Finally tried the game (2.1) - if this is what passes as immersive world building, then I am Hideo Kojima

[MQK]

Will not get much into it, but sorely disappointed overall.

The game is beautiful and you can tell an immense amount of work was put in it, but at the same time, it's an oxymoron that, save for the art and level design, no consideration at all was given to building an immersive Cyberpunk world.

Its economy is a gimmick - no connection to the actual lore, and instead of crafting a world where every type of entity has its own characteristics, they instead scale to your level, resulting to a more static, power-wise, and inconsistent experience. Up your game, designers.

Cheers and merry Christmas.

 

[northwold]

Will not get much into it, but sorely disappointed overall.

The game is beautiful and you can tell an immense amount of work was put in it, but at the same time, it's an oxymoron that, save for the art and level design, no consideration at all was given to building an immersive Cyberpunk world.

Its economy is a gimmick - no connection to the actual lore, and instead of crafting a world where every type of entity has its own characteristics, they instead scale to your level, resulting to a more static, power-wise, and inconsistent experience. Up your game, designers.

Cheers and merry Christmas.

It's a narrative game. I'm not sure anyone coming into it expecting a Bethesda style do anything you like experience was ever going to be happy. That's not really what CDPR do (certainly, there's essentially none of that in Witcher 3 other than being able to get a haircut and use a brothel). Horses for courses, really.

 

[MQK]

It's a narrative game. I'm not sure anyone coming into it expecting a Bethesda style do anything you like experience was ever going to be happy. That's not really what CDPR do (certainly, there's essentially none of that in Witcher 3 other than being able to get a haircut and use a brothel). Horses for courses, really.

Off-point. This being a narrative game is a more of a reason to build a narratively consistent world. But this stands for pretty much every kind of game that revolves around a narrative/lore, whether it's Bethesda's or CDPR's games.

 

[tavellone]

It's a narrative game. I'm not sure anyone coming into it expecting a Bethesda style do anything you like experience was ever going to be happy. That's not really what CDPR do (certainly, there's essentially none of that in Witcher 3 other than being able to get a haircut and use a brothel). Horses for courses, really.

Well actually, CDPR were boldly claiming right up until release that this game would be a trend setting RPG like never seen before and really hammering home how interactive and vibrant Night City is in this game, so yeah I was expecting something along those lines when the game came out because we were told it would be like that. It wasn't. It still isn't.

Turning to the OP; yeah I can understand feeling disappointed with this game, even with the three years of improvements it is not the game it claimed to be and it is still a busted game with a backdrop but nothing going on beyond the pretty surface.

However, I have to say I do genuinely love this game despite its massive flaws and absolute lies of what it was claimed to be and what some of the developers act like it actually is now. It's much improved from the release but far from what it was supposed to be.

I hope that the company were shocked enough by their own mess that the next game will avoid a lot of the problems this game has, because the empty world and missing features and badly implemented quests aren't there, in my opinion, due to incompetence because you can see different systems working in the game perfectly fine. Also upon release there were many gameplay systems that were clearly just ripped out at the last minute and replaced with what essentially was a minimally functioning placeholder system. Most of these have been edited or covered up now, but never really changed to a level that they were originally intended to be.

With the exception of the story, art style and music, all of which is great, I wonder if some of my enjoyment of this game isn't what is in the game, but what i imagine could have been.

The best way to play the game in my opinion is on PC, modded up to the eyeballs. Frankly it seems like some modders care more about the game at this point than the developers. Most mods are released in a much better, more stable and less buggy condition than the major updates for this game and add more interesting features, which is astounding given that one is a team of highly skilled developers who are being paid to do this by a multimillion dollar corporation and the other are hobbyists who do it for free and get only donations.

 

[Marcin_Szwaja]

Will not get much into it, but sorely disappointed overall.

The game is beautiful and you can tell an immense amount of work was put in it, but at the same time, it's an oxymoron that, save for the art and level design, no consideration at all was given to building an immersive Cyberpunk world.

Its economy is a gimmick - no connection to the actual lore, and instead of crafting a world where every type of entity has its own characteristics, they instead scale to your level, resulting to a more static, power-wise, and inconsistent experience. Up your game, designers.

Cheers and merry Christmas.

Disappointment is a matter of expectations. Yours were different than game itself? Well, you've had 3 years to check how it looks and works.

 

[Farbros9]

Will not get much into it, but sorely disappointed overall.

The game is beautiful and you can tell an immense amount of work was put in it, but at the same time, it's an oxymoron that, save for the art and level design, no consideration at all was given to building an immersive Cyberpunk world.

Its economy is a gimmick - no connection to the actual lore, and instead of crafting a world where every type of entity has its own characteristics, they instead scale to your level, resulting to a more static, power-wise, and inconsistent experience. Up your game, designers.

Cheers and merry Christmas.

What did you expect in terms of design? Each district has a pretty unique look, unique gangs. What is wrong with immersion there?

As to the progress. You get much stronger, because you stack all kind of buffs and cyberware. At the start you are slow and die really fast, in the end you are immortal and air-dash and slow time non-stop, so the LVL of your opponent plays no role anymore. Whole Max-Tac squad + 20 policemen cant kill me for 10 minutes on very hard.

