Do you actually like CP77 being shorter then Witcher3 ?

[Mybrokenenglish]

"Develloper choice"

RDR2 :
Hunt the Bear with Hosea > Main quest
Fishing with John > Main quest
Find Swanson and play poker > Main quest
Hunt buffalo with Charles > Main quest
Fishing in a boat with Hosea and Dutch > Main quest

Cyberpunk :
Rogue quest line > Side quests
Kerry quest line > Side quests
Judy/Panam/River quest lines > Side quests

So I can agree, RDR2 is longer if you consider only the main quest, because, RockStar decide to include most of the quests in main quest line
But anyway in the end, for me, I don't really care... it doesn't change much since I finish the game with almost the same playing times (maybe a bit more on Cyberpunk... Sandbox activities and challenges are not my thing).

No, it's longer even if you consider the side quests. Check it out on how long to beat. How long it takes to the individual player to beat the game is a different thing. That being said, it's not a matter of hour counts, is the fact that in rdr2 every mission is there to make you connect with the PC and the NPCs. That's what I personally liked and that's why I cared about all of them. I'm sure some people are in love with Jackie after those 2 hours of "screen time". Or they really cared about Evelyn and t-bug. That didn't happen to me with cp77, I need more time.

P.S. buffalo hunting was definitely not a compulsory mission, so no main quest. Same for Arthur's ex or the downes.

 

[CTPhipps]

No, it's longer even if you consider the side quests. Check it out on how long to beat. How long it takes to the individual player to beat the game is a different thing. That being said, it's not a matter of hour counts, is the fact that in rdr2 every mission is there to make you connect with the PC and the NPCs. That's what I personally liked and that's why I cared about all of them. I'm sure some people are in love with Jackie after those 2 hours of "screen time". Or they really cared about Evelyn and t-bug. That didn't happen to me with cp77, I need more time.

P.S. buffalo hunting was definitely not a compulsory mission, so no main quest. Same for Arthur's ex or the downes.

There were plenty of Stranger missions. It just had the oddity you could do them as John or Jack.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

In cp77, I couldn't care less of any character, including V.

That didn't happen to me with cp77, I need more time.

I don't think more "time" and more "quests" could change anything, in this case
If you don't care about Cyberpunk's characters, it's not a "longer" main story, more side quests or more whatever, who could change that

Post automatically merged: Jul 29, 2021

The difference between the characters in RDR2 and Cyberpunk's, is that :
In RDR2, Arthur has been in the gang since he was a child. So they're all or almost long-time friends. it allows to have a certain "complicity" from the start.
Whereas in Cyberpunk it's more of a lone set of characters in a big city where the national sport is betrayal. Judy is alone, Panam is alone, River is alone, Kerry is "rather" alone and V finds himself alone... With that fact, it seems difficult to be directly the best friends in the world from the start (moreover it is felt in every first conversation)

 

[Restlessdingo32]

If their goal really was to write the story for mass appeal and pandering to the lowest common denominator, then they chose the worst possible plot for that.

I said the game was made for mass appeal. Not necessarily the story. Try and fit so much into a neat little package and odds are high any given area can end up watered down, shorter or streamlined in some way. To remove all ambiguity, I'm saying they overreached in the name of maximizing the customer base as much as possible. It's not a leap to think that might have something to do with the very short main quest.

Being short isn't the problem. Awkward jumps in the pacing are. Jackie dies way too early. Corp V conveniently gets all of his tech removed in one scene, negating any of the office intrigue in the intro. All the intros jump right into the street path after 40 minutes. It all feels like content was cut, whether that really happened or not.

I think the reason for this is the setup of the story, to me, was inconsistent with it's focus.

All events prior to waking up in your apartment and having a proper introduction to Johnny are revolve around making it to the big leagues, the nature of the Edgerunner/merc life, fame, glory, wealth, legacy (immortality), deception and betrayal. The second part of the game revolved around survival. Even though elements of each have a place throughout the game the focus experiences a radical shift.

This presents obvious problems. Since that second part needs to enter the picture the first ends up with odd pacing and feeling rushed. The connection between becoming a merc and establishing contact with Dex ends up as that single mission and montage. Right as you're getting to know and establish a bond with Jackie he draws the short straw. The very first big job V gets ends in complete disaster.

