Romances: Disparity in quality and quantity

[seracy]

*snip*

I get your points, but the purpose of the list was to show that the male romances fall short in every aspect. Otherwise the list would be balanced. I expect each option to be different and interact differently.

Judy's side quest structure is similar to River's, but it works for Judy because she was included in the main plot and Judy/V bond over shared losses from the Heist. It becomes the foundation of their romance. Panam doesn't quite make that bond, so she got the gradual buildup with more scenes throughout the main story and her side chain. No such compensation for River/Kerry.

If you only consider how River/Kerry are fleshed out at this point, you can make the argument that their detachment makes sense. But who wrote their stories like this? It gives the impression that their neutral/non-romance content was written without consideration or influence of what the romance arcs would become while Judy and Panam were woven in throughout V's story. It does not feel like their romance content was considered in parallel throughout their development to ensure all players could enjoy a similar experience. It feels like their content was squeezed in however it would fit once everything else fell into place and the result is not at the same level as Judy or Panam.

 

[Guest 4412420]

Honestly you probably come off as the least salty of the Kerry/River club, your posts help beat back a bit of that crushing "the devs hate us and will pelt us with spitballs made of printouts of our feedback" doom and gloom that tends to set in after disappointing patches/announcements. You're very level-headed about it and it's appreciated, love seeing your name pop up

Thank you! I try to keep my sodium at minimum, because I don't want to come off as mean. I feel for the developers, I really do, but at the same time I am disappointed, because I expected a better and overall equal or close to equal experience.

In the grand scheme of things, romances aren't very important, but a lot of people enjoy them. I think CDPR know it too, but as we've already discussed, some of us were left disappointed and feeling that Kerry's and River's romances lack development. I still hold out hope, however little, that CDPR listened to us and that this will be one of the things they're willing to improve.

Basically, if romance don't add anything to the main story I think they should have either get rid of it(The Outer Worlds i think they did that exactly for that reason) or they should have created 2 female NPCs from scratch with side-quests like Kerry and River. Now, they are in a situation that they cannot solve at all: if they add extra content to equalize Kerry/River guess what will happen? If they add the same amount of content for the 4, objectively speaking the 4 NPCs will be still unbalanced.

In a way I agree with you. If CDPR didn't consider that if you make multiple romance options then all of them should have equally developed romances, then yeah, it would be better if they scrapped romances altogether for their future games. Personally, I don't need romances to enjoy games, but when I do try them, I expect equally developed romances across the board. Or rather, before Cyberpunk that's not something I even had to expect because it used to be a given.

I'm not opposed to Judy and Panam getting some new dialogue too. Especially if it'll save the developers from getting even more harassment. I know the imbalance will always be there. What I want is to have enough dialogue options for Kerry's and River's romances to make their connection with V to actually feel believable, like it doesn't come out of nowhere. If they added the same amount of romance specific dialogue that Panam already has for the guys, I'd be pretty damn happy.

You also mentioned the Outer Worlds, and honestly, I have a lot of respect for Obsidian. They've made it clear that they don't care for romances, and in their games that had romances they were equal. I'm stressing the word equal because despite Obsidian's feelings towards romances they made sure that people had very similar experiences in terms of content regardless of which character they chose to romance. CDPR for whatever reason didn't.

I said some posts ago, and I think that what they should have done is create two new female NPCs and link them to sidequest as Kerry/River for fairness... at least even if just covering that 4 options, people (who get an option) would have felt equally treated (say all 4 equal treatment as Kerry now?, longer if you feel that is needed) and the discussion would have been about depth of romance or people wanting more diversity of options/dialogs.

Personally, I think this would have been better. I'm talking from a personal experience but it's much easier to look at all romances equally lacking development, or certain characters being unavailable to romance and go: "I wish it was different, oh well."

