ANIMALS shouldn't or be less hackable? - lore

[jshylkema]

So I found this shard called Interview with a Queen of the Metrojungle

Interviewer: (nervous laughter) Yes, well... (clears throat) Is it true you reject the use of cybernetics? Anon Animal: Yes and no. Coprocessors can be hacked, so we steer clear of those. But retractable blades, metal claws, titanium jaws, leopard-print techleather - that's another story.

But I can still quickhack Animals any way I like even though, according to the shard, the Animals avoid hackable Cyberware. Shouldn't Animals, from a lore perspective, be less hackable? This would also make them more of a challenge if you run a netrunner build

 

[Tarille]

This would make them more of a challenge if you run a netrunner build

I think this is the crux of why it's not the case.

One of the design goals was seemingly to allow players to play how they want. Selecting a build that suits the playstyle they want and rolling with it.

Lore accurate Animals would completely nullify the pure Quickhack focused builds, forcing gun/melee usage to deal with this entire faction of enemies.

With such a weakness not present for any other build type (Keep in mind, there's also the Tyger Claws that have their tattoo's that make Smart weapons less effective against them, further harming INT builds, with again no similar drawback to other builds) it would feel like the game is punishing you for picking that specific style of gameplay, which would be exacerbated by the fact that Quickhacking is the method of combat unique to this game so people wanting to try out this new style of combat getting punished and forced to engage in less exciting standard gun/melee play would give a negative experience.

If the game was focused more on adapting your gameplay, with focus on hybrid builds where you are capable at netrunning, gunplay and melee then I could see this sort of interaction being used, with also enemies that equally resist guns and melee. But as it stands the game likes you to hyperspecialize (Most notably when picking a processor where you give up quickhacking entirely to grab Sandy or Berserk) especially in the early-mid game where you've only maxed out one stat.

Mayhaps in future titles their game design might err closer to that, providing more well rounded character builds that can allow them to utilize these polarizing enemy designs to create more interesting and diverse combat engagements.

 

[Netrunner2go]

hmm according to the wiki they just avoid traditional cyberware but not cyberware at all...

(...) They avoid traditional cyberware so they enhance themselves with melee combat-enhancing implants and by using ultra-testosterone, animal supplements, and a steroid-like drug known as "the Juice" which increases the user's strength and speed but cause risk problems.

(...) Their members are known to abstain from the most common electronic implants in favor of custom-brewed body enhancements and modifications.

(...) cybernetic modifications like bestial jaws, and vat-grown implanted muscles. Cyberware used by the gang include pain editors, combat drug injectors, augmented cyberlimbs.

...so still a lot stuff to hack or overheat left in general...

 

[jshylkema]

hmm according to the wiki they just avoid traditional cyberware but not cyberware at all... so still stuff to hack or overheat in general...

Yeah that's why less hackable might be an option as well, in the sense that not all quickhacks can be performed on them?

I think this is the crux of why it's not the case.

One of the design goals was seemingly to allow players to play how they want. Selecting a build that suits the playstyle they want and rolling with it.

Lore accurate Animals would completely nullify the pure Quickhack focused builds, forcing gun/melee usage to deal with this entire faction of enemies.

With such a weakness not present for any other build type (Keep in mind, there's also the Tyger Claws that have their tattoo's that make Smart weapons less effective against them, further harming INT builds, with again no similar drawback to other builds) it would feel like the game is punishing you for picking that specific style of gameplay, which would be exacerbated by the fact that Quickhacking is the method of combat unique to this game so people wanting to try out this new style of combat getting punished and forced to engage in less exciting standard gun/melee play would give a negative experience.

If the game was focused more on adapting your gameplay, with focus on hybrid builds where you are capable at netrunning, gunplay and melee then I could see this sort of interaction being used, with also enemies that equally resist guns and melee. But as it stands the game likes you to hyperspecialize (Most notably when picking a processor where you give up quickhacking entirely to grab Sandy or Berserk) especially in the early-mid game where you've only maxed out one stat.

Mayhaps in future titles their game design might err closer to that, providing more well rounded character builds that can allow them to utilize these polarizing enemy designs to create more interesting and diverse combat engagements.

That is understandable, it would introduce more balancing issues. It might just be a matter of personal taste but I like the idea of certain builds having pros and cons, with certain enemies being able to counter your chosen build to some extent.

I have so far only played the netrunner build with an emphasis on monowire since it is my first playthrough but it is pretty OP (not that I mind), so there is definitely room for some extra challenge without buffing the enemies

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yeah that's why less hackable might be an option as well, in the sense that not all quickhacks can be performed on them?