 

[Tarille]

There are different aspects to worldbuilding.

CP2077 generally fails in the gameplay aspect of worldbuilding. The way you interact with the world, the systems surrounding how you do things, the overall rootin'-tootin'-point-and-shootin' base gameplay are all pretty bland and uninspired and barely delve into the nature of the setting (Given that most of the implants are just "Here's some stats").

However, the backdrop for the game, the setting, the art style (Sans vehicles, I personally think that vehicles look underwhelming compared to the bright neon futuristic aesthetic that the entire rest of the world utilizes - From fashion, cyberware, advertisements, archetechture etc.) are pretty good.

It captures the essence of a hypersexualized dystopia where corporations rule the world and use their vast wealth and power to crank out alarmingly unethical technology. It rides the line between satire at the state of the world we live in and being and over the top caricature instead.

It's not perfect, but it's pretty good for a first foray into the setting (With the added difficulty of being a less utilized setting so there's less material to draw inspiration and take pointers from than say, a medieval fantasy setting such as in Witcher).

There's a few hiccups here and there, such as "Braindance" being the official term for that particular media (Even the the vast majority of your uses of BD's are nothing to do with cheap thrills. Meaning that it's like if the term "Video" didn't exist and we just called everything a "Porno"). Or how most of the problems in the city are dealt with by mercs working for 3rd party fixers rather than anything organized by police, corps or other agencies (You'd think that if Fixers can earn a lot of money from hiring Mercs, corps would look to get a little action too. The entire setting is about corpos controlling everything, yet they're just letting one of the biggest powers in a city go unchecked?)

So yeah. Overall, there's a decent base here. It just needs more refinement, especially in the gameplay aspect. Hopefully Project Orion can manifest these refinements (Ideally, avoiding the development hell that CP2077 went through)

 

[pliskards]

Will not get much into it, but sorely disappointed overall.

The game is beautiful and you can tell an immense amount of work was put in it, but at the same time, it's an oxymoron that, save for the art and level design, no consideration at all was given to building an immersive Cyberpunk world.

Its economy is a gimmick - no connection to the actual lore, and instead of crafting a world where every type of entity has its own characteristics, they instead scale to your level, resulting to a more static, power-wise, and inconsistent experience. Up your game, designers.

Cheers and merry Christmas.

Can you give some examples of games that you think do a good job with world building? I'm genuinely curious and would be interested to dive into them to see if they outdo Cyberpunk in this department.

 

[Farbros9]

Can you give some examples of games that you think do a good job with world building? I'm genuinely curious and would be interested to dive into them to see if they outdo Cyberpunk in this department.

The only game which comes to my mind, which is better at life simulation and is more believable is RDR2. But considering that it has 2x budget of Cyberpunk, it sound pretty reasonable to have 10 animations for dogs playing with each other, or 5 animations for a horse wallowing in the mud.

 

[pliskards]

The only game which comes to my mind, which is better at life simulation and is more believable is RDR2. But considering that it has 2x budget of Cyberpunk, it sound pretty reasonable to have 10 animations for dogs playing with each other, or 5 animations for a horse wallowing in the mud.

I'm curious what the person who started the thread thinks.

I don't even necessarily disagree with the things that they are saying. But I am just curious what games do a great job with immersion if Cyberpunk does not.

 

[MQK]

Can you give some examples of games that you think do a good job with world building? I'm genuinely curious and would be interested to dive into them to see if they outdo Cyberpunk in this department.

Imagine needing an example to understand that to depict a corporate capitalistic dystopia, you need to design an economy consistent with that corporate capitalistic dystopia. Or that a goon becoming more of a health sponge as you level up, doesn't help suspension of disbelief.

 

[pliskards]

Imagine needing an example to understand that to depict a corporate capitalistic dystopia, you need to design an economy consistent with that corporate capitalistic dystopia. Or that a goon becoming more of a health sponge as you level up, doesn't help suspension of disbelief.

... Okay?

 

[LadyMiseryAli]

... Okay?

Sounds like they have no example to give you...curious. I mean, if one makes a claim, one ought to be able to provide examples of games that 'do it better' than the game they are actively shitting on...

 

[pliskards]

Sounds like they have no example to give you...curious. I mean, if one makes a claim, one ought to be able to provide examples of games that 'do it better' than the game they are actively shitting on...

I don't even disagree with the two points he responded with. I agree the economy in the game is out of whack and I'm not a big fan of level scaling. But I find CDPR games to be pretty immersive as far as video games go. I think Night City itself is pretty amazing and they write better characters/stories than most other studios.

So I am genuinely asking him what games he thinks are more immersive. To me all major RPGs/RPG-like games that are immersive have some flaws.

I think Larian makes great games that are immersive, but their games have their own problems.

Bethesda used to make very immersive worlds, even though I think their newer entries are incredbly bad.

I find Rockstar games to be impossibly boring - but I agree with the poster above that RDR2 is super immersive, probably surpassing Cyberpunk/Witcher in a lot of ways. I actually think their games are immersive to their detriment, since they at times can feel like a chore rather than something I am supposed to have fun with.