Cyberpunk's romance situation is so different, I don't think I ever saw anything like this. I know games in the past like Mass Effect trilogy or RPGs from 90s or early 00s had imbalance too, but it was usually in terms of how many options each gender had (and same sex romances straight up not existing until Jade Empire, I believe) but even then romance options for female characters still had sufficient amount of romance development. I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Didacgomez]

Thank you! I try to keep my sodium at minimum, but it's not always easy. I feel for the developers, I really do, but at the same time I am disappointed, and I'm not going to hide my disappointment, because I truly expected better from them.

In the grand scheme of things, romances aren't very important, but a lot of people enjoy them. I think CDPR know it too, but as we've already discussed, some of us were left disappointed and feeling that Kerry's and River's romances lack development. I still hold out hope, however little, that CDPR listened to us and that this will be one of the things they're willing to improve.


In a way I agree with you. If CDPR struggle with the concept that if you make multiple romance options then all of them should have equally developed romances, then yeah, it would be better if they scrapped romances altogether for their future games. Personally, I don't need romances to enjoy games, but when I do try them, I expect equally developed romances across the board. Or rather, before Cyberpunk that's not something I even had to expect because it used to be a given.

I'm not opposed to Judy and Panam getting some new dialogue too. Especially if it'll save the developers from getting even more harassment. I know the imbalance will always be there. What I want is to have enough dialogue options for Kerry's and River's romances to make their connection with V to actually feel believable, like it doesn't come out of nowhere. If they added the same amount of romance specific dialogue that Panam already has for the guys, I'd be pretty damn happy.

You also mentioned the Outer Worlds, and honestly, I have a lot of respect for Obsidian. They've made it clear that they don't care for romances, and in their games that had romances they were equal. Equally underdeveloped in NWN2 main campaign, equally interesting in Mask of the Betrayer expansion. Romance options had equally little romance content in Deadfire. I'm stressing the word equal here because despite Obsidian's feelings towards romances they made sure that people had the same experience in terms of content regardless of which character they chose to romance. CDPR for whatever reason didn't.


Personally, I think this would have been better. I'm talking from a personal experience but it's much easier to look at all romances equally lacking development, or certain characters being unavailable to romance and go: "I wish it was different, oh well." For example, I wanted to romance Samara in Mass Effect trilogy, but since she wasn't an option it was easy to accept that and move on.

Cyberpunk's romance situation is so different, I don't think I ever saw anything like this. I know games in the past like Mass Effect trilogy or RPGs from 90s or early 00s had imbalance too, but it was usually in terms of how many options each gender had (and same sex romances straight up not existing until Jade Empire, I believe) but even then romance options for female characters still had sufficient amount of romance development. I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically agree with yous, that underdeveloped would have been better than unbalanced (I know people would have wanted balanced and deep). And that what would happen more likely-even if it doesn´t correct the unbalance- is that IF there is any new content it will be for all 4 not enough content to correct the situation...

I'm not sure about 90's/00's romance "line"-I think all RPGs save CP2077 that I have installed now are without romances, except Arcanum that has an incredible mix of race, alignment,intelligence,beauty and I don´t know what else as requirements and a recurring joke about a sheep-, but it could pretty well be since there is more awareness in the game industry in the last 20 years or so.

But I do agree, that if a studio adds some romance it should be all treated equally like your Obsidian examples, or Outer Worlds(Tyranny I think also doesn´t have romance option).

 

[koalahugs]

This has probably already been said before but often I wonder if the best solution would have been for the writers to commit to just ONE love interest, make their relationship a fundamental part of the main story, fully develop everything about it - but allow players to decide on that character's gender/appearance/etc before the game starts.

So basically a CC for that key character. Maybe have certain quests be different and interchangeable depending on what you pick so it's still a unique experience.

Because, honestly, I don't think ANY of the love interests in this game feel fully realised - obviously with River and Kerry it's worse and romantically feels very tokenistic, but hell even if you went with Panam, you're still missing out on the only love scene that feels like it has genuine human connection going on (Pyramid Song).
Plus they could've varied things depending on the nature and quality of the relationship, e.g. determining whether you ended up with the boat scene or the Pyramid Song scene or whatever. Or hell, more than one.
Potentially they could've had a character with the best bits of all their stories which might've produced a character with even more depth and complexity.

