Serious theory: V is a rogue AI

[Ouroboros612]

MAJOR SPOILERS

Note: This is a serious theory I'm not posting this in jest

V is a rogue AI. It's a 4th wallbreak sort of, in that we, the player who is playing / roleplaying V, is a rogue AI from beyond the blackwall.

Short summary of events:

1: V is the real V until shot by Dex
2: A rogue AI uses the relic to hijack V's corpse
3: Lots of references to V being dead already, a walking corpse (Delamain AI, Judy conversation, and others)
4: Due to the engram activating, and the damage to the relic and V's brain. The rogue AI loses it's pre-possession memories. However, it inherits V's memories, thinking it is V. Blackwall V / The player - DOES NOT KNOW it's actually a rogue AI.

Lots of supporting evidence. The Blackwall hack visuals are used when V is shot and reboots. When fried by Placide, V reboots again (should be dead) and there is a memory transfer hint. New Hellman dialogue as well as PL dialogue. To mention a specific the AI Cerberus taunts V saying they don't even know who they are. Attaching some images here.

There are many more hints and clues pointing at this. It's sort of a reverse soulkiller, the soulkiller copies a human and digitizes it. The Blackwall rogue AI's are "de-digitized" and inherit a biological host. Ship of Theseus is somewhat relevant I think. If you replace the parts of a ship until every part is replaced, is it still the same ship?

In V's case. V actually died. The real V. From V's point of perspective, the bullet shot by Dex was the last thing he/she ever saw.
The one experiencing V's life from that point, is the rogue AI (the player). However we do not know we're not the original V. Because we inherited V's memories and body. So is it still V? Depends on your perspective I suppose. Has some dark philosophical implications. It is still V... but experienced by us.

The good news is that being digitized isn't such a bad ending anymore. Because it's the rogue AI, us , the player, from beyond the blackwall - beyond our computer screens - that is re-digitized. The real V died.

"V" is controlled by us. The rogue AI.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Well... I "seriously" don't believe it
I wonder, dialogue lines with Hellman are "alternative" dialogue lines if you completed Phantom Liberty before finding him or just a "montage" to support your theory?

 

[Mika_67]

Alt doesnt recognise V as an AI. She has attacked "something- dont remember" with AI army. Silverhand say Alt something like: we have human factor this time. So... Silverhand and Alt think V is human.

 

[Avalon_railguns]

Alt doesnt recognise V as an AI. She has attacked "something- dont remember" with AI army. Silverhand say Alt something like: we have human factor this time. So... Silverhand and Alt think V is human.

But later, when Silverhand and V meet at Mikoshi, Johnny tells V, "Welcome to the club!"

 

[LeKill3rFou]

But later, when Silverhand and V meet at Mikoshi, Johnny tells V, "Welcome to the club!"

"Welcome to the club" meaning welcome to the club of the engrams and welcome the club of those whom no one care about their opinion. So yes, you might consider V as an AI after being fired by Soulkiller, but not sooner

 

[Avalon_railguns]

"Welcome to the club" meaning welcome to the club of the engrams and welcome the club of those whom no one care about their opinion. So yes, you might consider V as an AI after being fired by Soulkiller, but not sooner

Of course. Silverhand's engram opinion never bothers anyone. Absolutely no one cares about it the entire game. Neither when Silverhand discusses corporate tyranny, nor when he complains about Arasaka, not when he wants to make peace with Rogue, not when he discusses Panam or Judy, not when he foresees Reed or So Mi's betrayal - nobody cares.
It's a very strong thesis - we go through the entire game with an engram voice in our head whose opinion never interests anyone.
I agree, by the way - this automatically makes Arasaka's ending (my favorite), where Johnny is removed from V's head like a virus, the only correct one.

Thanx ))

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I agree, by the way - this automatically makes Arasaka's ending (my favorite), where Johnny is removed from V's head like a virus, the only correct one.

Yeah, sure, the ending in which the biggest "devil" ever become immortal, and Arasaka become more powerful than it ever been... seem "good"

 

[mightymatt27]

3: Lots of references to V being dead already, a walking corpse (Delamain AI, Judy conversation, and others)

How does that point to an AI? We already know that that relic was made to install an engram on a dead body. This isn't hinted at, it's literally spelled out for us. That's what all those V being a walking corpse references are. This isn't some complicated Inception level plot.

Same with your Helman screens shots.

