Good point, I've also been looking out for a similar one with all known languages, no luck.Mataresa said:
Indeed, look at all the trouble that comes from simple miscommunication & misunderstanding due to language differences, nevermind the limitations imposed on global intellectual discourse.
But, we need the diversity too, and there is ancient wisdom hidden in languages as well, it is probably the finest example of a human "living tradition". I believe being bilingual, learning at least 2 languages from an early age, is good exercise for the mind too. A global language is happening, but we should all become multilingual by default.
Wichat said:
This is "too true for comfort". While there are some misunderstandings that are caused by language differences, you are right: most are caused by people who intentionally do not understand (and seek to blame language for their refusal to understand).
People who really need to speak to each other and understand each other come quickly to a common language they can use. From the Lübecker Platt among merchants and shipmen of the Hanseatic League to the Hawaii Creole sometimes still spoken in modern Hawaii, finding a common language is a natural process that we are all good at; it does not require legislation.
Kudos said:
We get a lot of talk of "English Only" legislation in the States; it was an issue even in the last Presidential primary. Other places, including Wichat's Catalunya, have a history of having languages imposed on them, too.
[Pres. Theodore Roosevelt, 1907; at the time, there was an effort to suppress Spanish as the language of territories taken in the Spanish-American War]
My point was that not even such efforts have an actual result of decreasing misunderstanding, because Wichat's statement that misunderstandings are actually the result of intentional refusal to understand is true.
Thats depressing, and of course reminds me that Irish very nearly went the way of Cornish during the last few generations. Narrowmindedness will lead us all down a dark hole.GuyN said:
I find this too suspicious an attitude to hold of other people, personally. Oh I agree it happens, but to a large extent? Is it not more likely that, even among people who share the same language, but with dissimilar life experience & education misunderstand eachother through differing interpretations of meaning, metaphor, and context?
On a side note, ideally *any* legislation for *anything* is the very last resort we should entertain to solve a problem. I prefer education as the silver bullet myself.
Purely speaking as a mathematically minded person, English might be fairly easy to learn, especially, because it seems to be omnipresent everywhere, but I am pretty sure, there are languages out there, that woud suit the job better, or might be created.
Yes, and for me it is the best and perfect way to learn a language. Through a linguist. Understand the logic and culture behind a language and understand, why it works the way it does. That is interesting. I am not a traditional person, but I like history, so seing it reflected in the language is an exciting thing indeed. Just like anecdotes make you remember certain things.
I cannot say, how it feels to get a language forced on you from the government, or anyone else. Of course we had to learn English in school, but still, it is not like we are forced to constantly use it. (Except certain terminology, where no proper German equivalent exists.) I would like to hear first hand experiences of this though, since I was not yet alive in the days of Luther, when we had to learn the new High-German.
A funny thing regarding English influences in the countries language in Germany at least is, that English terms are often misused. "Handy" for "Mobile Phone", "To Go" instead of "Take Away" and other examples. (Wikipedia just told me, that 100 years ago such a case already started with "Smoking" for a "Dinner Jacket".)
Or they are forced on us through media, because it sounds so "cool", when you use the English terms instead of perfectly valid words in your own language. But that happened with French and Latin in the past, so I guess, it is something natural.
We even created a term for that phenomenon, called "Denglisch" = "Deutsch" + "Englisch".
Can others supply me/us with examples from their languages?
Yes, and for me it is the best and perfect way to learn a language. Through a linguist. Understand the logic and culture behind a language and understand, why it works the way it does. That is interesting. I am not a traditional person, but I like history, so seing it reflected in the language is an exciting thing indeed. Just like anecdotes make you remember certain things.
I cannot say, how it feels to get a language forced on you from the government, or anyone else. Of course we had to learn English in school, but still, it is not like we are forced to constantly use it. (Except certain terminology, where no proper German equivalent exists.) I would like to hear first hand experiences of this though, since I was not yet alive in the days of Luther, when we had to learn the new High-German.
