
 
Adapt to live with humans... once you release a "domesticated" cat to wildlife it will survive in a 90% of chances.
But that doesn’t relate to the definition of domesticated, you see? Animals can be domesticated and still be adapted to the wild. The important part is that they are tame and so on, that they won’t flee when near humans and actually are able to live quite closely to them or even in a direct relationship with them.

you'd be surprised at how much (if not everything) of what we do can be reduced to seeking pleasure and survival.
Ah, yes, kinda like we know animals to philosophize. Or to create art. Or to engage in advanced culture in general. Or to perform scientific research :p
 
Ah, yes, kinda like we know animals to philosophize. Or to create art. Or to engage in advanced culture in general. Or to perform scientific research :p

Most of the things we do today are derived from our fundamental cognitive functions that evolved within a context of survival, among other things. For instance, like vivaxardas said, language (as a cognitive capacity) is an impressive advantage: the mental structures required to support it let us share models and explanations of the world and perform activities such as organized tool building, develop complex social structures (like hierarchies from the agricultural revolution) and in general anything involving heterotechnic cooperation. Language also provides extensions for mathematics and music, but you certainly cannot pretend language evolved to let us play music and write poetry.

Once out of Africa and free of natural predators our overpowered cognitive apparatus found unimaginable ways to keep itself busy. But art, philosophy and science are applications of functions that evolved under completely different circumstances.

We don't see other animals doing art because they are on a different cognitive world. But just like us their natural dispositions can be repurposed for other activities. Have you seen dogs trained for finding trapped bodies in collapsed buildings, or searching for drugs and explosives? They certainly didn't evolve to find pot.
 
Humans certainly seem to have developed a need to express their abstract thoughts quite early on if the prevalence of ancient cave drawings is anything to go by. Genesis tells us "In the beginning there was the word", but you can't have a word without first conceiving it and its meaning, and while we may have had the rudiments of a basic communication - similar to animals - at the same time as early cave paintings, complex language appears to have developed later. Prehistoric mans brain certainly overshot its needs by a quantum leap, as my sig used to say, and we don't understand why that curious & apparently unique feature in biology arose. Standing upright also altered our necks & voicebox enabling a greater range of sounds and yet this happened long before complex language.

On Animals, my opinion is they have the intelligence to do what they are specialised for, and animals are more specialised than us, whose greatest ability is adaptation. While primarily driven by instinct, I believe many species are capable of simple - shallower than ours - emotions, unlike us they are never ruled by them, and certainly feel pain, which some people would still insist is rubbish (due to their own inability to accept the reality of nature i.e. death as a part of the lifecycle, and we should respect what we kill when we have to, and not treat them as worthless chattel. We should learn from the Native Americans in this). I feel if we respected the life of animals more, we would unavoidably develop a greater respect for human life.
@Black Leopard; For the Gaels - the Irish Celts at least - the Salmon was a symbol of Wisdom, along with its associated Deep Water Well (Archetype Alert!), and curiously the Hazel tree, worth having a look at.

I'm surprised in so many posts on Wisdom the eminently ugly, troublesome, and cantankerous Socrates hasn't come up. It may seem pithy but when it comes to Wisdom there simply is no other guide than Socs and his paraphrased reply to being told the Oracle had declared him the wisest man: "All I know is that I know nothing", his recognition that there was not one single thing he - or anyone - could understand in its entirety, except his own ignorance. See anyone get their head surrounding that entirely and you notice the difference alright, it is the key to the door of personal wisdom. Room for doubt, embrace uncertainty, that's Wisdom, however it arises... whether innate, or through experience, it breeds tolerance and empathy.

For Practical Wisdom, everyone should take 20 minutes with their favourite hot beverage and check out this TED talk:

[video=youtube;lA-zdh_bQBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA-zdh_bQBo[/video]

As for Enlightenment... its a process for me, not a state. I don't know if this is the East - West cultural discrepancy, but I sometimes feel "Nirvana" has been confused with "Paradise", and "Enlightenment" has replaced Nirvana. But "The Enlightenment" in the West was driven more by Reason & Logic than Wisdom. It was a word of its time very much felt to signify a grand illumination across humanity, and all its spheres & endeavours. Rampant Enquiry bringing the light of knowledge to chase away the dark of the ages. Its even usual to preface with Spiritual or Musical or whatever -enlightenment, to specify where exactly there's sparks. Even if in it's state form there's something transitory about it, like a potential energy, ready to change again.