I dunno, it just seems like, as soon as you have multiple separate characters who are each romanceable, it immediately becomes impossible to fully develop any one relationship.

I mean, looking at Witcher 3, it's pretty clear that the most compelling love story in that game isn't ANY of the romantic ones, but the one between Geralt and Ciri. It was completely tied into the main plot, the climax, the falling action etc., so it had way more emotional impact. But even though their relationship was locked in, we could still affect the nature of it.

So yeah, I wonder if that would've been a better idea. Just a thought

 

[Didacgomez]

This has probably already been said before but often I wonder if the best solution would have been for the writers to commit to just ONE love interest, make their relationship a fundamental part of the main story, fully develop everything about it - but allow players to decide on that character's gender/appearance/etc before the game starts.

So basically a CC for that key character. Maybe have certain quests be different and interchangeable depending on what you pick so it's still a unique experience

This has cross my mind also in the past, but I'm not even sure that is legal (or a good idea in certain countries) to ask questions which might get recorded in a save file about one sexual preferences... but I'm not an expert on anti-discrimination laws/protection.

 

[Feline_Witcher]

This has probably already been said before but often I wonder if the best solution would have been for the writers to commit to just ONE love interest, make their relationship a fundamental part of the main story, fully develop everything about it - but allow players to decide on that character's gender/appearance/etc before the game starts.

So basically a CC for that key character. Maybe have certain quests be different and interchangeable depending on what you pick so it's still a unique experience.

Because, honestly, I don't think ANY of the love interests in this game feel fully realised - obviously with River and Kerry it's worse and romantically feels very tokenistic, but hell even if you went with Panam, you're still missing out on the only love scene that feels like it has genuine human connection going on (Pyramid Song).
Plus they could've varied things depending on the nature and quality of the relationship, e.g. determining whether you ended up with the boat scene or the Pyramid Song scene or whatever. Or hell, more than one.
Potentially they could've had a character with the best bits of all their stories which might've produced a character with even more depth and complexity.

I dunno, it just seems like, as soon as you have multiple separate characters who are each romanceable, it immediately becomes impossible to fully develop any one relationship.

I mean, looking at Witcher 3, it's pretty clear that the most compelling love story in that game isn't ANY of the romantic ones, but the one between Geralt and Ciri. It was completely tied into the main plot, the climax, the falling action etc., so it had way more emotional impact. But even though their relationship was locked in, we could still affect the nature of it.

So yeah, I wonder if that would've been a better idea. Just a thought

I prefer that the characters are not custom by the player, so they truly feel like other people

 

[koalahugs]

This has cross my mind also in the past, but I'm not even sure that is legal (or a good idea in certain countries) to ask questions which might get recorded in a save file about one sexual preferences... but I'm not an expert on anti-discrimination laws/protection.

???

Can you please explain what you're talking about? The game already has gay content in it. Why would a record of a character's sexual preferences be illegal? You can already see in the save file who V has romanced. Same with lots of other games like Mass Effect.

 

[Didacgomez]

???

Can you please explain what you're talking about? The game already has gay content in it. Why would a record of a character's sexual preferences be illegal? You can already see in the save file who V has romanced. Same with lots of other games like Mass Effect.

there might be people that follow a romance and they delete these save files, while if its part of creation process that data stays as long as you have the character...and in some countries, this might happen more than you can imagine.

 

[rippercityransom]

It was and overexageration on my side I apologize if somebody felt offended, although you know what I mean when comparing even if on-screen time is the same (phrases,dialog options, quality of quest).