I think this type of stuff, a convenient excuse to shorten the game to lower costs and the aforementioned mass appeal is why the MQ was made shorter. To improve the player experience or because feedback is held in such regard? I believe that about as much as ready when it's ready, a commitment to quality, surprisingly well and the perspective being locked to FPP for immersion.

 

[CTPhipps]

All the intros jump right into the street path after 40 minutes.

This is something that is clearly the problem of CDPR because it shows a complete lack of set up and knowledge of the setting. The assumption here is that Edgerunners is a "Street" Path when it IS the tabletop (and video) game. Everyone is an Edgerunner and is the highest thing to aspire to in the setting.

But many players come and say, "I keep getting forced to be a Street Kid!"

As if there is some sort of thing other to be in the setting.

It's like playing Dungeons and Dragons and going, "Man, why does this game keep wanting me to be an adventurer!?"

Clearly, CDPR needed to lead V more into this.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

I don't think more "time" and more "quests" could change anything, in this case
If you don't care about Cyberpunk's characters, it's not a "longer" main story, more side quests or more whatever, who could change that

Post automatically merged: Jul 29, 2021

The difference between the characters in RDR2 and Cyberpunk's, is that :
In RDR2, Arthur has been in the gang since he was a child. So they're all or almost long-time friends. it allows to have a certain "complicity" from the start.
Whereas in Cyberpunk it's more of a lone set of characters in a big city where the national sport is betrayal. Judy is alone, Panam is alone, River is alone, Kerry is "rather" alone and V finds himself alone... With that fact, it seems difficult to be directly the best friends in the world from the start (moreover it is felt in every first conversation)

Naaaaah, I know myself. I'm pretty sure that more time with cp77 characters, more relationship building, would have made me connect with them. The poor Evelyn had to go through all of that? Like I care, I talked with her once, she's literally a stranger... Jackie dies? He's V's best friend? Good, not mine, I barely know him.
And all those people desperate because V died... After knowing him for what? 4 hours of game? 1 fictional week?

Post automatically merged: Jul 30, 2021

I think the reason for this is the setup of the story, to me, was inconsistent with it's focus.

All events prior to waking up in your apartment and having a proper introduction to Johnny are revolve around making it to the big leagues, the nature of the Edgerunner/merc life, fame, glory, wealth, legacy (immortality), deception and betrayal. The second part of the game revolved around survival. Even though elements of each have a place throughout the game the focus experiences a radical shift.

This presents obvious problems. Since that second part needs to enter the picture the first ends up with odd pacing and feeling rushed. The connection between becoming a merc and establishing contact with Dex ends up as that single mission and montage. Right as you're getting to know and establish a bond with Jackie he draws the short straw. The very first big job V gets ends in complete disaster.

I think this type of stuff, a convenient excuse to shorten the game to lower costs and the aforementioned mass appeal is why the MQ was made shorter.

Totally agree on this

 

[Guest 3847602]

I said the game was made for mass appeal. Not necessarily the story. Try and fit so much into a neat little package and odds are high any given area can end up watered down, shorter or streamlined in some way. To remove all ambiguity, I'm saying they overreached in the name of maximizing the customer base as much as possible. It's not a leap to think that might have something to do with the very short main quest.

Of course, the game was made for mass appeal, not trying to dispute that. I just don't think the main story's length has anything to do wit it. In general, AAA companies love to brag about the size of their game's world, length of the main campaign, how much stuff there is to do in their game, etc... What I'm trying to say is: had CDPR really wanted to design this aspect for the masses, we would have gotten 50 hour main story full of unnecessary filler content, to give people the illusion of getting greater value for money.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

The poor Evelyn had to go through all of that? Like I care, I talked with her once, she's literally a stranger... Jackie dies? He's V's best friend? Good, not mine, I barely know him.

For Evy, it's intentional, like you says, V don't know her at all. The only reason (for me), V could be sad about her death, it's because Judy (some sort of empathy). It's a bit like Scorpion for Panam, you don't know him, but he participate to the build of Panam's character.
And for Jackie, yes, but you have to imagine that he's important for V. In my opinion, if you play with Jackie like 20 hours more, that's does really add a "real capital gain" to the story (Except maybe even more disappointment for those who wanted to save him).

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Of course, the game was made for mass appeal, not trying to dispute that. I just don't think the main story's length has anything to do wit it.

Fair enough.

What I'm trying to say is: had CDPR really wanted to design this aspect for the masses, we would have gotten 50 hour main story full of unnecessary filler content, to give people the illusion of getting greater value for money.