That's V, a person who knows jack about the subject matter asking questions of Helman... the guy who is the expert. This no more hints at V=AI than if V asked about about fairies being downloaded to her head. Now if these possibilities came from Helman, if HE was being quoted in your screen caps, that would be something worth considering.

 

[Avalon_railguns]

Yeah, sure, the ending in which the biggest "devil" ever become immortal, and Arasaka become more powerful than it ever been... seem "good"

Family values...Mutual trust...The attention of the most beautiful woman in the City (and the best singer!) - Hanako... Revolutionary technology in the service of progress. Old friends close by - Oda, Takemura, Hellman...
If only Saburo could help Colonel Hansen recover from his wounds!
What a friendship that would make - V, Hansen and Saburo...The Three Musketeers in the flesh !!!!

 

[mightymatt27]

It's a very strong thesis - we go through the entire game with an engram voice in our head whose opinion never interests anyone.

Can you clarify that a bit? I'm not sure what you mean or are getting at with "nobody caring about Johnny's opinion" For most of the game V is the only one he can even talk to.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Family values...Mutual trust...The attention of the most beautiful woman in the City (and the best singer!) - Hanako... Revolutionary technology in the service of progress. Old friends close by - Oda, Takemura, Hellman...

"Family values" only matter if your name is Arasaka... If not, your just an insignificant "tool" with for only purpose to serve Saburo's goals and a tool that Saburo is ready to "sacrifice" without remorse if it's required...
As reminder, Saburo considered turning Night City to ashes (i.e nuke the city) to prevent the Relic to be stolen... It's only thanks to Hanako he "wait" to discuss with Yorinobu before doing it. And "turning to hash" means that everyone in Night City would die and those work for Arasaka (the family as you say) included.

 

[Avalon_railguns]

"Family values" only matter if your name is Arasaka... If not, your just an insignificant "tool" with for only purpose to serve Saburo's goals and a tool that Saburo is ready to "sacrifice" without remorse if it's required...
As reminder, Saburo considered turning Night City to ashes (i.e nuke the city) to prevent the Relic to be stolen... It's only thanks to Hanako he "wait" to discuss with Yorinobu before doing it. And "turning to hash" means that everyone in Night City would die and those work for Arasaka (the family as you say) included.

Any Babylon has to be destroyed.
The Tower of Etemenaki will see the sands of oblivion, sooner or later...
There is no hope. There never was ))
Only the love of a daughter for her father can delay the inevitable...Love is beautiful, but it is only a delay )

Post automatically merged: Apr 9, 2024

Can you clarify that a bit? I'm not sure what you mean or are getting at with "nobody caring about Johnny's opinion" For most of the game V is the only one he can even talk to.

I could be wrong. It seemed to me that Silverhand's opinion in this game could well be dispensed with, and he's just a virus written on a chip.
This is my subjective assessment of the game, I'm only human ))

 

[mightymatt27]

I could be wrong. It seemed to me that Silverhand's opinion in this game could well be dispensed with, and he's just a virus written on a chip.
This is my subjective assessment of the game, I'm only human ))

"Im only human"... mmmmm hmm. Sounds EXACTLY like something an AI would say! (joking, please to sell me out to your AI overlords)

it's well established throughout the game that Johnny is an engram, not just some virus. Which, if you didn't quite catch it, that's fine. I'm not trying to throw shade at you, I just don't have the time at this moment to throw out specifics

This is why when he says "welcome to the club" he's referring to the "engram club". (as @LeKill3rFou mentioned) Alt even "explains the joke" when she tells V she backed them up and an engram in order to disentangle V and Johnny. This also points to why this V=AI idea just doesn't hold up.

As for his opinion. I'm not sure how people receive his option is relevant to whether he in an engram or a virus or V being an AI. In life he was a pretty disruptive person. If he didn't burn a bridge he was at least setting parts of it on fire. So yeah, people who knew him, in general, will have some level of dismissiveness, because one gets tired of dealing with that kind of person regardless of if they are right or wrong.

I will say, Rogue isn't dismissive of Johnny. She believes it's him in Vs body, she's open to going after Smasher, she'll join up for the final fight if asked. There's also Kerry.