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it like a 1:1 comparison, I was kind of playing along with the over-exaggeration while making the point that I really believe if River and Kerry had 2 hours/400 lines of actual quality content even if compared to 5-6 hours/1200 lines of Panam and Judy (not exact numbers, I can't for the life of me remember the breakdown) that the backlash in this thread wouldn't be as bad. Of course there will always be some complaint/feedback no matter what, but I think the way it is now the feedback has a hell of a lot more merit than general grumbling. But since we agree on their questionable quality that's kind of moot. You're not wrong that they've written themselves into an impossible corner I just want to see where they go from there. Not talking about it or taking no action at all will be more and more its own action as they start easing up on their communication lockdown. I think we agree for the most part, I'm just a little irate in general and typing just to get some useful thoughts out there in case devs really are around. Big apologies if it comes off as an attack or trying to shut you down.

Cyberpunk's romance situation is so different, I don't think I ever saw anything like this. I know games in the past like Mass Effect trilogy or RPGs from 90s or early 00s had imbalance too, but it was usually in terms of how many options each gender had (and same sex romances straight up not existing until Jade Empire, I believe) but even then male LIs still had sufficient amount of romance development. I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think you're wrong. I had typed up something like this earlier but was getting too wordy and deleted it. In the linked BioWare problem article he listed 15 choices for Mass Effect 3: there were only 3 men total. The saving grace was that at least 2 of the men, Kaidan and Garrus (not sure about Cortez), were well-written by themselves and when held up to the best of the 8 women. It takes the slight sting of having less choice away when at least your choices are good. Cyberpunk doesn't have the numbers for variety or the quality to make up for it so you're just kind of left scratching your head wondering what the thought process was.

 

[koalahugs]

there might be people that follow a romance and they delete these save files, while if its part of creation process that data stays as long as you have the character...and in some countries, this might happen more than you can imagine.

I'm really not following. CDPR chose to make a game with LGBT+ content, so why should they censor themselves to placate another country's trans/homophobia? Also what difference does it make anyway? If you own a copy of Cyberpunk you're already in possession of a game that includes that content in it. It's not like making V hetero changes that.

 

[GogRelvas]

An acknowledgement of it one way or the other, for the most part. If the writers are happy with what they did and have no plans on changing it because it was a choice, then I'd like to know so I can just stop following the game hoping for news as they work it out. Actual improvements would be like you said, patching in a few extra lines, eventually maybe expansions that don't leave them lagging behind again.


It's not even just about the writers though. River is literally broken still. Since day one he instantly hangs up on you and his niece and nephew are stuck in their beds staring at the wall. So less content, worse endings, and broken beyond their current ability to repair. As to whether or not it was malicious, it was definitely in poor taste. You know your game has only 4 options for one per orientation, and yet 2 of them are underdeveloped/rushed and hidden in side quests and both of them are the men. I don't want to assume, but since we're still in the information drought we only have guesses. The best case scenario in this being a stylistic choice is that they just didn't think straight women and gay men would want a good romantic storyline or the implications just slipped past them in their desire to write the story they wanted, and that just means I don't mesh well with their decisions and don't want more. Not really a critique of their skill, but just not agreeing with their choices. It happens. Someone in another post compared it to finally being invited to sit at the "CDPR makes the greatest RPGs" table as a straight woman or a gay man, but only getting leftovers. Accident, malicious, artistic license, whatever it was, it was a sucky feeling. It may not have been their intent, but it's part of the impact.


Halfway agree. If I had known it would be like this I probably wouldn't have played at all. I would have much preferred they make the game they wanted, been clear about it, and just not buy it than get another reminder of how demographic-driven the industry is. But I'd argue that people won't necessarily always be counting the screen time to the second. I never felt the need to compare between Garrus and Tali or Kaidan and Ashley because neither side felt half-finished, not anything like this.

Uau This

Post automatically merged: Aug 18, 2021

This has probably already been said before but often I wonder if the best solution would have been for the writers to commit to just ONE love interest, make their relationship a fundamental part of the main story, fully develop everything about it - but allow players to decide on that character's gender/appearance/etc before the game starts.

So basically a CC for that key character. Maybe have certain quests be different and interchangeable depending on what you pick so it's still a unique experience.