But then, I favour the whole Lightbringer motif, and it is connected to Wisdom of course - knowing you don't know it all leaves room for acquiring more knowledge - just as in the words of the great Renaissance Poet Leonard O' Cohen (see my next post in the now playing music thread):

There's a Crack... a Crack in Everything... that's how the Light gets in

Which now makes me think of Brain Talbots intriguing attempt at a Theory of Everything - The Holographic Universe.

There was a brief tangent on this thread about what we receive genetically, and I have a particularly curious experience to tell in this sphere, one which I do not know what to make of myself. My Great*4 Grandfather on my mothers side played an admirable role in local history such that an autobiography was written that has become one of the chief sources for historians investigating those times. The editor provides a description of the man and when my friends read it they say "that's you, that is", and humbly & mystifyingly they are mostly correct, the greatest difference being I have an extra few inches of height. Even though our situations - separated by 200 years - are quite different in most respects. It is odd, and keeps my mind open to the various theories of genetic memory that sporadically arise (and are shot down, due to that old how the hell do you quantify it problem).

Still, there are many mysteries of existence out there, and sure isn't it the wise thing to do to keep an open mind, perfectly safe when you avoid belief.
 
We don't see other animals doing art because they are on a different cognitive world.
But that is all I wanted to demonstrate with my comment :) The question was whether everything we humans do can be reduced to survival/seeking pleasure or not. That the activities I listed may have evolved from traits acquired through the pursuit of survival/seeking pleasure is irrelevant to that question :p
 
But that is all I wanted to demonstrate with my comment :) The question was whether everything we humans do can be reduced to survival/seeking pleasure or not. That the activities I listed may have evolved from traits acquired through the pursuit of survival/seeking pleasure is irrelevant to that question :p

Yep, it is right, as I see it. For example I can agree that our hands evolved as means of survival, but it does not mean that everything we do with them is only and exclusively for survival. People kill themselves with their hands, as any suicide is a clear example. Wouldn't make this kind of use conducive to survival, would it?

How we came to be historically becomes pretty much irrelevant as soon as people developed self-consciousness, and became able to overcome their basic instincts. Hordes of people go and die for some stupid (or noble) ideas every day for thousands of years, which has neither pleasure nor survival value. I actually nowadays find people to be more self-destructive and prone to self-made misery and suffering, and all of it because they have minds that are not in the right order.
 
1 Owls - reason why i like the owls ? . hmm well.... is looks like philippa eilhart ( well just kidding :p ) .
am very like owls symbolism because their are very independent & the most mystery animal in our world .
( is just my opinion well is have something in a common like a cat ,i think ) ,and the owl is a symbol of "vigilance, acute wit , wisdom, patience. and has been associated with spirits ". It is a guide in the underworld but an effective hunter and The owl can help to reveal those who would take advantage of another or deceive others

2 Cats - are a power Animal ( in my opinion ) , Cats are a, Symbol of "Wholeness, Independence, Curiosity, Many Lives, Cleverness, Love, Mystery, Magic ." and the cat are associated with death, probably because they are nocturnes. Some believe that cats may be able to see signs of death. the cat also represents the guardian of the Underworld and that kind of that stuff

3 Lion - am very respect this one is well know is a symbol of " deathless courage, strength, fearlessness, bravery, strength and royalty".the lion is compared to the Eagle which is supreme in the air. Lion is not only seen as a leader on earth but also in the spiritual realms. The lion has speed, is alert and has power, this represents all that is majestic. Just like the eagle

( and i like this ( lion ) symbol because is one of the most positive here i think & how can i miss this one . is also my birth sign in astrology . )
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were i have a time,were i boring or something i really love to reading this stuff ,...

"Animal Symbolism in Many Cultures "
http://www.incredibleart.org/lessons/middle/animals2.htm

"Celtic Animals and Their Meanings"
http://www.whats-your-sign.com/Celtic-animals.html

and"Mythical Creatures Past and Present"
http://209.240.155.221/animals-mythical.html
 
The answer is obvious: Black leopard :)

But there are also another candidates: wisdom - owl, dolphin, octopus, pig (seriously), dog
1st question is more difficult - speed: gepard, falcon, horse, diarrhoea,..
- versatile: not easy to say - maybe mouse, chameleon
 
Elephants belong in there somewhere. I don't think we will ever know whether or how much elephants are wise by our standard, because we share neither language nor experience. But Scientific American: Elephants are even smarter than we realized; New York Times: Elephants give a helping trunk

 
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This cat IS widsom making his owner shut up!!! And they call him "silly"!

 
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