 

[Avalon_railguns]

"Im only human"... mmmmm hmm. Sounds EXACTLY like something an AI would say! (joking, please to sell me out to your AI overlords)

it's well established throughout the game that Johnny is an engram, not just some virus. Which, if you didn't quite catch it, that's fine. I'm not trying to throw shade at you, I just don't have the time at this moment to throw out specifics

This is why when he says "welcome to the club" he's referring to the "engram club". (as @LeKill3rFou mentioned) Alt even "explains the joke" when she tells V she backed them up and an engram in order to disentangle V and Johnny. This also points to why this V=AI idea just doesn't hold up.

As for his opinion. I'm not sure how people receive his option is relevant to whether he in an engram or a virus or V being an AI. In life he was a pretty disruptive person. If he didn't burn a bridge he was at least setting parts of it on fire. So yeah, people who knew him, in general, will have some level of dismissiveness, because one gets tired of dealing with that kind of person regardless of if they are right or wrong.

I will say, Rogue isn't dismissive of Johnny. She believes it's him in Vs body, she's open to going after Smasher, she'll join up for the final fight if asked. There's also Kerry.

I've been getting certain suspicions lately that I'm a chatbot...but that's not important here.
Leaving Johnny aside - after all, Silverhand could be anyone, that's not what the topic is about.

Is V an AI? No, given your arguments - with one caveat: if everything V sees feels and hears is real. What if it's an artificial dream, and V is undergoing intensive therapy, such as at the Arasaka Clinic, where time flows retrospectively? What if he is being forced to relive some memories and reconsider his involvement in some events? What if everything we see in the game through V's eyes is an artificial fishbowl, a matrix? ) A complex set of algorithms ))

Why does V, and he alone, see Tarot graffiti on the walls of the city? Such drawings are implanted directly into V's consciousness, bypassing perceptual abilities - meaning that the process of contact with the AI is initiated, that someone or something is trying to tune into V's perception by forcibly downloading some data into it, as if with good intentions.

Why does V survive the numerous connections to the Black Wall relatively painlessly, while the hapless So Mi Blackwall just gets devoured time after time? I still have some questions.

* In this approach, Silverhand isn't even an AI - it's just a program written on a chip designed to bring V's consciousness back to the perception of objective reality by engaging deep neural connections. It's just a mechanism in the hands of neurosurgeons, while the real Vee is lying around in a container or an Ilithid capsule somewhere, like the Reverend Rach Barthmos, for example.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Why does V survive the numerous connections to the Black Wall relatively painlessly, while the hapless So Mi Blackwall just gets devoured time after time? I still have some questions.

Well, I don't have question
So Mi use the black wall likely since years for Myers while V only few times and will die anyway... I have no doubt it would have the same effect on V after a years and countless connections to the black wall.
It's like comparing someone who smoke since decades who will die because of it and you, you only smoke tens cigarets and state, I'm fine... strange

 

[Avalon_railguns]

Well, I don't have question
So Mi use the black wall likely since years for Myers while V only few times and will die anyway... I have no doubt it would have the same effect on V after a years and countless connections to the black wall.
It's like comparing someone who smoke since decades who will die because of it and you, you only smoke tens cigarets and state, I'm fine... strange

I'm envious :'(
After each session, So Mi ends up in a hospital bed, loses her memory, ends up in a wheelchair... Reed is always dancing around, trying to pretend to help her...A whole bunch of neurosurgeons from Militech are hanging around with their data scanners...I haven't seen anything like that around V.
Voodoo kids in the church infect him with a virus, throw him on a date with Alt Cunningham... He went through the barrier on his own - fine... So Mi hits him over the head with the BlackWall, sends him to save the President...hits him a second time, turns off Johnny Silverhand...Normal. The stress, the shooting, Hansen's soldiers...who cares? V hooks up with voodoo boy Slider, dirty underground clinic in Dogtown, BlackWall again.... Uh-huh. A direct hookup to the BlackWall at Hansen's party..... that's good. The list could go on right up to the Cynosura bunker or the Orbital Air launch pad.

 

[mightymatt27]

After each session, So Mi ends up in a hospital bed, loses her memory, ends up in a wheelchair... Reed is always dancing around, trying to pretend to help her...A whole bunch of neurosurgeons from Militech are hanging around with their data scanners...I haven't seen anything like that around V.

Voodoo kids in the church infect him with a virus, throw him on a date with Alt Cunningham... He went through the barrier on his own - fine... So Mi hits him over the head with the BlackWall, sends him to save the President...hits him a second time, turns off Johnny Silverhand...Normal. The stress, the shooting, Hansen's soldiers...who cares? V hooks up with voodoo boy Slider, dirty underground clinic in Dogtown, BlackWall again.... Uh-huh. A direct hookup to the BlackWall at Hansen's party..... that's good. The list could go on right up to the Cynosura bunker or the Orbital Air launch pad.