I could be wrong, the it could be rather the opposite
Unlike VDBs (Voodoo Boys) which use high-tech cyberwares so less vulnerable to QH and so, which offer a QH resistance (if I remember), Animals tend to only use cyberwares with the main purpose to improve strengh and melee fight abilities, but cyberwares which seem to be easier to hack and vunlnerable to QH.

So VDBs, in theory should be the most difficult to hack (and defeat with QH), outside of people who don't have any cyberware

 

[Tarille]

hmm according to the wiki they just avoid traditional cyberware but not cyberware at all...

I'm actually curious as to the extent at which people just naturally have cyberware in the setting.

What piqued my interest in this is that set of missions with the Monk where you do some Zen Meditation BD's. As it's established that the Monks in the game reject cyberware as part of their faith. Yet the Monk who guides you through the BD's can be paid and when doing so his eyes will glow as the transaction goes through.

Implying that he has some sort of eye modification linked to a processor of some kind that can handle funds and provide feedback of transactions.

Could be that people get given a processor at birth or something because it seems like a dystopian future thing to do (Replace schools with instructional chips, get basic interface capabilities with a variety of modern ameneties etc)

Which could still allow for hacking even if they're not running a full on deck in their brain.

It might just be a matter of personal taste but I like the idea of certain builds having pros and cons, with certain enemies being able to counter your chosen build to some extent.

Same here. Well, provided it's done in an interesting way. Hence I'm hoping that Project Orion (The next Cyberpunk title) revamps the leveling/skills systems to something more dynamic.

I have so far only played the netrunner build with an emphasis on monowire since it is my first playthrough but it is pretty OP (not that I mind), so there is definitely room for some extra challenge without buffing the enemies

To be fair, every build is OP especially later in the game.

Adding hack resistance won't do much to add "Challenge" it's not like guns are weak even without any skills for them. The main concern is how it simply nullifies an entire playstyle. There are a number of people who specifically play full on netrunner, using no weapons at all and just quickhacking every thing to death. They probably wouldn't be pleased if they suddenly faced a wall where that playstyle literally couldn't be used at all, even more so when literally every other build in the game can work just fine against any bit of content the game has to offer and it's ONLY this pure hack build that gets screwed over by Animals.

 

[Netrunner2go]

I could be wrong, the it could be rather the opposite
Unlike VDBs (Voodoo Boys) which use high-tech cyberwares so less vulnerable to QH and so, which offer a QH resistance (if I remember), Animals tend to only use cyberwares with the main purpose to improve strengh and melee fight abilities, but cyberwares which seem to be easier to hack and vunlnerable to QH.

So VDBs, in theory should be the most difficult to hack (and defeat with QH), outside of people who don't have any cyberware

in a way its already ingame most VDBs need higher RAM costs to get QHs applied especially their Netrunner need a freaking high amount sometimes... and i like it the way it is - its kinda immersive jo

If Animals should get a kind of resistance it should be melee combat rather than hacking... like Razor who doesnt give a f*ck about punches lorewise (sadly not gamewise) that would make much more sense to me than beeing unhackable...

 

[DerHoss]

Honestly, its one of the reasons I never made a real netrunner build in this game. It just doesnt feel right, the whole quikhacking thing makes no sense lorewise.

In the lore of Cyberpunk a Netrunner typically sits in his Netrunner chair, you can find these everywhere in the game. From there he hacks into the net. Rarely he plug in directly, still with a cable, but accesses directly a subnet. That greatly reduces his capabilities since he missed that chair (the cooling mostly, his brain will overheat quickly). And he also uses a deck, a halfway portable computer.
In the sourcebook there is a rule for 'cellular decks' using mobile data. They have a 25% chance to randomly disconnect you when you loose reception.
But something like that would require the game to have a seperate Netrunning gameplay. So instead we have quickhacking.
Somehow we can hack into everyone, since apparently everyone has unsecured wifi... in his body. But it only works on sight... unless I know where the target is, than it works out of sight as well.
And somehow we can use all these quickhacks on all targets, irrespective from the actual cyberware that the target has. I can use cripple movement on targets with ganic legs, reboot optics on targets with ganic eyes. I can use detonate grenade on anyone, cause anyone somehow carries handgrenades with them all the time.
You would really think by now someone would have thought of a simple, manual switch to disable that implant-wifi...

 

[jshylkema]

Honestly, its one of the reasons I never made a real netrunner build in this game. It just doesnt feel right, the whole quikhacking thing makes no sense lorewise.