I thought the two new God of War games really pulled you in - although Ragnarok got a bit Marvel movie/theme park'ish at times.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Or that a goon becoming more of a health sponge as you level up, doesn't help suspension of disbelief.

Just to say, yes along your progression enemies health is increased, but your overall damages are also increased. So at the end, enemies don't become "health sponge" or it's because you still use the very first weapon you get in the game

 

[Boonatron]

Ah the "because I say so" school of philosophy. Why would the gaming market rush over to this theoretical, allegedly superior, economy simulator?

"If it doesn't please me then it's wrong."

All those YT videos where people just walk or drive through through the city for the experience must be mistaken.

 

[RekontVerlon]

However, I have to say I do genuinely love this game despite its massive flaws and absolute lies of what it was claimed to be and what some of the developers act like it actually is now. It's much improved from the release but far from what it was supposed to be.

I hope that the company were shocked enough by their own mess that the next game will avoid a lot of the problems this game has, because the empty world and missing features and badly implemented quests aren't there, in my opinion, due to incompetence because you can see different systems working in the game perfectly fine. Also upon release there were many gameplay systems that were clearly just ripped out at the last minute and replaced with what essentially was a minimally functioning placeholder system. Most of these have been edited or covered up now, but never really changed to a level that they were originally intended to be.

Actually, despite the huge amount of problems and deceitful marketing (I remind that the vehicles trailer still talks about the possibility of tuning sport cars), I like the game too, mostly after the 2.0 patch. With the latest updates the gameplay became more interesting and we got a more lively world.

Still, there's no way I'd pre-order their next game. Now I will only think about buying cd red games after they come out.

P.S. But I live in russia, so I can't buy games now anyway I'm stuck with the basic cyberpunk and can't even try the dlc.

 

[warlock75]

Or how most of the problems in the city are dealt with by mercs working for 3rd party fixers rather than anything organized by police, corps or other agencies (You'd think that if Fixers can earn a lot of money from hiring Mercs, corps would look to get a little action too. The entire setting is about corpos controlling everything, yet they're just letting one of the biggest powers in a city go unchecked?)

I do wonder why this wasn't a thing. It's one of the biggest things in Cyberpunk style RPGs. The Corps have interests and money to be made, so if a rival corp is doing something they don't like, or do like and want it, they hire mercs to go in so they don't appear responsible.

Everything seemed focused on the small scale gangs and minor businesses, not heading into corp research sites to steal a new development. The relic doesn't count as that was inside a hotel.

I do love that aspect, there's usually something nefarious going on in those places that make for great world building and tie ins to other jobs.

 

[MQK]

I don't even disagree with the two points he responded with. I agree the economy in the game is out of whack and I'm not a big fan of level scaling. But I find CDPR games to be pretty immersive as far as video games go. I think Night City itself is pretty amazing and they write better characters/stories than most other studios.

So I am genuinely asking him what games he thinks are more immersive. To me all major RPGs/RPG-like games that are immersive have some flaws.

I find Rockstar games to be impossibly boring - but I agree with the poster above that RDR2 is super immersive, probably surpassing Cyberpunk/Witcher in a lot of ways. I actually think their games are immersive to their detriment, since they at times can feel like a chore rather than something I am supposed to have fun with.

That is true, and this is why I am all the more irked by the gameplay aspects I mentioned. In my eyes they undermine the work put in the rest of the game. And if they were a matter of a budget, I wouldn't be so critical about them, and at the same time, I would have been more hopeful for the next game.

Additionally, CDPR's ambition when they announced the game, was far greater than "not being sub-par to other games" - if it was, there would be nothing to criticize.

Rockstar is definitely up there, but not my cup of tea either. In this case I think you probably mean to say that it feels like a chore because it is too close to reality. Immersion is too general of a word, but in this context the meaning I want to convey, is pretty much "make your mechanics more consistent to the lore" - not even the book/media cyberpunk lore, but the lore that already exists in the game.

Just to say, yes along your progression enemies health is increased, but your overall damages are also increased. So at the end, enemies don't become "health sponge" or it's because you still use the very first weapon you get in the game

The player's power increases throughout the game - if it didn't, given your gear upgrades and perks, it would be completely incoherent. The problem is that enemy real-time tuning is very noticeable - it is designed to be after all. To the point where the player can guess that e.g. a level up will make an enemy take 5 hits instead of 4 with their current gear, and seek to find something better to keep up with this meta real time tuning.

In essence you pull the player out of the game's world, and pit them directly against the developers' meta-tuning. No matter how subtle, it's still breaking the fourth wall. Is it as grievous as I make it out to be? No, if their aspiration is to make CP2 more of an Ubisoft-grade open world game. After all, save for the occasional Japanese GOTY winner, nearly everyone does it.

 

[RekontVerlon]

Additionally, CDPR's ambition when they announced the game, was far greater than "not being sub-par to other games" - if it was, there would be nothing to criticize.

Oh, I remember that, 'next generation open world'