Voodoo's try to fry V, yes, they survive thanks to the relic.

V gets through the Blackwall because of Johnny and his connection to Alt.

Songbird being able to connect to the Blackwall was a project. Like any project it took time, trial and error, etc. I assume that's what you were referring to talking about "So Mi ending up in bed after each session". That was the process of that project and here getting borged out to handle it as the learned how to "master" it.

I'm trying to think of how V is directly connecting to the Blackwell at Hansen's party. The only this I recall is when So Mi is connecting to V to communicate. That is way different than a direct Blackwall connection.

So Mi connect to V with the Blackwall, yes, but it wasn't "normal", it kicked the crap out. of them the first time. Yes afterwards Songbird was able to connect via black wall because she already had the connection established. She explains this when she first connects.

Slider got fried, at least in part, because V has the relic which (somehow) help facilitate the connect. His risk in helping locate SoMi and establish that link was much greater and that wasn't exactly a picnic for V either.

And that's the problem, in this story the relic is a thing that exists in it and functions in ways that explain everything that's being attributed to the V is an AI idea. Meanwhile there is zero suggestion of V being an AI, just observations of "oh that's weird" must be AI. It's pure assertion backed up with "yeah but what if".

Even IF half your arguments didn't already have explanations, it wouldn't justify claiming V is AI because there's nothing solid to point to that. How does the AI get there? There's nothing in the OP's hypothesis that covers that. (though I genuinely do appreciate the presentation)

The relic and the engrams are solidly established in the story. Do we really think Vic can't tell the difference between the relic overwriting V's consciousness versus overwriting an AI? Does Helman, the foremost expert on the relic, not know the difference either? How about the Netwatch guy? The Voodoos were looking for an AI beyond the Blackwall, they'd crap their pants with glee if V turned out to be an AI. What about the Alt the actual AI? I believe the law of "it takes one to know one" applies here.

There is way too much establishing V's condition as exactly what it is and nothing point to them being a secret AI. Running with that hypothesis is to say every expert in this game world is useless to the point of absurdity.

** small edits because I saw I was repetitive in some areas. many apologies for those subjected to it.

 

[Avalon_railguns]

To be perfectly frank, I personally don't like the theory presented by the author of the thread, exactly in the way he (or she ) felt necessary to do it either. Regardless of the fact that the theory has some very interesting implications, I personally find it marginal, and perhaps even destructive to the game's plot (although witty).

I have a few theories of my own about how the relationship between V and AI plays out, as well as how it could or will play out. My theories don't quite coincide with the topicstarter's point of view, but I consider it incorrect and wrong for me to substitute the subject of discussion here.
At the same time, I have to say that, abstractly speaking, the theory can still be salvaged, and all the critical argumentation is not entirely valid either (except for the topic author's view, all other viewpoints here are skeptical, including my own, actually ).

Question: should I continue to be «advocatus diaboli» here? I think no. Let the proponents of the theory speak.

On the other hand, if there is an opportunity to participate in a discussion on "V and AI", only in a less radical version, I would be glad to join. I apologize - but for some reason I can't/don't know how to create my own threads on the forum yet ). As soon as I learn how to do it, I'll explain my own view of the situation with AI right away
P.S. I have something here, just for beginning... Careful, that's a lot of letters: AI and mankind

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2024

Voodoo's try to fry V, yes, they survive thanks to the relic.

V gets through the Blackwall because of Johnny and his connection to Alt.

Songbird being able to connect to the Blackwall was a project.

Naah, a one-sided interpretation of events...

The problem is that you and the author of the topic are both right and wrong at the same time )

 

[mightymatt27]

To be perfectly frank, I personally don't like the theory presented by the author of the thread, exactly in the way he (or she ) felt necessary to do it either. Regardless of the fact that the theory has some very interesting implications, I personally find it marginal, and perhaps even destructive to the game's plot (although witty).....

Question: should I continue to be «advocatus diaboli» here? I think no. Let the proponents of the theory speak.

Oh thank goodness. I'm also kinda done, for the moment, with this tangent of the topic as well and I'm also becoming concerned it's wobbling off of Ouroboros612's hypothesis.

And I 100% agree that while it's interesting, the concept "flips the game board" and I'm not sure there's a way it can do that and work.