In the lore of Cyberpunk a Netrunner typically sits in his Netrunner chair, you can find these everywhere in the game. From there he hacks into the net. Rarely he plug in directly, still with a cable, but accesses directly a subnet. That greatly reduces his capabilities since he missed that chair (the cooling mostly, his brain will overheat quickly). And he also uses a deck, a halfway portable computer.
In the sourcebook there is a rule for 'cellular decks' using mobile data. They have a 25% chance to randomly disconnect you when you loose reception.
But something like that would require the game to have a seperate Netrunning gameplay. So instead we have quickhacking.
Somehow we can hack into everyone, since apparently everyone has unsecured wifi... in his body. But it only works on sight... unless I know where the target is, than it works out of sight as well.
And somehow we can use all these quickhacks on all targets, irrespective from the actual cyberware that the target has. I can use cripple movement on targets with ganic legs, reboot optics on targets with ganic eyes. I can use detonate grenade on anyone, cause anyone somehow carries handgrenades with them all the time.
You would really think by now someone would have thought of a simple, manual switch to disable that implant-wifi...

I mean CDPR has to bend the rules a bit with regard to the lore, otherwise the game might not be considered ''fun to play'' since video games are a different format than a tabletop rpg.

I do hope, in the sequel, that netrunning will take into account the different types of cyberware and equipment to add more depth to the gameplay and how engage different types of enemies. While still retaining a balance between what's fun and what makes sense lorewise

Interesting to read how netrunning works in the lore btw

 

[ShinAkira00]

I think in this world everyone has basic cyberware so they can connect. Even making a phone call seems to be part of that integration. That connection alone would mean you can be hacked. I don't know how they would limit that.

Besides that, there are already certain enemies who can't be hacked or specific hacks don't work on them. I think that system allows more freedom rather than restricting it to one gang.

 

[Nixilos]

Imagine if hacking was cyberware specific to enemies and presented options similar to the appliances and chooh2 containers scattered around the world.

Imagine if the game had an 'overheat' mechanic meaning heavy cyberware use could damage your health or even cause cyberware malfunctions.

Also imagine if you actually had to physically breach a network either by access point or by stealth takedown of an enemy to activate most of your quickhacks.

Imagine if enemies actually had self-ICE too and not just the player, meaning there was a chance your hacks could fail on certain targets.

Imagine how much more engaging it could have been than just spamming "Magic" from the final fantasy menu.

Imagine.

 

[akaddk]

In the lore of Cyberpunk a Netrunner typically sits in his Netrunner chair, you can find these everywhere in the game. From there he hacks into the net. Rarely he plug in directly, still with a cable, but accesses directly a subnet. That greatly reduces his capabilities since he missed that chair (the cooling mostly, his brain will overheat quickly). And he also uses a deck, a halfway portable computer.
In the sourcebook there is a rule for 'cellular decks' using mobile data. They have a 25% chance to randomly disconnect you when you loose reception.

Isn't this meant to be 50 years in the 'future' from that core setting though?

It's been so long since I've opened my GURPS sourcebook. I should go do that. It's a treasured possession I got when the book first hit the shelves. Shame I hardly ever got to play it 'cause GURPS was so... GURPS'y.

 

[hankjw01]

"this isnt lore friendly!"
Yeah, so what?
Its a video game first, and a story second. Why are so many people getting butthurt over something not being lore accurate? Especially when its a detail this minor? Its like lore accuracy is the be all and end all for a good story, when in reality people are being nitpicky or butthurt over details that dont matter.
When will people understand that the stories we play and watch have to follow the rules and conventions of story telling in that medium, and ONLY AFTER THAT comes lore accurarcy, plot and so on?

 

[Netrunner2go]

When will people understand that the stories we play and watch have to follow the rules and conventions of story telling in that medium, and ONLY AFTER THAT comes lore accurarcy, plot and so on?

this is your point of view and nothing to generalize like "when will people understand xyz" - another view could be that telling a story would feel way better and immersiv if it fits the lore more accuarte than excusing changes because of "the medium" - especially if the medium isnt a reason at all? what does this even mean "rules and conventions" in a video game? tell me just one rule or convention why games shouldnt be accurate to source material? your call doesnt make sense at all.

 

[hankjw01]

this is your point of view and nothing to generalize like "when will people understand xyz" - another view could be that telling a story would feel way better and immersiv if it fits the lore more accuarte than excusing changes because of "the medium" - especially if the medium isnt a reason at all? what does this even mean "rules and conventions" in a video game? tell me just one rule or convention why games shouldnt be accurate to source material? your call doesnt make sense at all.