A funny thing regarding English influences in the countries language in Germany at least is, that English terms are often misused. "Handy" for "Mobile Phone", "To Go" instead of "Take Away" and other examples. (Wikipedia just told me, that 100 years ago such a case already started with "Smoking" for a "Dinner Jacket".)
Or they are forced on us through media, because it sounds so "cool", when you use the English terms instead of perfectly valid words in your own language. But that happened with French and Latin in the past, so I guess, it is something natural.
We even created a term for that phenomenon, called "Denglisch" = "Deutsch" + "Englisch".
Can others supply me/us with examples from their languages?
Mataresa said:A funny thing regarding English influences in the countries language in Germany at least is, that English terms are often misused. "Handy" for "Mobile Phone", "To Go" instead of "Take Away" and other examples. (Wikipedia just told me, that 100 years ago such a case already started with "Smoking" for a "Dinner Jacket".)
Or they are forced on us through media, because it sounds so "cool", when you use the English terms instead of perfectly valid words in your own language. But that happened with French and Latin in the past, so I guess, it is something natural.
We even created a term for that phenomenon, called "Denglisch" = "Deutsch" + "Englisch".
Can others supply me/us with examples from their languages?
In Hawaiian English, a cowboy (translation of Spanish "vaquero") is a "paniolo". The first ranch hands on Hawaii were Spanish-speaking Californios, but "español" is unpronounceable in Hawaiian, so they became "paniolo".
Usually, when loanwords get into another language, they preserve some traces of their origin, and these can themselves be interesting. For example, Edward VII (while he was still Prince of Wales) made popular the custom of wearing a tailless "smoking jacket" as evening dress, and even though the name changed in English ("dinner jacket", American "tuxedo"), it was kept in other languages.
"To go" is actually correct American, so that one is arguably not a misuse. You say "to go" when ordering take-away (American "take-out") food.
"Handy" has a historical antecedent. Early mobile phones were far from something you could hold in your hand.
The mobile phone boom dates to Motorola's 1973 development of a successful handheld phone. (Inventor Martin Cooper)
GuyN said:
My adopted country is a good example of that as well. They made Tagalog and English the national/official languages. Since large parts of the country don't/won't speak Tagalog, that makes English the preferred language.
Cool chart, but it doesn't show Hungarian or Finnish which oddly enough are related, both descended from the language spoken by the invading Huns.Kudos said:
vonGraudenz said:
Well, the stuff with the huns is still debatable as far as I know from the Finnougric faculties. But of course most Hungarians would love that. (Hence Attila being such a popular name.) Fact is, nobody actually knows exactly, where they came from. There are quite a few related little languages around the ural, so it is a good guess that they came from there. Nowadays, the only remaining resemblance between Finnish and Hungarian and the others is the gramatical structure, not the vocabulary, which is why the relationship was debated for so long. Another of the bigger representatives is Estonian.
What I wanted to say though is, Finnougric Languages are not related to the Indo-European languages as I understand it. (But of course this is only, what I learned in my language courses and I am not a scholar. ^^)
vonGraudenz said:
Nor does it have Estonian, Saami, Karelian, Turkish, or Euskara (Basque), because these are not Indo-European languages. As Mataresa pointed out, Finnish and its neighbors (Estonian, Saami, Karelian) are all closely related, and Hungarian is a distant relative. Turkish is not related to these, nor is Euskara.
But the thing that bugs me about these charts is the placement of English as a solely Germanic language. The mother of English may be Anglo-Saxon, but her father is Norman French, and the vocabulary and grammar of English are those of their little bastard.
Indeed. Folks like this blockhead make me very reluctant to admit I live in this state. I can imagine him playing a role in on of those backwards villages in a Witcher or Western game.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEPh_KlTyII[/media]
I always thought the Hungarian and Finnish languages were blended between the invaders and the natives so fell within the Indo-European realm. Gives me something to look into.