Because, honestly, I don't think ANY of the love interests in this game feel fully realised - obviously with River and Kerry it's worse and romantically feels very tokenistic, but hell even if you went with Panam, you're still missing out on the only love scene that feels like it has genuine human connection going on (Pyramid Song).
Plus they could've varied things depending on the nature and quality of the relationship, e.g. determining whether you ended up with the boat scene or the Pyramid Song scene or whatever. Or hell, more than one.
Potentially they could've had a character with the best bits of all their stories which might've produced a character with even more depth and complexity.

I dunno, it just seems like, as soon as you have multiple separate characters who are each romanceable, it immediately becomes impossible to fully develop any one relationship.

I mean, looking at Witcher 3, it's pretty clear that the most compelling love story in that game isn't ANY of the romantic ones, but the one between Geralt and Ciri. It was completely tied into the main plot, the climax, the falling action etc., so it had way more emotional impact. But even though their relationship was locked in, we could still affect the nature of it.

So yeah, I wonder if that would've been a better idea. Just a thought

Uauu this is briliant in my opinion. Create a Cloud's ideal version for the player

Post automatically merged: Aug 18, 2021

I love a streamers review on cyberpunk (she played one week early without day one patch) specially about how male sexualization was done differently from women's sexualization in the game (at afterlife all the dancers in tubes are female; Sandra Dorsett's companion in the tub now has underware, no sexualized male nocs vs sexualized female npcs) and this is even lore-unfriendly. The streamer is Madqueen I couldn't find the video just now. But one thing she says in it that I completely agree:
"They must get a horny female lead Designer!" (Or male gay I add or both - just don't let them alone together, just joking)

 

[Guest 4412420]

This has probably already been said before but often I wonder if the best solution would have been for the writers to commit to just ONE love interest, make their relationship a fundamental part of the main story, fully develop everything about it - but allow players to decide on that character's gender/appearance/etc before the game starts.

Although an interesting idea, I think this kind of character would take the term playersexual to a whole new level. And playersexual romance options is something CDPR wanted to avoid. Their attempt was good in theory, but didn't succeed in practice.

I think that 2 fully developed characters with equally developed romances would have been a better alternative to "customize your LI". One male, one female, both bisexual so that players of all sexualities and playstyle preferences would have an option. If 4 romance options were too much for CDPR to handle, then maybe working on only 2 would have been better.

 

[Feline_Witcher]

Although an interesting idea, I think this kind of character would take the term playersexual to a whole new level. And playersexual romance options is something CDPR wanted to avoid. Their attempt was good in theory, but failed in practice.

I think that 2 fully developed characters with equally developed romances would have been a better alternative. One male, one female, both bisexual so that players of all sexualities and playstyle preferences would have an option. If 4 romance options were too much for CDPR to handle, then maybe working on only 2 would have been better.

I don't know, I actually like that the romances have preferences, the playersexual system is unrealistic to the point it's a bit of a turn off IMHO and only kinda works in games such as Skyrim, Fallout or AC Odyssey (because they are open world, not too detailed RPGs). I'm glad they didn't go for that

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I dunno, it just seems like, as soon as you have multiple separate characters who are each romanceable, it immediately becomes impossible to fully develop any one relationship.

Why does it become impossible? It seems to me it's more accurate to say it becomes more difficult to have multiple fully fleshed out romances. More difficult is not equal to impossible. I think the solution to multiple romances is quite straightforward. Put the necessary time and effort into fleshing them out. All of them. If development isn't up to that task then the solution is equally simple. Don't put it in the game.

In this case it's water under the bridge. Hindsight... There the solution is also simple. Put the necessary time and effort into improving whatever is lacking. Alternatively.... don't and reap the criticism.

 

[Guest 4412420]

I don't know, I actually like that the romances have preferences, the playersexual system is unrealistic to the point it's a bit of a turn off IMHO and only kinda works in games such as Skyrim, Fallout or AC Odyssey (because they are open world, not too detailed RPGs). I'm glad they didn't go for that

Oh, I agree with you. Characters with defined sexualities and preferences are better than playersexual characters, in my opinion too. I just said that "customize your romance option's gender, sexuality, etc." sounded a bit like playersexual kind of thing to me.