Unnecessary filler content.... Perhaps the differing perspectives is due to the way the MQ was received. To me most of the MQ was unnecessary filler content. So instead of a 50 hour MQ with 30 hours of filler I got a 20 hour MQ with 18 hours of filler content. Thanks I guess?

 

[CTPhipps]

For Evy, it's intentional, like you says, V don't know her at all. The only reason (for me), V could be sad about her death, it's because Judy (some sort of empathy). It's a bit like Scorpion for Panam, you don't know him, but he participate to the build of Panam's character.
And for Jackie, yes, but you have to imagine that he's important for V. In my opinion, if you play with Jackie like 20 hours more, that's does really add a "real capital gain" to the story (Except maybe even more disappointment for those who wanted to save him).

Evelyn's death was the focus of my V's RPG from beginning to end. What might have been and more. Like a private eye and the client who dies, he's driven by this massive failure.

 

[Guest 3847602]

Unnecessary filler content.... Perhaps the differing perspectives is due to the way the MQ was received. To me most of the MQ was unnecessary filler content. So instead of a 50 hour MQ with 30 hours of filler I got a 20 hour MQ with 18 hours of filler content. Thanks I guess?

Now I'm curious...
What would those 2 hours of non-filler content be? Beginning? End? M'ap Tann Pelen and I Walk the Line?

In any case, if this is not an exaggeration and you really consider 90% of the main quest to be a filler, then maybe the problem lies in main story's premise, not its length? I simply don't see how would stretching 18 hours of boredom to 36 improve anyone's opinion of the game.

 

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, I feel like that is just an elaborate way of saying, "I hate the story."

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

but you have to imagine that he's important for V.

Yeah, that's not how it works for me. I've always thought that if a developer relies on my imagination to justify things that happen in the game, it's their failure, they should have designed the game in a different way. Clearly not saying that's the rule, just my perspective.
It's the same with from software games. I do love the "puzzle-like" story, but I hate when they (intentionally?) leave plot holes you need to fill with your imagination.

 

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, that's not how it works for me. I've always thought that if a developer relies on my imagination to justify things that happen in the game, it's their failure, they should have designed the game in a different way. Clearly not saying that's the rule, just my perspective.
It's the same with from software games. I do love the "puzzle-like" story, but I hate when they (intentionally?) leave plot holes you need to fill with your imagination.

How long would it take for you to bond with Jackie out of curiosity?

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yeah, that's not how it works for me. I've always thought that if a developer relies on my imagination to justify things that happen in the game, it's their failure, they should have designed the game in a different way. Clearly not saying that's the rule, just my perspective.
It's the same with from software games. I do love the "puzzle-like" story, but I hate when they (intentionally?) leave plot holes you need to fill with your imagination.

So I imagine that in TW3 (if you hadn't played the previous ones, which must have been the case for some players), it must have been quite surprising, to start with Geralt naked in a bathtub next to a unknown (Yen) also naked.
Also a mistake by CDPR ?
Or maybe you have to "imagine" that Geralt already knew her before this scene ?
I also imagine in Fallout 4, when your wife/husband is kill and your son is kidnaped, it's not "important", seen you have only play with them few minutes before

 

[CTPhipps]

So I imagine that in TW3 (if you hadn't played the previous ones, which must have been the case for some players), it must have been quite surprising, to start with Geralt naked in a bathtub next to a unknown (Yen) also naked.
Also a mistake by CDPR ?
Or maybe you have to "imagine" that Geralt already knew her before this scene ?
I also imagine in Fallout 4, when your wife/husband is kill and your son is kidnaped, it's not "important", seen you have only play with them few minutes before

*coughs* *points to the 3 in the game*

I don't understand all those people who played only Witcher 3 and not at least 2.

Yennefer is also a weird example because people became interested in her because of her lengthy period with Geralt in-game and plenty chose Triss anyway.

She isn't killed in the first Act either.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

*coughs* *points to the 3 in the game*

Yennefer is also a weird example because people became interested in her because of her lengthy period with Geralt in-game and plenty chose Triss anyway.

She isn't killed in the first Act either.

Example, example... you don't wait the Jackie's death for know/imagine, he's the "only" best friend of V (or at least a really good friend).

I don't understand all those people who played only Witcher 3 and not at least 2.

It's not my case, but I'm sure it happened for many players (those who bough TW3 because they have seen that it was a great game...)
In any case, it has happened to me in other games. If I see a new game that looks good, I don't buy all the previous episodes...