You not understanding what I mean doesnt mean it doesnt make sense.
Okay, Ill explain it in another way: A game has to work first as a game, it has to be balanced, and only then you can think about things like lore accuracy. What good is a lore accurate depiction of something if that depiction breaks a game?
The stories we tell follow structures. You cant just randomly talk about something and then expect it to be consistent story. Thats why often in movies or TV shows things happen that wouldnt happen in real life, because its a movie/show that needs to move on with its plot. Logical inaccuracies that happen because of that is the price that is necessary in order for a story to work.
The same goes for video games, like mentioned in posts, one of the main points of the game is not forcing you into a certain playstyle.
Having lore accurate Animals that cant be fought with quickhacks would make netrunner builds inferior to combat builds. Its simple, and it perfectly explains why it is the way it is.
I dont understand why you would bother discussing whether something is lore accurate or not, when in reality that thing is simply the way it is because of game design reasons.
Yes, you could have lore accurate netrunning where you would sit in a chair all day. Is that compelling gameplay? Maybe to you.
But CP2077 is an action game first, aiming towards a balanced playstyle that isnt restrictive. That simply doesnt work with restrictive, more lore accurate things.
If you want lore accuracy, play the tabletop game, read the books.
Especially @DerHoss is missing the point here so damn hard. Brother, just enjoy the damn game instead of going out of your way in poking holes into things. You sound like the type of guy who watches an action movie and then complain that the baddie with his 9mm pistol fired 18 rounds, even though his handgun has only 15 rounds in reality.

All this talk about some game design choices not being lore accurate looks from the outside like people who cant handle that things "arent the way they should be". Video games and their source material are DIFFERENT mediums. There is no written law that states adaptations must be as lore accurate as possible. Because that simply doesnt work, because you cant translate the things that make one medium work flawlessly into another medium and expect it to work.
All you people get so hung up in theoretical constructs about lore accuracy that you forget the things I mentioned above: Sometimes video games are the way they are because they have to follow certain rules in order to be a good game. Lore accuracy and in-universe-logic cannot be the first priority in video games or even the second.

 

[Netrunner2go]

Dude Animals not beeing hackable isn’t even lore lol - so what’s your wall of text all about? It was a suggestion/question made by a player. Also NOBODY said IT MUST BE LORE just that it would feel better if it would be more accurate. Hence talking about people who don’t understand or can’t handle xyz - is only brought up by you and you only lol… you totally missed the point of this whole thread and are obviously the only one who don’t understand, brother.

 

[jshylkema]

"this isnt lore friendly!"
Yeah, so what?
Its a video game first, and a story second. Why are so many people getting butthurt over something not being lore accurate? Especially when its a detail this minor? Its like lore accuracy is the be all and end all for a good story, when in reality people are being nitpicky or butthurt over details that dont matter.
When will people understand that the stories we play and watch have to follow the rules and conventions of story telling in that medium, and ONLY AFTER THAT comes lore accurarcy, plot and so on?

lol chill out

Was only spitballing/throwing around ideas. And yes, more variation in how you engage enemies with quickhacks would imo be more fun, it just so happened I found a shard that got me thinking. I never said it must be in line with lore, that's what you made out of it. I even stated that I understand they have to change certain aspects of the setting to adjust it to the new medium/format. Maybe next time read more carefully and not rush to conclusions, or even better: you could not get mad over nothing?

You not understanding what I mean doesnt mean it doesnt make sense.

Also, the way your formulate your opinion makes you sound pretentious and arrogant

 

[Nixilos]

Having lore accurate Animals that cant be fought with quickhacks would make netrunner builds inferior to combat builds. Its simple, and it perfectly explains why it is the way it is.

Wanted to zero in on this particular point. How is that different from encountering enemies that can activate their own sandevistans to keep up with you now? Shouldn't there be matchup based pros and cons to keep the different build choices feeling like distinct experiences?

I don't think immunity to quick hacks would even be appropriate for the animals, but resistance or limited immunity to specific hacks might make things more interesting. I'm in the camp that thinks Tyger Claws should still resist target lock from smart weapons too. Flattening the utility of all options against all factions makes things kind of bland imo.

Hacking needs actual downsides for the level of power it gives you, unless it was really meant to just be low effort godmode. I mean it's fine if that was the intention, i know people who exclusively play minecraft on creative mode and use cheats in all their single player games too. We just enjoy different things.