Also, bisexual ≠ playersexual, but a lot of developers, writers, whoever don't seem to understand that.

 

[Alekzie]

Dear diary:
Today I checked the game and I noticed Team 1 (Panam and Judy) have yet gifted us with another beautiful detail: Judy's MaxTac uniform.
I just wished people who romanced Kerry and River could tell us if they added something new to their romances, even if it's a little detail or at least a new little text message, because god, it still annoys me that they can't enjoy a wholesome romance. Also, I wish someone could tell me if River's niece and nephew are still stuck in their beds after his loyalty mission.

Post automatically merged: Aug 19, 2021

Also, while Kerry wasn't involved in the main quest, he's a big part of Johnny's personal quest (...)

I understand what you say and it's true, their introductions felt natural. Issue with Kerry is that you can only start Johnny's mission almost at the end of the game (I still think the main story is waaaaay too short), so it gives you too little time to "get to know him" and "spend time with him"
Hell, Dino mentions Kerry ages before Johnny's mission start, saying he knows him and he could get V sneaked in one of his parties, cause Kerry likes him. If they wanted to introduce Kerry earlier to make the romances more balanced (timewise), they could have use Dino's comment and start a mission where he introduces you to Kerry and the first stages of his romance (or frienship) start.
But that's just my opinion.

 

[rippercityransom]

Also, I wish someone could tell me if River's niece and nephew are still stuck in their beds after his loyalty mission.

Alas, they appear to still be bed bound. River's phone call has also not been fixed. I cannot speak to any new text messages.

They gave Nibbles the cat new sleeping positions while these poor niblings are trapped in bed purgatory. The cat has a been given a tweak in 1.3 and River was not. There's really not much else to say. Rivermancers are really living the good life.

 

[larrackell]

Rivermancers are really living the good life.

We laugh to keep from crying.

 

[Guest 4412420]

Today I checked the game and I noticed Team 1 (Panam and Judy) have yet gifted us with another beautiful detail: Judy's MaxTac uniform.
I just wished people who romanced Kerry and River could tell us if they added something new to their romances, even if it's a little detail or at least a new little text message, because god, it still annoys me that they can't enjoy a wholesome romance.

I also saw a couple of screenshots of a heart made out of foodstuff in V's apartment, and people seem to think it's from Judy too. Will be interesting to know if it's really from her, cause I saw no such thing in my game.

As for Team 2. Nothing for the romance, but I noticed that Kerry's guitar no longer disappears when you go talk to him at his villa. Oh, and the lyrics to his songs on his laptop display correctly now. So... a point for Team 2?

 

[rippercityransom]

I also saw a couple of screenshots of a heart made out of foodstuff in V's apartment, and people seem to think it's from Judy too.

Ughhh, I was kinda hoping it was from Vik when he dropped off the DLC clothes. Completely out of character? Maybe, probably. Looking more into it, it looks like it goes with the other gift you get from her that they fixed in 1.3. So all together that's a shotgun, a MaxTac suit, the scuba suit in V's apartment from Pyramid Song, a picture on the wall, and a food heart. I was really hoping it was something from a neutral party so it was for everyone that came back to the game, even like a fourth-wall break drop from the devs themselves. Very. very sweet for the Judy-mancers, for our merry band of misfits? Ehhh...

So... a point for Team 2?

Gotta take those points where we can get 'em!

Idk if it's just the disappointment from hoping (ha!) maybe they would throw us a bone in 1.3 or the getting passed over for a fix by a naked cat (that I didn't even have in my game because I ate the cat food out of curiosity before I knew what it did) but I'm feeling pretty freakin' bleak about how close The Boys (and their fans) are to falling off the dev radar entirely. Knowing they fixed a few things that aren't game breaking in their corner, showing signs of life, sort of brightens things up.

Just wish they'd say something, I know we're not the 80% or whatever but we're here.