 

[Didacgomez]

*coughs* *points to the 3 in the game*

I don't understand all those people who played only Witcher 3 and not at least 2.

Yennefer is also a weird example because people became interested in her because of her lengthy period with Geralt in-game and plenty chose Triss anyway.

She isn't killed in the first Act either.

Top of my head without being sequels: Deus Ex you meet your brother in 1st scene, you are very close but he can die quite fast(depends on one action in a hotel),Deus Ex Human Revolution with Megan Reed that (presumably)dies in the tutorial and you must in theory be deeply impacted by that,GTA III you are betrayed in the intro cutscene by Catalina(i think was her name) without any context and is the major motivation of the whole game to get vengeance....i mean, you probably can cite 1000 videogames that they drop your best friend or worst enemy in the 1st scene without context.

 

[CS554]

I feel that the story works as it is, the only thing I would have personally changed is add a few more branching paths to it and consequences of earlier actions that would intertwine with the side missions.

It would not necessarily make the narrative longer but it would tie everything together, a thing I believe could and should be done through the expansions.

It just feels a bit loose at points and could be tidied up a bit.

I recall one topic months ago that's somewhat related. Something covered there was if Sinnerman ads were still appeared in game world even if V kills them all before production can happen, and it it was actually one of my goals to see if that really is the case during my second playthrough. Unfortunately I'm unable to confirm or deny. At some point all the in-game news and talk shows got stuck and then it was Dr. Paradox starting to appear overlapping that content.

Other thing discussed was "Family Matters" gig outside Regina's cyberpsycho missions, where V however encounters a cyberpsycho and it's sort of odd that V can't contact Regina about that case. V can call but there's no dialogue options available to tell her about Rose. I can sort of see why developers didn't wanted to go there and there's email conversation with Vik that addresses certain things. Yet, whatever goals player may have, there are certain things that are in premise. One thing is that main character name is V and other is that V is a mercenary; why would mercenary, especially in V's situation, totally ignore that there's a possibility to get paid twice for the same job?

Regarding possible player goals in "Family Matters" I don't recall founding but one body in the house and there was email, other people living in that house telling that he felt that situation was out of hands and he is moving to No-Tell Motel. Player goal might be to find that person to tell what's happened, I know so because I tried LOL. Player motive / V's goal for something like this might be just trying to do the right thing, and / or trying to do something Silverhand wouldn't give a damn about, perhaps to redeem him/herself or just to have certain kind of moment, experience of being in control.

It's a gig given by Reyes but and in theory that could give some options but calling Regina or having conversation about it via SMS would IMO be way to go. The most important factors being what makes sense regarding V's background and situation and then player freedom, whatever dialogue options there could be made available possibly taking account different motives players V may have, default IMO should be amoral / mercenary.

This is probably something different than what you have in mind, but I chose this as it was discussed earlier and somebody may remember than and also as example of loose end that was probably not intended, but byproduct of creating quite seamless game world and that could be probably best resolved by additional dialogue, instead of additional stage for mission (V goes to find missing person who appeared in emails).

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

So I imagine that in TW3 (if you hadn't played the previous ones, which must have been the case for some players), it must have been quite surprising, to start with Geralt naked in a bathtub next to a unknown (Yen) also naked.
Also a mistake by CDPR ?
Or maybe you have to "imagine" that Geralt already knew her before this scene ?
I also imagine in Fallout 4, when your wife/husband is kill and your son is kidnaped, it's not "important", seen you have only play with them few minutes before

Nope, I played Witcher 2 and read about Witcher 1. Sequels can afford that, it's the player's fault if they ignore the previous games.

For fallout 4, 100% correct, couldn't care less about son or wife. Also, the narrative is so weak there (and the dialogues FFS) that I didn't like almost anything about it. Cyberpunk does a better job there imho.

Post automatically merged: Jul 30, 2021

How long would it take for you to bond with Jackie out of curiosity?

How am I supposed to know it?
It would really depend on many things, and about the character itself. I may not like it at all, I don't know, his personality is not explored enough in the game for me. Let's say he would have required at least as much as panam. And btw, she gets too much in love with V with the small time they spend together. I tried to live the relationship as a one night stand and after the ending she's desperate because I didn't call her to say goodbye or whatever. And if you do the aldecaldos ending it's even worse with dozens of people ready to die for you.